fragmenting round for deer?
- Thread starter trigga
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What you think M118 175 gr is? That's ammo loaded with SMK 175 grain bullets used by military for long range shooting, and they are not punching paper either, SMK is great hunting bullet, but explosive when penetrates through tough bone...
here some HPBT some Berger Hunting VLD's some SMK
here some HPBT some Berger Hunting VLD's some SMK
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ClickClickD'oh
Member
Man, we have got to get you hunting some better parts of Texas. Get down south by Uvalde or on a properly managed hill country ranch. We have does that weigh in at 130. You can just imagine what the bucks top out at.
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Sierra makes it pretty clear regarding SMK's and hunting.
FAQ's from the Sierra Web Sight
Question.
Can I use a MatchKing bullet for deer hunting?
They shoot just great in my rifle, so they should be just super for hunting use, right?
Answer,
No, it's not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics, and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting.
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Guys it just doesn't get anymore direct or clear than that right form the Sierra web site.
H&H
FAQ's from the Sierra Web Sight
Question.
Can I use a MatchKing bullet for deer hunting?
They shoot just great in my rifle, so they should be just super for hunting use, right?
Answer,
No, it's not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics, and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting.
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Guys it just doesn't get anymore direct or clear than that right form the Sierra web site.
H&H
In lieu of posting something and someone posting the almost exact same information later or trying to make a general statement out of a specific statement, I'll ask a question instead.
What is the purpose of any hunting/defensive bullet?
Bexar
What is the purpose of any hunting/defensive bullet?
Bexar
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let me track bullet path of 155 SMK, it hit 6 pointer just below his nose, then traveled through upper jaw destroying all of the teeth and bones on its path then in to the skull, where I guess fragments stopped, it was a mess I can tell you that much... But I see no reason why SMK can't be used as hunting bullet.
DIM:
DIM, A person that knows their bullet/rifle capabilites and chooses their shot accordingly can kill a trainload of deer with a single-shot 22 Short.
Know your bullet/rifle capabilities, choose your shot accordingly, and use any bullet you want to.
Bexar
let me track bullet path of 155 SMK, it hit 6 pointer just below his nose, then traveled through upper jaw destroying all of the teeth and bones on its path then in to the skull, where I guess fragments stopped, it was a mess I can tell you that much... But I see no reason why SMK can't be used as hunting bullet.
DIM, A person that knows their bullet/rifle capabilites and chooses their shot accordingly can kill a trainload of deer with a single-shot 22 Short.
Know your bullet/rifle capabilities, choose your shot accordingly, and use any bullet you want to.
Bexar
I remember the day when I used 130 gr SGK from my 270, I had good shot placement both lung and scratch on the liver bullet exited with a quarter size hole, that buck ran another 150 - 200 yards, there was good blood trail so I had no problem to track him, but game kings are meant for hunting but where is expansion of the bullet, SMK would stopped him on the spot after tumbling and exploding in the middle of the chest...
scythefwd
Member
click click - a 130 lb doe isn't that big. It's about average in the midwest. In IL, we have 200lb dressed bucks get checked pretty much every year.
And a 190 gr. chunk of lead at approximately 2600 fps will kill a 200+ lb. buck graveyard dead within a 300 yard shot IF placed in the heart-lung region.
Don't convert my specific statement about 130lb, (mid-size) deer shot through his chest cavity into trying to cover a general situation that covers every size deer shot at every angle.
Now, if you want a bullet that will principally work on a 200+ pound Illinois whitetail or 325+ lb. Saskatchewan grain fed whitetail by shooting them in their butts and hoping it will take out their kidneys, liver, punch through their grass stuffed paunch then take out their heart and lungs by all means use a properly constructed bullet of 400 grains at approx. 2500 FPS in a .460 Weatherby magnum.
The original poster did not ask for an opinion on buckzilla but a question on if, imagine a bigger round. is it just too much carnage? he also referenced it's use on a mid-size deer along with a question about the effect of a larger caliber.
To answer such a question would require a description and reason for the 'jello' effect as mentioned by several other posters. Now, to answer his too much carnage question, I am an advocate of doing as much damage to affect an outcome as is reasonably necessary. At some point reasonableness becomes ridiculousness and therefore not only wasteful but by progression...uncalled for.
I like the jello effect and I do not consider it too much carnage...to a point.
Bexar
Don't convert my specific statement about 130lb, (mid-size) deer shot through his chest cavity into trying to cover a general situation that covers every size deer shot at every angle.
Now, if you want a bullet that will principally work on a 200+ pound Illinois whitetail or 325+ lb. Saskatchewan grain fed whitetail by shooting them in their butts and hoping it will take out their kidneys, liver, punch through their grass stuffed paunch then take out their heart and lungs by all means use a properly constructed bullet of 400 grains at approx. 2500 FPS in a .460 Weatherby magnum.
The original poster did not ask for an opinion on buckzilla but a question on if, imagine a bigger round. is it just too much carnage? he also referenced it's use on a mid-size deer along with a question about the effect of a larger caliber.
To answer such a question would require a description and reason for the 'jello' effect as mentioned by several other posters. Now, to answer his too much carnage question, I am an advocate of doing as much damage to affect an outcome as is reasonably necessary. At some point reasonableness becomes ridiculousness and therefore not only wasteful but by progression...uncalled for.
I like the jello effect and I do not consider it too much carnage...to a point.
Bexar
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scythefwd
Member
Bexar - my point about size is that "mid sized deer" is different depending on where you are hunting. A 130 dressed doe in IL is midsized deer to someone from around there but a big or monster deer in other parts of the country. The larger caliber is fine as long as the shot is good. That is where the whole issue is, if you can get a good clean shot at the boiler room, then go for it but you will limit yourself to certain shots. I wouldn't want a BT in my gun if I was trying to take a shot on a deer quartering towards me in the woods. I'd rather have something a little more substantial like a corelokt (though I use even better built stuff when I make my own ammo).
If I could jello the insides and keep the penetration, I'd love it. As it stands, I'd rather have a good mushrooming bullet than a grenade because it will work in more situations.
If I could jello the insides and keep the penetration, I'd love it. As it stands, I'd rather have a good mushrooming bullet than a grenade because it will work in more situations.
If I could jello the insides and keep the penetration, I'd love it. As it stands, I'd rather have a good mushrooming bullet than a grenade because it will work in more situations.
I can't argue with a man that knows what he wants, what he needs, and what he is talking about.
Bexar
I can't argue with a man that knows what he wants, what he needs, and what he is talking about.
Bexar
scythefwd
Member
Bexar - I can only claim 1 of those attributes.. I'll let you guess which one.
I've killed a lot of whitetail over 20+ years and I've learned a couple things:
I cannot predict what will happen on impact. I've had bang-flop sometimes and I've had to track others - after the same boiler room shot. No rhyme or reason I could tell.
I'll take penetration, mushroom and pass-through over fragmentation. The former works 100 percent of the time with proper placement. Fragmentation is effective and dramatic, but relying on it introduces unnecessary risk. The shot has to be right and the bullet can't hit bone. Too iffy for me, as I prefer sure, clean kills and have personally seen where reliance on fragmentation failed more than once.
JME. YMMV.
I cannot predict what will happen on impact. I've had bang-flop sometimes and I've had to track others - after the same boiler room shot. No rhyme or reason I could tell.
I'll take penetration, mushroom and pass-through over fragmentation. The former works 100 percent of the time with proper placement. Fragmentation is effective and dramatic, but relying on it introduces unnecessary risk. The shot has to be right and the bullet can't hit bone. Too iffy for me, as I prefer sure, clean kills and have personally seen where reliance on fragmentation failed more than once.
JME. YMMV.
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Sav .250
Member
Are you looking for ....massive damage or a clean kill?
scythefwd
Member
sav.250 those aren't mutually exclusive. You can have a clean kill with massive damage. You can also have massive damage without a kill at all.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Stop shooting the small ones.
What I'm saying is that when a herd is properly managed Texas grows 130lb does and 220-250lb bucks, just like northern deer.
The "texas sized deer" thing is a myth that got perpetuated by decades of poor management leading to stunted animal growth. Proper herd management that cuts out starvation and prevents growth stunting allows the local genetics to show what the deer are really capable of... which is full sized White Tail.
OK if you go conventional way then I would suggest using Horonady Interlocks, from my 308 I use 165 gr Interlocks, its proven bullet very good expansion last year I had buck shot in the boiler just below apex of its heart, both lungs and one leg femur bone destroyed on exit, that thing ran another 80 - 100 yards, this time I brought my dog to track him , my dog found him quickly and chase him another 50 yards into my neighbors property, where buck expired, right in front of my neighbor's hunting blind... So next buck I hunted got 155 gr SMK and the head shot was the reason for them not to run, he was walking to close to the border line...
If a heavy high velocity fragmenting, tumbling bullet had been used then there is a higher possibility of a greater wounding/damage effect than a misplaced shot with a mushrooming bullet. More energy is dumped into the target causing greater hydrostatic shock/damage with a fragmenting round along with fragmentation increasing the possibility of damaging major vascular, pulmonary or nerve structures. Hence the aforementioned jello effect.
The OP asked about larger caliber bullets causing more damage in a fragmenting bullet and about the resulting carnage; he did not ask about bullet placement. However, a fragmenting bullet, again, will distribute more of it's kinetic energy into a target, distributed over a larger area, than a mushrooming bullet that distributes a large majority of it's energy in the dirt on the other side of the deer.
If a larger frontal area, aka: mushroom effect, was the important consideration for wounding effect in an animal then why not just start off with a 45-70 and be done with it. The 45-70 will certainly expand a little with a soft point and will also break major bones and push on through to the other side and shake the tree it hits behind the deer. A competent rifle shooter can accurately place a shot into the vitals of a deer at 300 yards with an accurate 45-70 and he's already starting with a bullet pre-expanded at initial impact on the deer as opposed to having to pass through the deer's body cavity while expanding.
ooops...gotta go.
Bexar
The OP asked about larger caliber bullets causing more damage in a fragmenting bullet and about the resulting carnage; he did not ask about bullet placement. However, a fragmenting bullet, again, will distribute more of it's kinetic energy into a target, distributed over a larger area, than a mushrooming bullet that distributes a large majority of it's energy in the dirt on the other side of the deer.
If a larger frontal area, aka: mushroom effect, was the important consideration for wounding effect in an animal then why not just start off with a 45-70 and be done with it. The 45-70 will certainly expand a little with a soft point and will also break major bones and push on through to the other side and shake the tree it hits behind the deer. A competent rifle shooter can accurately place a shot into the vitals of a deer at 300 yards with an accurate 45-70 and he's already starting with a bullet pre-expanded at initial impact on the deer as opposed to having to pass through the deer's body cavity while expanding.
ooops...gotta go.
Bexar
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