Full autos in the US + Home Made Sten

[Fosbery]

I was wondering about how full autos work in the US. I don't mean the guns themselves, I mean legally.

As I underdstand it, one can build anything one can legally own as long as it is intended for personal use i.e. not for sale.

I believe there is a $200 tax imposed when transfering i.e. buying a full auto.

So, how do you make it so that you can legally make your own full autos or can you just do it right off?

Looking at prices of SMGs in the US and I'm thinking it would be way cheaper to just make myself a Sten

 

[cracked butt]

As I underdstand it, one can build anything one can legally own as long as it is intended for personal use i.e. not for sale.

You can build anythign legally so long as its not classified as a short barrelled rifle, short barrelled shotgun, fully automatic, or a destructive devide.
You could legally build a semi-auto sten from parts so long as you make your own semiauto receiver and internals yoruself.

So, how do you make it so that you can legally make your own full autos or can you just do it right off?

You don't. I think there is a Special Occupation Tax that allows you to manufacture full autos, but its beyond what the normal person would want to go through to get. I might be a bit off on this, and there are certain to be others here that know a whole lot more.

 

[CDignition]

The reason they are alot of $$$ is due to the amount that are available..the registry was closed in 1986..so anything after then is not allowed for private ownership.

You cant make a sten yourself...not legally anyhow...you can get a manufacturers license, but then you actually have to make and sell them to LE...it is Illegal to get the Manufacturing Lic. to make them for your own use...


it also depends on what state you live in... some allow them, some dont.

do a search., theres much info here(albeit some inaccurate)...

 

[SoCalShooter]

Class 3 allows you to own machine guns I believe...is that correct? Lots of $$$ though.

 

[Kaylee]

I believe you can also get a manufacturing license and build or purchase newer select-fire arms, as a means to developing new arms.. again, with the end intention of police or military sale, just not as direct as building up M4A1s in the shop to sell to the local po-po. Said license has enough taxes though that if you're not in the business, it's cheaper in the long run to just pay the 15K plus for a pre-86. (And when you stop renewing your license, you have to turn in any MGs)

I ain't an expert, just worked (briefly) for a guy who had one of them SOT shops.

-K

 

[Jim K]

There is no license required to buy or own a machinegun under Federal law. If one is in a state that allows machinegun possession, an MG that is already registered can be purchased by anyone who can pay for it, pay the transfer tax, obtain local police approval, and pass the regular federal check.

A person can get approval to manufacture a machinegun by paying a $200 tax, and having proof that the gun is being made for a LE or military agency. The gun cannot be sold to an individual.

A so-called "Class 3" license is a license to deal in National Firearms Act weapons, including machineguns. It is not a license to manufacture weapons, and is not needed to own or buy NFA weapons.

Jim

 

[Fosbery]

Right, so basically: I can't make myself an MG

If there's no permit for owning an MG, how do the police checks work?

 

[Cromlech]

I want a Sten too.

I guess that you would have to make do with a semi then mate.

 

[El Tejon]

Right then, the police check ("what's all this then?") is done when you submit the tax stamp, the Form 4, to the feds and during the CLEO sign off.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Not to disagree with anyone, but there is at least one fringe group out there who has made full-auto stuff for themselves and haven't been hit (yet) by the fedgov as criminals. Too lazy to look them up but, if you Google them or something, they are a self-proclaimed militia group in one of the states targeted by Nascar and the Blue Collar Comedy Tour who have made some full-auto stuff and say that, according to the wording of the law, they are fine as long as they don't transport it out of the state or sell it. Sounded pretty questionable when I read it but no one had raided them at that time and they had actively pursued the ATFE in regard to it.

 

[Manedwolf]

I expect this is going to become more of an issue as secondhand CNC machinery gets more widespread on the market. We're moving into new generations of the stuff, and each generation is better. Eventually, it will be to the point that what's on the used market will be a CNC rig that one can stick a block of metal is, download a CAD plan package, hit "start", come back and assemble the finished, polished and perfectly fitted pieces of a full-auto tubegun.

Will be interesting times, when any warehouse, any semi trailer, any rustbucket freighter or decent-sized boat can be an "SMG for Dummies" armament factory for criminals. They'll definitely see that restrictions on legal manufacturers and sellers will no longer matter to the drug cartels!

(CNC stands for Computer Numerical Control, and refers specifically to a computer "controller" that reads G-code instructions and drives the machine tool, a powered mechanical device typically used to fabricate metal components by the selective removal of metal.)

 

[MechAg94]

....targeted by Nascar and the Blue Collar Comedy Tour....

Home Depot?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

homemade Sten

It is possible to make, for your own use and not for resale,
a semi-auto Sten, as long as it meets specifications for a
legal rifle: over 26" long, barrel over 16" long, and a closed
bolt mechanism with a seperate firing pin controled by the
trigger-disconnector-sear. ATF has to see and approve the
plans, and of course, the receiver must be altered in design
so that a full-auto bolt and firing mechanism will not fit
(usually involves reducing diameter of breechbolt by lathing
and using a narrower receiver tube than the full-auto Sten.)
They have been made, but they are not common.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Fosberry Asked:

If there's no permit for owning an MG, how do the police checks work?

Little bit of history behind this.

The 1934 NFA was passed before the 1943 Wickard v. Filburn decision that vastly expanded the scope of the "commerce clause".

Prior to this decision, in order to regulate anything, they had to show some sort of jurisdiction, and the only way to show jurisdiction was to tax the item.

Hence, the '34 NFA was implemented as a Tax Scheme, rather than as a licensure/permit scheme. The $200 tax effectively doubled the price of tommy guns at the time. One of the conditions of paying the tax was to show eligibility, and that's where the fingerprint & FBI check came into play.

After Wickard v. Filburn, of course, it's a different story. Basically, congress attaches a magic spell/phrase to a law, asserting that the item to be regulated somehow "affects interstate commerce" and viola! Jurisdiction!

 

[AK103K]

I want a Sten too.

What? No Sterling?

Personally, I'd rather have an MP 40.


The police check is done at the time of the application. The tax stamp is the result of you passing your test.

The part I dont get is this. The NFA '34 was legal because they "taxed" the gun, which is legal. They could not ban them outright, thats against the Constitution.(not that it matters these days) '68 and '86 and all the background checks are a whole different story. If you own one, or want to make one, or import one, pay the tax and away you go. But nooooooo......

Another thing... how does the ATF get to make rules that we have to follow? As citizens, (not that that matters a whole lot these days either) they are our employees, not our masters. They certainly are not elected officials, passing (legal) laws. For the dealers its a different story, its part of their licensing requirements.

 

[hoji]

Sorry ,but if you want a full auto you will have to purchase one made before 1986{unless you are a LEO}
Be sure to thank the NRA and Ronald Reagan{in your prayers}

 

[Glockfan.45]

Manedwolf is right I think. Just wait another 10 years till used CNC equipment shows up in the market. I think you will start seeing alot more homebuilt mg's turn up. I can imagine a permit eventually being required to own a plotter, or copy of autocad.

 

[Cromlech]

Sten, Sterling, MP40, Grease Gun, PPSH, they are all good to me.

 

[cracked butt]

I expect this is going to become more of an issue as secondhand CNC machinery gets more widespread on the market. We're moving into new generations of the stuff, and each generation is better. Eventually, it will be to the point that what's on the used market will be a CNC rig that one can stick a block of metal is, download a CAD plan package, hit "start", come back and assemble the finished, polished and perfectly fitted pieces of a full-auto tubegun.

Will be interesting times, when any warehouse, any semi trailer, any rustbucket freighter or decent-sized boat can be an "SMG for Dummies" armament factory for criminals

From my understanding, a Sten receiver is very simple- its mainly a piece of steel tubing with a few cuts and welds in it- no need for fancy machinery to make. Think of an AK receiver with 1/10th the complexity.

 

[AK103K]

Be sure to thank the NRA and Ronald Reagan{in your prayers}

I glad see I'm not the only one to notice. This comment usually stirs things up a bit though.

 

[AK103K]

From my understanding, a Sten receiver is very simple- its mainly a piece of steel tubing with a few cuts and welds in it- no need for fancy machinery to make.

You used to be able to buy the tubes, with the diagram already stuck on it at the gun shows for a number of the "tube" guns.(you still see them from time to time) Its always amazed me how all those "parts kits" you see advertised in the different gun mags all sell like hot cakes, especially since there are only so many "legal" guns in the registry. Must be for all those "dummy" guns you never see around.

 

[geekWithA.45]

how does the ATF get to make rules that we have to follow?

Aaaah! The miracle of the regulatory process!

Basically, when congress, state or federal makes a law, they implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) delegate the details to a bureau that makes the rules that implement the law.

The IRS, for example, is one such agency. The _law_ regarding taxes isn't a wall full of volumes. It's maybe a thin folder. The _rules_ implementing that thin folder literally ARE a wall full of volumes. (My tax attorney gets a full set every year, a significant and necessary professional expense)

Be sure to thank the NRA and Ronald Reagan{in your prayers}

Sigh.

That's a cheap shot.

'68 GCA was truly heinous until mitigated by the 86 FOPA, which did a great deal of good for us. The NFA registry was closed in a literal "midnight maneuver" as a last ditch effort by our enemies to derail what was otherwise a solidly positive bill.

Sometimes, you have to take what you can get. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[hoji]

The NRA were in favor of the 1968 GCA as well.
It is not a cheap shot if it is the truth.

 

[Adam Selene]

IIRC a Form 1 is needed to manufacture an NFA device.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Since the Hughes Amendment snuck into the FOPA 1986
(Firearms Owners Protection Act), Form 1 cannot be used to
make a new machinegun: only new SBS, SBR, AOW, and
suppressors.
---------------------------------
edited to add: none for non-military non-police:
MGs cannot be made for the NFA registry for private ownership
since 19 May 86.