Gang Training Update

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Treo

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I'm sitting in a gang training inservice & I'm learning some things that seem to be overlooked here.

The biggest thing I'm hearing is this idea that WE have that BGs have little or no firearms training. I'm hearing that a lot of these guys go into the military get the SAME training we got then do a tour ( or 2 ) in Iraq, ( we were also told that there is evidence of gang activity in Iraq) & comeback W/ that skill set & train it to the gang.

ETA we are also being told they are using that training to ambush cops
We need to drop this mentality that the bad guy hasn't got the gun skills we do, it is becoming more likely that they will be BETTER trained than us, we need to begin to train accordingly.
 
We need to drop this mentality that the bad guy hasn't got the gun skills we do, it is becoming more likely that they will be BETTER trained than us, we need to begin to train accordingly.

The new FBI report on deadly force encounters experienced by law enforcement officers highlights this fact. They even train force on force with paintball guns. This is common knowledge in the LE community and is taken into account in our training. They even have a new category, "Urban Combat Veteran", for BG's who have been in five or more firefights in the street. Expecting to pull a gun on a BG and have him flee or faint in fright is probably a thing of the past. A lot of them have BTDT and they aren't afraid. I've been telling my CCW students this for a couple of years now.
 
Have you read the latest FBI reports on just this topic?They indicate that BGs shoot better than good guys. Bit misleading, that, since BGs have the element of surprise and can open fire whenever it suites them, but you get the idea. Mas Ayoob covered this pretty well in either "Combat Handguns" or "American Handgunner" can't remember which one for sue. Anyone have a link?
 
Has been the case since the late 90's early 2000's when they had to adjust to new law enforcement tactics.

Criminals adapt. In the 90's they wore specific colors, and intentionaly stood out. There was no way to confuse most gang members with others. Some have been slower to change, but for the most part that is a thing of the past.
Law enforcement got all sorts of green lights to treat such people very differently under the law, and fast track thier due process, even having policies many places that seem downright third world in dealing with gangs.

It is always smart to pay attention to how undesireables of a time period are treated under the law, for it is usualy in such realms that the protections of us all are on the front lines and can be removed one piece at a time.

Labeling someone a gang member/ street terrorist, or organized crime member allows for very different treatment under the law many places. So LEO often do all they can to apply such labels to as many as possible, even people that just know someone who is a gang member or have a friend who is one are often labeled as one themselves. Property can be siezed, people can be denied various rights and numerous enhancements can be applied.


Many "gang members" or those from high gang areas that will return to them afterwards join the military, get good training with weapons, and come to appreciate the uses for various weapons, various tactics, and things like body armor for different high risk tasks. They then return to regions with skills highly suited to a life of crime if that is the path they choose. For each one that then leaves the military and chooses such a path they teach many others these same lessons back home.
This is especialy dangerous in a "police action" type of scenario where our military is ruling over a region, practicing and using many tactics invaluable to gangs at home. A lot of experience in home invasions can be achieved by raiding homes of people in Iraq, and learning to control people that do not want to be controlled. Learning to use fear tactics to keep people in line, and learning to make examples of any that lash out.


The new FBI report on deadly force encounters experienced by law enforcement officers highlights this fact. They even train force on force with paintball guns.
Or airsoft also quite popular and available now.

Yes many have training, and they also blend in better with other citizens, not wishing to be highly obvious and unique like in the 90's. Your average college student and gang member often dress the same way now.

Our legislators have helped as well. Firearms such as the Tech-9 variants, a very difficult to use and generaly inaccurate firearm had gained a reputation among criminals from back when they were readily converted to fully automatic fire by someone with no mechanical skill.
Yet the newer versions were not readily converted, yet still sought after due to reputation, and probably the menacing appearance. This left many viewing some serious pieces of junk as ideal weapon platforms. A win as a good guy.
No longer. Now after being forced to make do with superior platforms, having "junk guns" removed many places etc Organized criminals have been forced to use good weapon platforms, and have greatly improved skills.
 
Just talked about this at TR last week. Smith made several salient points:

1. BGs pick time and place for fight. Most attack police because they had the opportunity (cop distracted, etc.).

2. According to FBI study, BGs who attack police, practice far more than the police officers they attack. (Somewhere your enemy is training harder).

3. When young BGs start coming back from Middle East and start training others in their gangs (MS-13, BGD, Latin Kings, Crips and Bloods, inter alia) to fight as fire teams with smuggled weapons (just think about bank robberies with overwatch from a PKM or .308 bolt gun), things will really get "interesting" for the police.
 
treo,

I have seen video pruporting to show gang members in the 82nd Airborne. If this is true, then these guys will outclass 99.9% of the cops - for they are well trained and battle hardened.

If true, then we need to put a stop to it - immediatly.

NASCAR
 
I have seen video pruporting to show gang members in the 82nd Airborne. If this is true, then these guys will outclass 99.9% of the cops - for they are well trained and battle hardened.

If true, then we need to put a stop to it - immediatly.

Put a stop to what? Low income people with fewer opportunities joining the military? People that live in low income areas often associate with or belong to gangs because that is who they live with. You cannot live in such an area without "associating" with gangs. They will be neighbors, co-workers, and those who will look out for you when the police are unable or won't.

This at a time when our military is having serious problems meeting its recruitment needs because few people are keen to ship off to Iraq and deal with IEDs and other things that no matter how good of a soldier you are leave you vulnerable? Leaving them happy to take all who are willing to sign up and qualify, and even more happy with those who can be placed on the front lines (where they recieve the most combat experience.)
For every person that dies in Iraq, several come back missing limbs and body parts.

It is not the middle and upper class with tons of opportunities at home that are steadily entering the service in large numbers and recieving this combat experience. It is people with fewer opportunities, the same people ironicly that have gang associations.
 
Zoogster,

Are you saying that it is alright for the Army to hire and train gangbangers?

NASCAR
 
I saw that exact thing. It goes:
Gang members join up with the military (usually ones w/o records to bypass the army's selection process).
Theoretically, due to the Armed Services needing personnell, they sign on people even with gang history. These same gang members train, even fight for the US, then return home, to "teach" thier gang members concepts like smallunit tactics, ambush strategies, etc...

Im not sure if it's 100% accurate, someone help me out. However, there statistics showing gang affiliation amoung service members.
 
learn2shoot:
http://www.gangsacrossamerica.com/gangs_and_terrorists.php

gangsacrossamerica is chock full of good info to get you started.


And, try to not focus on the American Army types. There are other Armies throughout the world that offer solid training and operate in nasty conditions where there are not blue hats to try and keep the peace.
A great many are former soldiers of Central American nations and some even manage to wander out of the Legion to start a life of crime.
Interpol has had their finger on the pulse of all this globally for a while. It's just now coming to light for the average Joe on the street.

They have been doing SWAT style raids on each other for quite a while, gathering drugs and money. It's only a matter of time until we see a coordinated assault as ElTejon mentioned.
At which point, another Northfield Minnesota would have to happen to keep it all in check.
 
This is especialy dangerous in a "police action" type of scenario where our military is ruling over a region, practicing and using many tactics invaluable to gangs at home. A lot of experience in home invasions can be achieved by raiding homes of people in Iraq, and learning to control people that do not want to be controlled. Learning to use fear tactics to keep people in line, and learning to make examples of any that lash out.

food for thought.
 
At which point, another Northfield Minnesota would have to happen to keep it all in check.

The sad part is that another Northfield is not possible in some states that have been most active in denying their citizens' rights to keep and bear arms for their personal and community defense. :fire:
 
Vermonter wrote
Best way to fight gangs is to take away their income.

Precisely. When the violence monopolists who still run your lives eliminated the blindingly stupid prohibition against alcohol, the gangs that dealt in it had to move on to other things, and fewer peripherals were endangered by their activities.

It is now time to do the same with drugs: legalize them, and you'll see the gang members will have to either compete with the organized mob, or else get real jobs. Good luck having the street thugs compete with the more refined thugs.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Best way to fight gangs is to take away their income.
Unfortunately that requires decriminalization of drugs to make it not only unprofitable to sell in America, but equal to or less profitable to grow in foriegn locations than other crops.

However that would also result in a reduction of personel in Law Enforcement across the nation. Many people would lose thier jobs, property siezures and great sources of income for government would disappear, and funding for many things would dry up. A lot of criminal actions including many violent and property crimes commited to fund habits or supply drugs would be reduced and most drug users would be little different than alcoholics.
The business of locking up criminals and the people who make thier living in that field would find themselves with far less work. Most of law enforcement's efforts are in enforcing drug prohibition or responding to crimes that stem from funding habits or dealing in drugs.


A large portion of our government depends on drugs remaining illegal.
A large number of authoritarian practices under law depend on drugs. It is far more difficult to create search warrants that allow you to search every nook and cranny of a place when you can't put drugs on the warrant. For example. It is far more difficult to justify no knock warrants when you can't use the excuse that you don't want the individuals to stash or destroy drugs.


If illegal drugs became legal there would not be enough money in it to warrant as much production. If you can grow a coffee crop worth more, requiring less processing and effort, why would you grow a coca crop with a much smaller yield? The same goes for things like heroine, which require large crops for relatively small amounts of alkaloids.

Additionaly many intelligence agencies around the world rely on illegal drug crops to fund guerrilla warfare. The CIA for example could not have fought most of the communists in South America, or defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan, or created cells that fight communism in parts of Asia if cocaine and heroine were not highly illegal. Many parts of the drug trade and the roots of many cartels stem from creating self funded armies to fight communism around the world. Most warlords used to fight US adversaries were funded by the drug trade.
Illegal drugs allow you to create guerrilla forces in remote regions that can pay for millions of dollars in weapons and equipment on thier own by doing nothing more complex or technical than growing and refining a plant. Something even a monkey in the forest could be taught to do.
How could you possibly fund such things in a clandestine way if something simple that could be done anywhere did not command a high price? If it was legal it couldn't fund much.
 
Zoogster,

Stop making sense. Obviously, you need to go back for re-indoctrination of the facts that drugs are the only material things (besides firearms) that are intrinsically evil. Have you forgotten that those inanimate chemicals have little fangs, and if you legalized them, it would be the equivalent of feeding Gizmo after midnight? Do you hate mom, apple pie, freedom, justice and America?

-Sans Authoritas
 
The US Constitution mentions only four crimes - treason, counterfeiting, postal crimes, and crimes on the high seas - yet the US Code has over 900 crimes.

So much for the 10th Amendment.


End of hijack. Back to the gang bangers.
 
Something More To Think About

Another point that was brought up in the training was that " In the gang world , no challenge goes unanswered" . This point was illistrated W/ an icident that happened locally. Its been the subject of a few threads. What happened is a home invasion was met W/ force here in Co Springs & failed. I THINK one invader died & the other was wounded. The wounded one got out of the hospital & went STRAIGHT back to the home & did a drive by, for which he is now in jail. The home owner has VANISHED. & it isn't publically known if he has run, been place in protective custody or killed by gangmembers.

I'm sorry if this sounds like fear,b ut to me this re-enforces my first rule of self defense. DRAW NO UN NECESSARY ATENTION TO YOURSELF. I don't wear anything gun related I don't have pro gun bumper stickers. I drive a 10 Y/O car. & I don't flash cash any WHERE. If the gang involvement home invasions continue we're going to see more instances where even if you defend your home sycessfully all you'll be doing is starting a war. So yes I'd still defend but I'd be planning to sell & move after.
 
I was out shooting in Oregon's forest with a friend some time ago and as we drove out to the main road we had to pass by a group of mexicans who weren't there when we first arrived. They were making a hell of a racket with all manner of firearms. Their looks encouraged us to speed up. It was an eye opener.
 
Never underestimate ANYBODY with a gun. Always assume that a potential or real opponent is more skilled than you are. I don't care if he looks and acts like Pee-wee Herman or Steve Urkel.

If you are forced to draw your weapon and fire in order to defend against an armed individual(s) who intends to shoot you and other innocents, shoot to kill. If they're armed and intend to shoot, don't fire to scare or wound them.
 
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