Front Sight Alaska--A Joke

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Ok, just for the record I realize I am wasting my time but it is too late for me to get into anything else before I go to bed.

I am a member of a local gun club here in Las Vegas named Desert Sportsman's. If I want to use their facility, I have to be a member. I had to be a member of the NRA to join and had to pay a fee to become a member. I don't really see anything wrong with this. This isn't a public range. It is a private range. I can shoot on that range and you can't. The reason isn't because of your religion. It isn't because you live in a state we don't like. It isn't because it is a "cool kids club". It is because I am a member and you are not. You want to become a member ? Go right ahead, there is nothing stopping you. But until you join, you won't get the combination to the lock on the gate.
Ok, Frontsight opens a facility in Alaska. They don't advertise it to the public unless you go to their webpage. They offer classes and other stuff there to their members. You can't go because you are not a member. Do you want to become a member ? Go right ahead, there is nothing stopping you. But until you join, you won't be able to go. They arn't excluding anyone willing to pay for their membership. It doesn't matter if you live in Alaska. It doesn't matter what religion you are. It doesn't matter what your sexual preference is. All you have to do is pay.
I am not sure what is so weird about this :confused:


I think I covered my answer to your question in an earlier post:
"Just as a guess, I think that they want to keep the classes small (limited number of instructors available) and the season there is short. So, they probably already have enough people to fill all the classes they offer. They don't have the facility or the instructors to offer more classes.
Again, I think that is the reason, but I can't swear to it.
Frontsight Nevada is a long term project with very lofty goals. In the several years they have been here they have only touched the tip of the iceberg of what they want to eventually do. I am sure that Frontsight Alaska will be the same way only it just got started.
If you buy into the sales pitch, they are paying for all this out of pocket. They are not financing any of it. So, this stuff is going to take time and a lot of money."
For all I know, Frontsight had the opportunity to buy property up there. They figured that the price was only going to go up, so they wanted to buy now. They financed the deal by charging their current members a fee that premitted them to go to Frontsight Alaska. Maybe they have big plans for it in the future but right now, they are doing all they are capable of doing and aren't seeking new business because they can't provide the service.
I don't know, this is all a guess.
I also don't know why this would result in them being flammed on the internet though.
Let's say I am right. Let me put you in their shoes. You teach CCW classes. You advertise heavily. You start getting hundreds of people every week that want to take the class. You don't have the time, the instructors, or the facility to teach that many people. Eventually you will have to turn people away. Some of them might get pissed. Some of them might post on the internet that you are a jerk. Is this true ? No, but it will be posted anyway and a lot of people will believe it.
 
444--I was told I COULD NOT get a membership that would allow me to attend FSA. I have memberships at other ranges, so the concept isn't new to me. What is new to me is being told to take a hike by a company pretending to offer gun classes here. It doesn't sit well with me, and it will not be forgotten.
 
First of all, Frontsight itself is not some kind of secret organization. As far as I konw, anyone with money and the ability to pass the background check can join. By the way, you have to pass a background check and pay for a background check every year if you are taking classes every year.
Ok, again, I am just speculating on all of this.
But, again, let's say my guess is right.
They (Frontsight Alaska) have a limited number of intructors, they have a limited number of classes, they have a limited amount of time, they have a limited facility. The facility only opened recently. So they estimate how many students they can handle. They sell that many memeberships. And that is all.
Maybe it isn't a grand conspiracy. Maybe I can't buy one either (I haven't tried: I was offered one several years ago when this was first proposed but not since then). Maybe it has nothing to do with your state of residence, your religion, your sexual preference, or anything other than they just have as many people as they can handle.
Again, I don't know. BUT, I don't think they are picking on you, or Alaska residents and I don't think this is all some kind of conspiracy.

To go back to my earlier post: I have been a member of Desert Sportsmans for over 10 years. At one point they decided that they had enough members and stopped making new members. They established a waiting list. When someone didn't renew or seomeone died, they had an opening. There was no need to flame them on-line. The explanation was simple. It wasn't that they didn't want you. It was just that they were trying to ensure that the members they had, that had been members for years, that had paid and all that could enjoy the facility.

Really. Let's come down to earth here for a moment. If I was trying to go to the Steeler game and it was sold out, I would just accept that. They only have so many seats and they sold tickets for all of them. They are not selling me a ticket just because they don't have any more. It isn't because they hate me. It isn't because they don't like the cut of my gib. They just don't have any more seats.
Could it be that simple ? Or does it have to be a personal attrack on you ?
 
if you tried to go to the steelers game and they said "No" and gave you no reason why you couldnt..and you noticed all the people at the park that day were lets say...Jewish. Would you suspect something might be up 444?
 
Maybe they don't want Alaskans to see that they interpret our hunting and fishing laws the way many outsiders do. Any way they darn well want to. Money talks right?
 
Well, I am not sure that I could recognize that they were all Jewish by sight. But if I noticed that they all had a ticket and I didn't, it wouldn't surprise me that I couldn't get in and they could. But I guess that doesn't satisfy the tin foil hat club.

I am also not sure what this has to do with the current discussion. But since you brought up something about religious discrimination twice, please explain to the rest of us what you are talking about.

I am also really curious how you seem to know who can go and who can't. We know ONE guy that can't. Although we don't really know the reason.

I know.

Let's wildly speculate then pick the most dramatic and damaging senario and say it's true. :scrutiny:
And if it damages their credibility in the proecess, that is their problem.
 
Ok, it also sounds way more dramatic than simply explaining it by saying people who don't have a membership can't go. But, the truth isn't exciting or worth posting about on-line. And, if we just stuck to reality a lot of lawyers would be out of a job.
 
Ok, it also sounds way more dramatic than simply explaining it by saying people who don't have a membership can't go and aren't allowed to join. But, the truth isn't exciting or worth posting about on-line. And, if we just stuck to reality a lot of lawyers would be out of a job.
Click to expand...
I fixed it for you. No need to thank me. :D

444, what's so complicated here? You keep telling him all he has to do is pay up and join Frontsight.

Frontsight's official representative, the guy they PAY to answer the phone, told him to take a hike! He asked how to join, and they told him not to bother.

So you say, "just join, what are you so worked up for?"

But Frontsight says "We aren't interested in having you join. Forget it."

And your response is what? "Just join, what are you so worked up for?"

:scrutiny:
The whole thing is surely a puzzle, but if there were no senseless drama, you couldn't really call the people involved professional shooting instructors.
"University politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so insignificant."
--Henry Kissinger



(Hey, look, I made a Pax!)
 
What makes it more complicated is the implication that this is all based on some conspiracy theory. What makes it complicated is that without any knowlege what so ever about the reason for any of this, a whole lot of people are more than willing to drag it through the mud.

As I have mentioned before, this is only the high road when we are dealing with certain subjects or certain persons. But, other people and other subjects are open game. This is one of those subjects.

As has been said many times before, if we all agreed, what would we talk about ?
How about this, you guys are right. It is discrimination. It is all a deep dark conspiracy.
Happy now ?

The truth is out there. Very little of it is on this board however.
 
444 isnt happy because we dont agree that anyone should have the ability to discriminate against anyone for any reason.

What do I think as a matter of opinion? I'm thinking that frontsite has ties to Scientology, which in and of itself isnt a bad thing. However, from the information at hand it looks like the possibility that Frontsite is showing a strong preference for individuals of a specific religion. Do I have proof, naw this is merely an opinion.
 
So the fact that I have a membership there and the fact that I had the opportunity to buy into Frontsight Alaska means I am a scientologist ?
Better yet, I must have missed the part where they asked these two guys what religion they practiced before they told them they couldn't go. It seems like they would have mentioned that if it happened. But you seem to know and I don't.

Don, while you are fixing posts, please correct the spelling of Frontsight. It is that thing on the end of your barrel. A couple of the experts on the subject seem to have missed that.
 
444: forget about the people suggesting connections to Scientology, Dianetics, Hollow Earth, little green men, and Karl Rove. Stick to just the facts:

-FS opened a training facility in Alaska, and advertised it on their website
-a THR member in Alaska called, and asked about attending classes, only to be told "you have to be a FS member
-said THRer said "ok... how do I join FS?"
-FS's paid mouthpiece (operator) answered "you don't: no Alaska residents"

Now, if I missed something in the first post, someone correct me. But that DOES seem fishy, not to mention bad business...
 
444, heres my take on this, and please, correct me if i'm mistaken.

the whole thing smacks of elitism. i'm not good enough to spend my hard earned money with them because i havent been to FSN.
the alaskan attitude towards the shooting sports and 'real world training' is very simple. our ranges dont charge arms/legs to be members. the trainers that live up here offer affordable courses.
up here it is expected that shooters know what they are doing, because by and large, they do.

in looking at FSA's webpage i don't honestly get the feeling that i would learn a lot from them. for the amount of money they are talking about or has been hinted at, what figure did you mention? $2,000? and thats not counting a persons airfare, lodging, etc? for $2,000 i'll go to Jim West's lodge, fish as much as my arms can handle and get some good instruction from a renowned hunter and gunsmith.

the FSA webpage gives the idea that anyone can call them up and get on the list for their courses.
the attitude of the persons that have been spoken to by myself as well as other THR members indicates that they don't want to be bothered with helping other shooters out. were supposed to be on the same team here. i would think that if they had slots open for their courses they would be more than happy to accept the money of non-members. and in looking at their schedule they have stuff going on for the next two months. dont tell me they have all the slots filled on every one of those courses because that aint the case.

i could not care less about whether or not FS is some kind of cult. sure, its eye-brow-rising to hear about what some people say about them, but what difference does it make? i worked briefly for some door-to-door sales company that was supposedly a cult. yeah they had weird 'rules' and guidelines but whats the big deal?

as far as the use of the word 'compound' is concerned, i'd think very few people actually equate it with the mental picture of Waco's compound being torched.


btw, do you have any idea just how lucrative it would be for FS to open up a full facility here thats open to the public? if they built a lodge/restaurant on their property and just opened for the summer they'd be turning a profit by year two, not year five like most other businesses.
if they can afford to keep $500k basic properties down in FSN they can surely afford to expand operations here and be able to afford $1,000,000 basic land plots down south.
 
I realize that I am on thin ice here.
I also realize that dispite anything else on this thread I will be accused of making a personal attack.
But...................


That sounds fishy to me also and has from the beginning. The reason it sounds fishy to me is because I don't believe it. I think he misunderstood the person on the phone. I am sure there are members of Frontsight that are residents of Alaska right now. I am equally sure that if a resident of Alaska tried to join Frontsight itself they would be welcomed with open arms. It wouldn't surprise me if they said he couldn't train in Alaska. But I would bet my next paycheck that if he called and just wanted to join Frontsight he could.
I wasn't on the phone and I didn't hear what was said.
Maybe I am completely wrong and this school that is known internationally and has hosted students from all over the world told him that. It might be that out of the thousands of memberships in Frontsight that they specifically discriminate against Alaskans. Anything is possible. Dispite the fact that several hundred people every weekend attend classes there, they might have it in for this guy, I don't know. Maybe they have some kind of scanner that tells them what religion people practice when you call them on the phone ? Hey, I am probably all wet. After all, none of this sounds the least bit crazy to you guys, so I am probably wrong.
I apoligize for discussing it.
I will only agree with people from now on.
Down with the oppressors. Power to the people.
 
I invited everyone here to call the number and ask if they can register for one of the listed classes at FSA. Spiff kindly did, and it appears he got the same rude response I got.

I never said I could not join Frontsight Nevada. I suppose I could, but what's the point? I will never in my life set foot in a place that hot, certainly not if I can help it. I was told that I COULD NOT join Frontsight Alaska or attend courses there, in spite of what the website implies. I was told that FSA was limited to special members, presumably from Nevada (or whatever).

Please, I invite other people to call up and ask to register for a FSA course. See what they say.
 
the whole thing smacks of elitism. i'm not good enough to spend my hard earned money with them because i havent been to FSN.
Click to expand...

That's my feeling as well. I suspect this is something of a culture clash between the Alaskan gun culture and the far more elitist, upper-class gun culture of southern [expletive deleted]. Spiff is right--gun ownership here is much more egalitarian, both because of our liberal gun laws and long standing traditions. To the Frontsight people it may seem natural to come up here and hunker down, refusing to admit anyone they don't already know. Secrecy and elitism go hand in glove, since I suspect a fair number of their clients don't want their association with firearms widely known. With celebs coming up to Alaska for a high-priced hunting, fishing and shooting trip, FSA can't risk admitting Spiff or me. We might say hello or want to shake hands. Worse yet, we might disagree with the Outside instructor on local matters. We might even come wearing carhartts overalls and muddy boots.

The fact that 444 mentioned (several times) the outrageous value of the houses at FS Nevada and the high cost of membership as if it were a GOOD thing tells me he's operating out of a totally different playbook than shooters in this state.
 
The fact that 444 mentioned (several times) the outrageous value of the houses at FS Nevada and the high cost of membership as if it were a GOOD thing tells me he's operating out of a totally different playbook than shooters in this state.
Click to expand...


Likewise..
 
OK, heres an easy question.

We have about 20,000 members here, most of them pretty heavily involved in the shooting sports and firearms training. We also post at other forums and know plenty of other shooters.

Has anyone here EVER set foot in this Alaska facility? Does anyone here even know a nother person who has set foot in the Alaska facility?

If noone can answere a "yes" to those questions, that is QUITE an odd circumstance, no?
 
Just more high wierdness out of the Nevada desert....

Hokey background checks, threats of lawsuits, harassing boards....

Something stinks at FS...
 
I have never been to any FS facilities, but I do have a question of 444 or any other members.

What has actually been built out there? I hear all these stories about $500,000 lots -- has anyone actually built a house out there? I looked through the web site and the brochure, and nowhere do I find any pictures of the facilities, other than the ranges and what looks like a pre-fab or two. Maybe I just missed them?

If this operation has been going on for years, what tangible results in the way of a gated, upscale, community are there?

Honest questions -- I have no axe to grind here.
 
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