Front Sight Alaska--A Joke

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If any of you guys are interested, I recieved a DVD that explains thier whole operation. Shows training facilities, housing, mess, etc.

If this has already been offered sorry. BTW it came unsolicited in the NRA affiliate business package. I'll send it to anybody who wants.

Rick
 
2 cents...

Aside from all this jabbing; it really should be said that the instructors there and who have been there before are high quality people. And some of the people you meet there as other students are also great. And as a student the experience and what you learn there can be invaluable.
 
Nevada Dessert

Isn't there another weird place out there in the Nevada Dessert, like Area 51 or something??

Do you have to wear a tinfoil hat during the training classes? :neener:

Has anyone who has actually posted anything in this thread ever been to FS, because I was planning on taking some classes there in the near future, but now am worried about the whole thing??? :uhoh:

Someone who has actually been there please relate their experience. :scrutiny:

Thanks,
 
justin i hope this thread can remain open, at least until some simple answers are obtained. some of us sincerely want to know why our money isnt good enough for FSA. the religious aspect means little to us alaskans.
 
spiff-

I've got no problem leaving it open, in fact, I'd be curious to see an answer myself. That will, however, be dependent upon the general tone of the thread, which has gotten somewhat antagonistic.
 
444 wrote:

First of all, I love the use of the word compound. This is normally a word used by the liberal news media to describe anyone's home that owns a gun. I see now that gun owners are using the same term to describe other gun owners when they are attempting to say something dramatic.
i wouldn't call Front Sight a "country club".....but then again i've never been there.

"they have a gated community.........compound".
I haven't been there for over a year, but the last time I was there, this was not true. If your friend was there last year, I know he was mistaken. They are planning on having a gated community but that phase of construction wasn't even started the last time I was there.
you'd have to take that up with him. i've never been there, i lived in Green Valley and did not have the urge to drive there to even visit them. i once emailed Ignatius Piazza and he was apathetic to me even showing up at best. i took that as #1) i didn't have enough money or #2) they didn't want automatic weapons on their range or #3) they had a better offer or #4) i dont know.

"they encouraged him to move his family into the compound."
I am sure they did. As I recall, the lots were for the ...................... compound started somewhere in the range of 1/2 million dollars. Who knows, maybe a groundskeeper makes that kind of money ? They knew what they were paying him; right ? In any case, call Frontsight Nevada and tell them you are inquiring about a residential lot and see what they cost. Wait, make sure you tell them you want one in the compound.
they told him they would put him up in one of the trailers that was modified for living quarters for the lowly employees basically. i suppose you are going to say they didn't have those there either because you know everything there is to know about Front Sight and you didn't see them thus they didn't exist.

"they would not allow him to be armed until he took some of their courses"
So your buddy applied for a job as groundskeeper, and balked at the idea that he should be trained if he wanted to do armed security. Ok.
I have to agree that making him pay for the class is pretty lame. I know this is true because their instructors have to pay for classes also. I know they get continuing education, but if they want to just take a class for fun, they have to pay for it.
no, read what i wrote. he balked at the idea that they were doing this to basically have him work for nothing while supporting a child as a single parent. i suppose you like working for Las Vegas Fire Dept. so much you'd work for free if they gave you classes on how to put out a fire? you have bills to pay too.

What this so called compound actually is going to be is a town made up entirely of gun owners. Actually, not just gun owners, but gun owners who also dig taking classes as well as owning guns. This community is extremly high end and expensive. When you buy the lot you are actually buying their Platnum membership which entitles you to take any Frontsight course and any Frontsight course that will ever be offered as many times as you want. To give you an idea of what this membership costs, one of the details is that you can pass the membership upon your death in your will. The membership also includes a lot in the community. So, this "compound" will be inhabited by very well off professional people.
perhaps. i just don't see people forking 1/2 a million over for people who shoot so close to their houses that an accidental discharge or stray bullet could kill someone.
 
[takes deep breath, exhales slowly] I may kick myself for doing this, but here goes.

First the disclaimers:
I go to FS a lot. I will not defend all of FS's business practices because I believe they can be poor (though the training is outstanding). I have no other connection to FS: I do not work for them nor am I in any way compensated by them. I am certainly not any kind of spokesman for them, nor can I read the minds of the owners/operators and explain why they do what they do. Nor, again, will I defend their actions.

Cosmoline was treated very poorly, and I can attest that I -- a MEMBER -- have had the same poor treatment in the past. I have voiced my displeasure of this with the owner and will take further steps.

OK with that out of the way, let me present what I think is going on. Again, I am not defending FS, just trying to give some cool, rational thought based on my knowledge of how the membership thing works at FS:

To be a member of FS Alaska, you do indeed have to first be a member of FS Nevada (yes I realize Cosmoline was told he couldn't be a member, bear with me here). You can then "upgrade" to an Alaskan membership. And yes, I know people who have such memberships and have indeed been to FrontSight Alaska, and enjoyed it tremendously.

As to why Cosmo was told he couldn't be a member, here is my guess: FS used to offer its memberships to the public. It has since stopped doing so, but still offers memberships that existing members want to sell to anyone. It is somewhat similar to a country club that has a waiting list, but of course FS has no gender, race, or religious restrictions like country clubs have. Now, why on Earth the FS 800-number rep. didn't tell Cosmo this -- and didn't try to sell an existing membership -- I can't fathom and won't try, because it is certainly in FS's best interests to sell them.

So, as lame as it may sound, it appears to be a case of a really bad phone rep doing a disservice to his company. Feel free to call or email FS and voice your displeasure about this.

Now, as for the apparent "exclusivity" and being in Alaska where Cosmoline says the gun culture is more egalitarian: well again I am not going to defend their business decisions; they may indeed be alienating some good Alaskan customers. If you view the DVD that rcm offered, you will see that one of FS's missions is to have high profile people train there and get to know the regular American gunowner. Like I said, they may be shooting themselves in the foot with their business practices, but they really do want to do that.

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.

In summary: it is fair to criticize FS for its high prices. It is fair and worthwhile to read the history of Piazza's involvement with Scientology and the FS lawsuits with GlockTalk and any others. It may even be fair to question why I continue to go there.

But it is categorically unfair and unfounded to claim FS is some kind of religious or other extremist "cult" or "compound," or to speculate -- without having been there -- that the sites "don't exist."
 
Thanks for that post. I think I'm getting a better picture of the situation now. Frankly rather than go through any more trouble I'm just going to renew my $120 yearly membership at Birchwood, where I can get a range all to myself on the weekdays and nobody worries about my carhartts.

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.

You're right about that, and it's a good point. It's well known among locals that these "lodges" are little more than a clever means of fleecing outside hunters with more bucks than brains. I really don't think that's Frontsight's goal, and I wanted to see what their courses were like. I have no interest in paying tens of thousands to have some idiot try to teach me to hunt in my own back yard, so my exclusion from those places doesn't bug me much.

Here's a good example--I actually found an outfit a few years ago that was offering a month on a trap line in the middle of winter for the mere price of $11,000. For that you'd "get" to freeze your behind off and engage in the brutal work of checking a forty mile line over and over and over again. And they weren't offering to pay YOU $11,000. No, you were supposed to pay THEM :D I don't know if anyone was crazy enough to fall for it.
 
TFL had a GREAT thread on FS, Scientology and all sorts of wierdness
Yep... I just read that entire thread - like 9 pages worth. 444 was defending FS in it too.

[edit]The lawsuit against that Dana person has it seems been resolved (the LV court case web registry hasn't been updated to reflect that). Dana won.

I thought it was interesting that a couple of guys who had been trained at FS thought the training was absolutely great on the one hand but left feeling rather funny about the way it was presented on the other. They talked more about a cult of personality built around the pizza guy than scientology. One guy was even a first family member.

[dons tin foil hat] :D

Front Sight - building an army(?) made of indoctrinated members, living at FS for the coming revolution....

Muhahahaha

[removes tin foil hat] :D

EDITED: To update lawsuit status
 
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i appreciate your input clonakilty.

you will see that one of FS's missions is to have high profile people train there and get to know the regular American gunowner
now isnt that statement just a little bit contradictary? i can understand wanting to cater to the 'high profile' peeps. but how will they get to know the nitty-gritty-american-gunowner if the NGAG is not a member of FSN?

I have to believe too that there are "exclusive" hunting lodges in Alaska that only allow members or the very wealthy to come (i.e., not the average Alaskan wage earner), so the idea of having a club in Alaska that may exlcude regular Alaskans is not all that farfetched.
to second cosmo's comments on this, about the closest thing we have is lodges/guides that charge arms and legs because tourists will pay it. has nothing to do with excluding alaskans from it, in fact, a standing joke all around alaska whenever we encounter an 'indigenous' person selling baleen or ivory or bone or wood craftwork is 'come on now. i'm an alaskan. whats the REAL price?'

just about everything a guide/lodge provides for tourists (often uttered to sound a bit like 'terrorist') can be had experienced through friends/family of local residents. sure i could spend $5,000 to spend a week down in kodiak fishing for salmon/halibut, or i could just buy a plane ticket to kodiak and have my cousins pick me up in their skiff, and spend a week working halibut skate lines and harvesting out of their subsistence seines for at most $500. or i could pay the tens of thousands of dollars to go hunt grizzly with a guide, or hook up with some buddies and do it for the cost of the tags, and contribute to the cost of the gas/food.

so how does this relate to what FS offers? well sure i could pony up the thousands of dollars to join FSN, travel down there, take their prerequisite courses, and then come back up here and pay more thousands of dollars to attend their courses at FSA. or FSA could change their structure and start getting my money right away by opening up for membership as they hint they do on their website.

i'd feel better if FS was just simply honest and told us 'We're better than you, always have been, always will be, so go pound sand.' i can't get too offended over 100% honesty.
 
just about everything a guide/lodge provides for tourists (often uttered to sound a bit like 'terrorist') can be had experienced through friends/family of local residents. sure i could spend $5,000 to spend a week down in kodiak fishing for salmon/halibut, or i could just buy a plane ticket to kodiak and have my cousins pick me up in their skiff, and spend a week working halibut skate lines and harvesting out of their subsistence seines for at most $500. or i could pay the tens of thousands of dollars to go hunt grizzly with a guide, or hook up with some buddies and do it for the cost of the tags, and contribute to the cost of the gas/food.

I really wanted to hunt Alaska, but not if I am just going to get fleeced.

TFL had a GREAT thread on FS, Scientology and all sorts of wierdness.

It took me an hour to get through it, but it was worth it. Very interesting.
 
I really wanted to hunt Alaska, but not if I am just going to get fleeced.

You don't have to get fleeced. There are a few animals that must be hunted with a guide for out-of-state license holders--Brown bear, sheep and goat. Otherwise no guide is needed. There are some great flying services that will scout out a location and drop you off, then pick you up a week or so later. There are also some good deals on boat hunts where you do a combination of fishing and spotting from the boat, then get dropped off to get your bear or deer. Considering the amount of meat you can get between the game and the fish, these can be very cost effective. I remember one meat boat trip out of Seward a few years back where we all got several hundred pounds apiece in fish alone. Those waters are thick with fish.
 
What A Bunch of Horse Poop

Front Sights main facility is located near Las Vegas. I'm not a member (yet) but the classes I've attended there have been OUTSTANDING. Detailed and very specific high quality instruction was what I received both times, and I was most impressed.

Front Sight offers about 5 or 6 different layers of Memberships. The facility in Alaska, as far as I know, is restricted to members. So what? If you'd like to train at the Alaska facility, sign up for a Copper (or higher level) membership. Most members and non-members who take classes do so at the main facility near Las Vegas.

Every time I've dealt with them, they've been very professional and nobody has ever pulled any Scientology or alien horsedung on me. They are only interested in improving their facility, conducting high quality classes, and gaining new First Family members at the various levels. If they want - as a private membership organization - to restrict access to their Alaska facility to "members only" that's fine and is no different than some athletic clubs and golf country clubs.
 
Again, I was told that getting a membership (which in itself is extremely expensive) would only get me into Nevada FS. NOT FSA.

Yes, they are allowed to be elite and seal themselves off. But they're not doing themselves or the shooting sports any favors.
 
Cosmoline Already Has His Mind Made UP

Oh well, no sense trying to be logical. Some people just want to be contrary and point fingers and keep on arguing, no matter what you say and no matter how logical. I used to have an ex-wife like that once.

Cosmoline, if you want to TRAIN with Front Sight (at their main facility) you don't have to be a member. The courses are not cheap, but the quality of both the content and the close detailed precise professional instruction received is well worth the cost. I wish I could afford a lifetime membership but I can't so, just like any other non-member, I'll train in those classes I can afford.

My own hunting experiences don't require any "Steenking Memberships". There are plenty of great hunting experiences to be had both in Alaska and beyond it without being a member.

If they want to restrict access to their private property for whatever reason to just certain memberships, that's okay too. Don't worry about it. There are other more important things in life to focus on. Good Luck to you Sir, and Be Safe.
 
That's right--they list the courses with prices and it APPEARS as if I could just pay and attend, but I was told on the phone that only select members were allowed to go to FSA, and I COULD NOT become such a member. At most I could go to FSN.

I HAD made up my mind to attend a course, but they don't want me there so to hell with them.
 
Though Front Sight is a private establishment, people need not become members to receive weapons training there. But classes are not cheap. Firearms training costs $300 per day, and classes are either two or four days in length.

I remember reading this article last year. Either they were lying to the Clarion, or they were lying on the phone to me. I've just about had it with these people.
 
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