Friend got harassed by the police for OC

[Halo]

On the subject of incorporation, from Wikipedia:

Justice Felix Frankfurter, however, felt that the incorporation process ought to be incremental, and that the federal courts should only apply those sections of the Bill of Rights whose abridgment would "shock the conscience," as he put it in Rochin v. California (1952).

Well it certainly shocks my conscience that millions of people in "the land of the free" are denied the means of self-defense by the power of law!

 

[Deanimator]

I agree however there are ways to go about protesting/resisting this and being polite and listening to the officer for 5 minutes and saying ok once or twice then go do what you want to do, beets being held up for hours for arguing with a guy that has no clue. Report the officer later.

NO, I am NOT going to listen to somebody misstate the law, or even worse express his intention to BREAK it for five minutes or five seconds. I wouldn't listen to some Islamist nutcase harangue me about how women have to wear burqas or how I can't eat a bacon cheeseburger, much less how he's going to behead people who do. I have no more duty to listen to a cop misstate the law or state his intention to commit criminal acts and or civil torts against me. People have the right to their opinions, even mind numbingly stupid opinions. They DON'T have the right to impose those opinions on a captive audience by force or the threat thereof. I don't care one whit if your name is Abu Musab al Bubba or Officer Friendly.

"Am I free to leave?"

If the answer is no, there are going to be consequences and I'm more than willing to spend a few hours in jail to impose those consequences, especially given that those few hours in jail are prima facie evidence of crimes and civil torts against me, with the perpetrator's signature on the dotted line. If the cop's co-workers hear he's living in his mom's basement and his wife's leaving him because he can't pay the bills, others will think twice about waxing idiotic at gunpoint.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Eric F said,

Lets see hers an attitude! Stand there and argue get arrested sit in a holding cell for an hour or two while possibly car gets impounded then spens another 2 hours getting it out oh yeah now pay for a cab or wait for a ride to resume your life.........and what did you get in the end if not charged? 4-8 hours of your life waisted. And thats if you never got charged, now if you did get charged you get to waist say 2 hours in court for an areignment and another 2-6 hours for your case to be heard, then the sentence if found guilty.................hey its your time I guess you would like to deal with all the hassel.

And the cop who decided, on his own, "You don't need to...", gets a pass (again) after harassing and intimidating another honest, peaceable citizen who's only offense was exercising his right to carry openly and going about his business. Any cop who would give a peaceable citizen a hard time for exercising his right to carry openly, isn't worthy of his office. The worst part is, his fellow officers WON"T square him away.

It sickens me when this type of conversation starts, and the common reply is..."Why don't you just get your CWP, CHL, CCW, and you won't have to worry about it." That, my friends, is the root of the problem.

What that question means is, what you should do is beg for and receive permission from the State to do what you have a natural right to do. Then your betters will benevolently permit you to go about your business unmolested. That is, as long as you have your permission slip with you.

I don't suppose it matters. The "us vs. them" mentality is so fully entrenched that this whole discussion is moot. The answer is to get more people to open carry where ever it is legal. It should become so commonplace as to not raise an eyebrow anywhere.

 

[zxcvbob]

First of all, I would have walked away in the middle of the lecture.

Sounds like a good way to cost your self more time being lectured.

Or a bullet in the back.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I've pondered this thread a bit before replying.
You want to know what I think?

(too damn bad I'm gonna tell ya anyway ).

I think Chris in VA is a TRUE friend.

How many of YOUR "friends" (or mine for that matter) would stick around and back you in such a situation? Not too damn many I can tell you.

Hell I had my own wife once say to me "oh do we have to go through this AGAIN?" when I refused to disarm to go to a posted movie theater. I can just imagine the grief I'd endure if there were an "official" confrontation.

(P.S. to my friends. It is, however, fully acceptable for you to stand back and just be a witness to the situation in case I need you in court later! <grin>)

 

[bnkrazy]

I'm surprised at the number of people that admit they would let a cop illegally deny them a right to avoid a hassle or because they wouldn't want to be inconvenienced for a few hours or days.

I know it might be hard for you to miss out on that steak dinner you were looking forward to or the game you were going to watch later that evening if you're sitting in a patrol car or cell.

Imagine if the Founding Fathers had your attitude. You don't have to imagine. Just take a look across the pond and you'll see where we'd be. And, that's where we will be if everyone adopts the attitude some of you have. Sure, things are heading in the right direction on the Federal level, but I can think of a few states that have a long way to go. And the only thing that will help in those states in the near future is people taking a risk to get the system corrected.

If you don't want to stand up for your rights, that's fine. Instead, stand up for future generations. I don't want to have to tell my grandson about how it used to be "in the good old days". And, I'll do all I can to make sure I never have to.

 

[Eric F]

I'm surprised at the number of people that admit they would let a cop illegally deny them a right to avoid a hassle or because they wouldn't want to be inconvenienced for a few hours or days.

Whats the real alternative here in this case? 1 put your gun away (rights violated through intemidation)
2. listen to the officer and say ok then go about your business(no rights violated now you can post your story in an internet forum)
3. Stand there and argue proclaim your 2nd amendment rights and get arested:banghead:

What I dont get is the amount of folks that say they would do this that or the other(read as step 3) on the forum but in real life will likely go with step 1 or 2

Are you really willing to go to jail/get arested or would you rather just go else where.

Further more I doubt most folks responding to this thread would even make a formal complaint against the officer.

Of this I can only say I am not afraid to make a complaint I did it just 2 weeks ago not fire arms related but an officer was just wrong, I did get results though.

And what do you loose if you just stand there for a couple of minutes and listen and say ok.......nothing, the officer leaves thinking he muscled another person you walk away knowing a cop is wrong and you still get to cary your gun.........sounds like a winner to me.

 

[lucky_fool]

3. Stand there and argue proclaim your 2nd amendment rights and get arested

Arrested for what? Show me the section of the Code of Virginia where it states that you can't tell a cop that he's wrong.

the officer leaves thinking he muscled another person... ...sounds like a winner to me

Really? Having the cops go around thinking they can "muscle" law-abiding citizens sounds like a winner to you?

 

[bnkrazy]

Eric,
Of the three choices you listed, 2 and 3 are "doing something." I was referring to those people that would comply with an unlawful "request" to disarm (or stop any other lawful activity) just because a cop asked nicely (or not).

You're in VA. You know how well the VCDL has been doing in getting these kinds of things squashed quickly and effectively. That's because they don't let ANYTHING slide. We're not talking drastic measures here. Most of the time, the PD is asked to retrain the officers and that's the end of it as they usually don't want their officers doing the wrong things.

The result is problems are less frequent or stop altogether. No lawsuits filed, etc. unless the PD doesn't want to play ball. You being near Norfolk should know this situation well.

The only thing wrong with letting the police officer say his/her piece and then not taking their advice, is it leaves them thinking that is an OK practice, and the next person they encounter might take their opinion as law.

I can say I'm prepared to spend the night in jail if I must to try and correct an officer overstepping his bounds. I do think the level of risk involved is dependent upon the location, and can see the issue that people in less free states have with being the guinea pig.

 

[Deanimator]

Whats the real alternative here in this case? 1 put your gun away (rights violated through intemidation)
2. listen to the officer and say ok then go about your business(no rights violated now you can post your story in an internet forum)
3. Stand there and argue proclaim your 2nd amendment rights and get arested

One MORE time:

4. "Am I free to leave?" If he says "no", he has to articulate WHY. If that "why" is to make me listen to him run his mouth about a law he either doesn't understand or disagrees with, that is simply UNLAWFUL. If it WERE lawful then there'd be nothing stopping him from holding me against my will and making me listen to him recite passages from Leviticus or from "Glengarry Glen Ross". He has ZERO power to impose himself upon me absent probable cause or reasonable articulable suspiction. When he DOES, that's a crime AND a civil tort. I'm not INTERESTED in his ill-informed opinions, just as I'm not INTERESTED in the ill-informed opinions of Holocaust deniers or 9/11 "truthers". And I have NO legal obligation to listen to either.

If he's too stupid or lazy to learn the law, or if he's too arrogant to obey it, I'm not going to argue with him OR listen to him past the point of proof that he's a buffoon. At that point he's going to have to use the threat of state sanctioned force to keep me there. When we cross that line, a formal complaint is purely incidental. We're going to court and he's going to come out on the losing end, because he's unlawfully deprived me of my liberty outside of the normal scope of his duties. And the city is going to be in a bind because it clearly both failed to properly train AND to supervise him. In fact, it could be found negligent in hiring him in the first place if it knew or should have known that he had a propensity for such behavior.

I can afford a night in jail. Can he afford to have his wages garnished or his property attached? I'm certainly willing to find out if he is. I wonder if his wife and kids feel the same way. Once we cross that threshhold, there's no going back.

 

[Eric F]

Lucky Fool
When I wrote step 3 in my post I was meaning getting baligerent about things there is nothing wrong with saying you have the right to do(fill in the blank) I am talking about fanatical responces of yelling and argueing.

Quote:
the officer leaves thinking he muscled another person... ...sounds like a winner to me

Really? Having the cops go around thinking they can "muscle" law-abiding citizens sounds like a winner to you?

Thats a half quote throwing off the whole meaning of my statement. the whole quote was

the officer leaves thinking he muscled another person you walk away knowing a cop is wrong and you still get to cary your gun.........sounds like a winner to me.

Some cops already go around harassing civilians your not gonna get away from that ever, its a power trip for some of them. Where you win is you still get to cary your gun because the law suports you and you are right.........see how diffrent that is when you put the whole quote out there?

The only thing wrong with letting the police officer say his/her piece and then not taking their advice, is it leaves them thinking that is an OK practice, and the next person they encounter might take their opinion as law.

this is why there is a process in every police department for citizens to make complaints

I can say I'm prepared to spend the night in jail if I must to try and correct an officer overstepping his bounds.

I know I couldnt do it, I am the only source of income for my family and I would loose my job over going to jail or getting arrested(if convicted of a major crime) Also I am not built got going to jail I like all of my teeth where they are.............

 

[Deanimator]

Some cops already go around harassing civilians your not gonna get away from that ever

Some cops already go around committing violent felonies, such as rape, robbery and murder and "your(sic) not gonna get away from that ever". Does that mean you should simply shrug and let it happen? That's what they do in Chicago. I LIKE the town I live in. I kind of like the cops. I don't want my town to become Chicago. I don't want the police department to become the Chicago PD. The best way to make sure that they DO is to shrug off bullying and criminal behavior by police. I'm not doing it.

 

[Eric F]

Does that mean you should simply shrug and let it happen?

no you file a complaint as I have said before.............If you dont then nothing gets done, A complaint will certianly work faster than you going to jail calling a lawyer sueing the city and or the officer. Its tomorrow/next week v/s next year.

If you come out ahead on the trial you will likely get more responce in the department. A complaint will get a faster responce.

 

[Deanimator]

no you file a complaint as I have said before.............If you dont then nothing gets done, A complaint will certianly work faster than you going to jail calling a lawyer sueing the city and or the officer. Its tomorrow/next week v/s next year.

If you come out ahead on the trial you will likely get more responce in the department. A complaint will get a faster responce.

I'm more interested in the right thing than the fast thing.

Of course that assumes that anything would be done administratively in the first place. I consider that a naive assumption, at least in certain places. In Chicago, the ONLY recourse you have against police misconduct of even the most horrific sort is civil suit, PERIOD.

 

[bnkrazy]

There's nothing wrong with filing a complaint. It's just a matter of how much BS you're willing to put up with before you can file it.

As noted before, some places have good results with complaints, others, not so much.

When in doubt, ask if you're free to leave. If they deny you that ability, they must be able to articulate a reason. If as stated before, it's because you're not following an unlawful "request," then they just stepped in it and should be reprimanded.

 

[Deanimator]

A complaint will get a faster responce.

How fast is NO response? A few years ago, a Florida TV station ran a series on the disfunctional nature of the citizen complaint process in a number of local departments. My favorite part is the sergeant THREATENING the person asking for a complaint form, ON CAMERA. Right after that, the reporter's personal information was posted on a police oriented website.

Yep, I guess that counts as a "fast" response...

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

Well most cops arn't gun guys, so what do you expect? It's not like they teach comprehensive firearms classes in college LEO curriculums. I've talked to people with law enforcement degrees that didn't know the differences between 9mm and .45acp.

It's like talking to someone with an "I turn the key, and it goes" knowledge base about cars.

 

[makarovnik]

Even though open carry is legal in many states you are going to arouse suspicion and sometimes cause a panic. If you open carry and police give you a bad time you can always ask if you are under arrest. If not you can always walk away even though this will piss off the LEO.

Bottom line is don't be surprised if you are hassled. If you aren't expecting to be hassled for OC then you need to rethink it.

 

[bnkrazy]

Well most cops arn't gun guys, so what do you expect?

I expect an officer to enforce the law. And, be open minded enough to realize he/she might not know everything. Not that much really.

 

[Deanimator]

Well most cops arn't gun guys, so what do you expect? It's not like they teach comprehensive firearms classes in college LEO curriculums. I've talked to people with law enforcement degrees that didn't know the differences between 9mm and .45acp.

It's like talking to someone with an "I turn the key, and it goes" knowledge base about cars.

That doesn't matter.

What matters is that if you're going to ENFORCE a particular law, you'd BETTER know the relevant provisions of that law. It's even MORE important to know that such a law EXISTS, and in THAT jurisdiction. If you don't, you make yourself look like a fool and open yourself to civil suit. Clearly some cops don't understand simple cause and effect relationships or the concept of actions having consequences.

 

[JesseL]

Even though open carry is legal in many states you are going to arouse suspicion and sometimes cause a panic. If you open carry and police give you a bad time you can always ask if you are under arrest. If not you can always walk away even though this will piss off the LEO.

Bottom line is don't be surprised if you are hassled. If you aren't expecting to be hassled for OC then you need to rethink it.

You really should provide some delimiters for statements like this. There are some places where open carry, despite being legal, is likely to get you unwanted attention from the police or perhaps cause a panic (anyone have a documented case of this happening?)

There are other places (like where I live) where the police know open carry is legal and most regular folks don't take much notice of it.

I don't expect to be hassled for open carry because in 9 years of doing it, I never have.

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

Well I never said that it didn't matter.

What I meant to say is that it doesn't strike me as suprising.

Cops do stupid **** all the time. My brother was pulled over one time in Wisconsin Dells with his buddies. The cop told him that unless he let them search the car for drugs and give give his buddies breathalyzer tests, he would write him a ticket for not having a front plate.

Ironically, they never tested my brother for BAC. He was 19 and he was the DRIVER. So I guess it's illegal to be an intoxicated passenger in Wisconsin, but ok to be an intoxicated driver.

 

[Intune]

3. Stand there and argue proclaim your 2nd amendment rights and get arested

I'll take #3 all day, every day and any night. I guess it comes from being a child of the '60's & '70's!

There are a bunch of answers to "you wanna go to jail?" The ones that come immediately to mind do not meet THR standards. Well, they really do but we conduct ourselves with the sensitivity of others in mind. As we should.

Don't threaten me. Badge or no badge. Polite evisceration is an art form

 

[Deanimator]

Polite evisceration is an art form

Ain't that the truth?

The best part is that you can make somebody like that look like the biggest jackass in the world, in front of his boss or in front of a jury, and he won't even realize it.

There was a cop in Tennesse, I think, who hassled a guy for open carrying, based on the law in an entirely different state where the cop had lived previously! The victim elected not to sue, but oh how I wish he had! I can only imagine the fun that my attorney could have had with that officer. I haven't got one iota of doubt that he could have reduced the officer to irrational rage in front of the jury!

 

[ProficientRifleman]

makarovnik said,

Bottom line is don't be surprised if you are hassled. If you aren't expecting to be hassled for OC then you need to rethink it.

This should not be the case. If you are doing something perfectly legal, and harming no one, you should not be "hassled" by anyone.

Arouse suspicion? For doing something perfectly legal and lawful? For doing something perfectly natural and normal, like carrying short-range defensive weaponry when you are out and about? Something in my soul tells me that this is exactly what free men do!