Gaps in the Firearms Market

[daniel craig]

Dream big!
Three years ago Ruger brought out the Ruger 57...........a gun literally no one had asked for, felt the need for, in a caliber with extremely limited popularity and widely criticized as "just a .22 magnum". That's twenty years after the FN Five-seveN........which had abysmal sales. It's biggest sales boost was caused by a mass murderer.

Now, the rest of the story.................S&W, Palmetto State Armory and KelTec all have 5.7x28 pistols.

Maybe twenty years from now US gun manufacturers will rediscover 7.62x25.

I was selling guns when that Ruger came out and from what I can tell the biggest flaw was that Ruger didn't also start pumping out ammunition for it. It was an affordable gun and a good alternative to the FN but it's failure ultimately lay in ammo availability. I think in the future if companies are going to want to revive or make popular, rounds that are less popular they need to do more than just chamber guns in them they need to produce enough ammo to make it worth buying a gun chambered in that caliber.

 

[.38 Special]

Pietta and Uberti have enjoyed a lock on the percussion revolver market for decades. Both brands have well documented flaws. How wonderful it would be ( and probably expensive as well) to have a Colt- style open top percussion revolver that was made as perfect as possible out of the box.

Exactly. It seems to me that the centerfire market has filled every reasonable niche - and quite a few unreasonable ones as well - but the blackpowder folks are left out in the cold. Not only are there no "centerfire" quality percussion revolvers available, but there are very few high quality and historically accurate flintlocks of any sort available off the shelf. It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: blackpowder tyros are told not to expect much from Italian repros, so the big Italian companies don't bother putting much into their guns. The rest of us are left either to fix (or have fixed) our underwhelming Italian guns, or pay top dollar and wait a few years for a custom gun.

 

[wayneinFL]

I feel strongly that the .327/.32h&r is a nearly ideal small/medium game round that can do SD and deer in a pinch too. I’d like to see more revolvers and rifles actually made for it. There have been runs in the past, but why can’t I walk into a store and actually buy one for a non-eye-popping price?

Same with .44spl revolvers. Sure, there have been runs…. But they sell out very quickly and then the prices go stratospheric for years until someone makes more. For that matter, the Charter Arms bulldog seems perennially a steady seller. Why can’t S&W or Ruger make a clone? There’s lots of people who would buy a snub 5 shot .44, but don’t want a Charter.

Pump rifles. The Henry is panned for its bad internal design but it’s available and must sell well enough to keep it in the marketplace. I think a .22lr done right would be very popular, especially if the gun world at large knew it existed. Also in centerfire calibers. A 9mm or 5.56 would be very popular.

Bolt action pistol calibers… look how expensive the Ruger 77/357 are. Pistol caliber bolt guns give you the satisfaction of a bolt rifle for target shooting or hunting, with dramatically more affordable ammo.

Runs of obscure ammo: PRVI Partizan does very well selling less common old military rounds to feed the millions of surplus firearms that have been sold. Would it kill Remington, Winchester, or Federal to do the same from time to time? (IOW: why have I been waiting two years to find a few boxes of 7.5 French, or 7.65 Mauser, or even 8x57?) We won’t even talk about .32 Colt or .32 rimfire…..

Dare I say? S&W’s offered as an option without the lock… this seems like a no brainer since I’d guess there’s a sizeable percentage of the shooting public who simply will not consider any S&W that has the lock, after the controversy which surrounded it.

I can think of a lot of other obscure niches but these seem like a good start.

S&W has made a couple of runs of 296s. Seems like they go ridiculously high, then end up on clearance, because the 37 people in the country who wanted one already bought it. Then 10 years later they're a fortune.

Speaking of 44 snubby revolvers, why do they have to be so big? It's been a hundred years since someone made 44 revolvers the size of a J frame. It seems to me someone could figure out how to do that again, but with a drop safety and a decent trigger. A 442 Webley size cartridge lobbing a 200-240 grain at 700-800 FPS out of a 2" barrel.

 

[LimaCharlie]

An M1A rifle in 458 Lott.

 

[dogtown tom]

I was selling guns when that Ruger came out and from what I can tell the biggest flaw was that Ruger didn't also start pumping out ammunition for it. It was an affordable gun and a good alternative to the FN but it's failure ultimately lay in ammo availability. I think in the future if companies are going to want to revive or make popular, rounds that are less popular they need to do more than just chamber guns in them they need to produce enough ammo to make it worth buying a gun chambered in that caliber.

Im pretty sure Ruger doesn't have an ammo plants. But yes, they could have partnered with an existing ammo manufacturer.

 

[daniel craig]

Im pretty sure Ruger doesn't have an ammo plants. But yes, they could have partnered with an existing ammo manufacturer.

Right, that's what I meant, a partnership.

 

[Riomouse911]

Like so many others have posted, any genuine gap is basically a niche for guys like us that don’t do all the popular Creedmoor-Grendel-PRC stuff; .327’s, .41’s, rifles in .257 Roberts, .35 Remington, etc.

I bet they’ll sell, and sell high, if guns like these are offered in limited numbers. You just need the up front capital like a Lipseys, TALO, Lew Horton, etc. to pay for them to tool up and make runs.

Stay safe.

 

[Simple Shooter]

What’s missing from the market isn’t calibers or capacity. What’s missing is guns that are properly designed to let people know you are an expert.

A gun with tribal tattoo scrollwork on the slide, grips that look like 5.11 cargo pants, and a beard hanging off the muzzle would sell like hotcakes.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

What’s missing from the market isn’t calibers or capacity. What’s missing is guns that are properly designed to let people know you are an expert.

Now that right there is funny stuff!

'Operator operating' engraved on the slide, in big letters.

 

[Mosin77]

Exactly. It seems to me that the centerfire market has filled every reasonable niche - and quite a few unreasonable ones as well - but the blackpowder folks are left out in the cold. Not only are there no "centerfire" quality percussion revolvers available, but there are very few high quality and historically accurate flintlocks of any sort available off the shelf. It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: blackpowder tyros are told not to expect much from Italian repros, so the big Italian companies don't bother putting much into their guns. The rest of us are left either to fix (or have fixed) our underwhelming Italian guns, or pay top dollar and wait a few years for a custom gun.

Crazy thing is, Uberti can actually make some very nice stuff. They just don’t, when it comes to cap and ball pistol repros. That said, they have gotten a lot better.

Off the shelf flintlocks are a dismal market. When my best advice for anyone is “spend $1500 for this kit” …that’s a market gap for sure. Maybe not one that’s easily filled, though. They’re not easy to make right, but there ought to be an option that’s not A) full custom and very pricey, B) build it yourself, or C) junk or one step above it.

 

[.38 Special]

Crazy thing is, Uberti can actually make some very nice stuff. They just don’t, when it comes to cap and ball pistol repros. That said, they have gotten a lot better.

Off the shelf flintlocks are a dismal market. When my best advice for anyone is “spend $1500 for this kit” …that’s a market gap for sure. Maybe not one that’s easily filled, though. They’re not easy to make right, but there ought to be an option that’s not A) full custom and very pricey, B) build it yourself, or C) junk or one step above it.

If nothing else, I simply can't imagine why Uberti doesn't fix their arbor issue. There are so many nice features on their percussion revolvers, but the short arbors make them basically wall hangers until fixed.

Along the same lines, Pedersoli makes some reasonable quality flintlock rifles - as long as you don't require perfect historical accuracy - and then saddles them with crummy lock geometry. In many cases you can buy aftermarket replacement locks, but jeez, why can't Pedersoli just make them properly in the first place? It's not like the castings would cost any more.

I can only assume that most people don't really expect these things to work very well, so don't complain when their expectations are met.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, the old "They oughta make" and "fills the caliber gap". How many proprietary cartridges came out of the latter-and have since died on the vine ? 45 GAP anyone ? The Bren Ten. The 40 S&W seems to have gone out of fashion, the 38 Super and 41 Magnum have survived but are niche rounds. Rifles with interchangeable barrels-the SIG SHR, e.g.-don't seem to have caught on, nor did the Dan Wesson.

 

[1KPerDay]

An M1A rifle in 458 Lott.

They made a Garand in .458 Winmag, but I guess that just isn't enough

 

[Armored farmer]

If I can't have a double rifle with regulated barrels, (in this age of computerized everything) then how about a quality break-action single barrel like Blazer that doesn't cost (nearly) five figures. And how about making it with interchangeable barrels that I can go from 223 to 7mm-08 to 45-70 on the same chassis.

 

[1KPerDay]

If I can't have a double rifle with regulated barrels, (in this age of computerized everything) then how about a quality break-action single barrel like Blazer that doesn't cost (nearly) five figures. And how about making it with interchangeable barrels that I can go from 223 to 7mm-08 to 45-70 on the same chassis.

Yeah, surpised someone hasn't bought the NEF/H&R tooling and started up that concern again. People are fanatical fans of those things.

 

[Ethan Verity]

I want to see ridiculously tiny semi-autos again! Not because there is any practical reason for them, but because they are awesome and would make a fun range "toy".

 

[Mosin77]

If nothing else, I simply can't imagine why Uberti doesn't fix their arbor issue. There are so many nice features on their percussion revolvers, but the short arbors make them basically wall hangers until fixed.

Along the same lines, Pedersoli makes some reasonable quality flintlock rifles - as long as you don't require perfect historical accuracy - and then saddles them with crummy lock geometry. In many cases you can buy aftermarket replacement locks, but jeez, why can't Pedersoli just make them properly in the first place? It's not like the castings would cost any more.

I can only assume that most people don't really expect these things to work very well, so don't complain when their expectations are met.

100%. The Pedersoli fit and finish is nice, price point is almost fair for what you get, relatively speaking…. But their designs are just not quite there. If they tweaked their lock geometry, ditched their patent breech, and changed up some of their stock architecture just a bit they’d go from “hard to really recommend for the money” to “seriously don’t buy anything else.” It wouldn’t take much.

 

[Armored farmer]

Yeah, surpised someone hasn't bought the NEF/H&R tooling and started up that concern again. People are fanatical fans of those things.

I have heard of that. It is called chronic Handi-itis. The diagnosis is easy. Anyone with six or more Handi-Rifles should seek treatment....before its too advanced.

 

[mountain_man]

I'm with you on the affordable single shots, and in a wide range of calibers. Cva single shots have gone crazy now. I haven't been able to find a reasonable contender frame. About the only game in town is Henry which I havent been able to lay hands on one. I'd really like a synthetic 327 magnum single shot. I feel like it would be a great stepping stone rifle after a 22lr. Could use 32 shorts, longs, 32 h&r magnum and 327 mag. I guess technically the same thing could be done with 38/357 mag/357 max, but I like different stuff

 

[ExtremeSquared]

Subsonic 7.62x39 selection is almost non-existent considering it's basically identical to 300 blackout.

 

[gobsauce]

If nothing else, I simply can't imagine why Uberti doesn't fix their arbor issue. There are so many nice features on their percussion revolvers, but the short arbors make them basically wall hangers until fixed.

Along the same lines, Pedersoli makes some reasonable quality flintlock rifles - as long as you don't require perfect historical accuracy - and then saddles them with crummy lock geometry. In many cases you can buy aftermarket replacement locks, but jeez, why can't Pedersoli just make them properly in the first place? It's not like the castings would cost any more.

I can only assume that most people don't really expect these things to work very well, so don't complain when their expectations are met.

If I remember correctly, technically they're sold as "built kits ". I guess in that case, you're supposed to expect to work on it yourself.

 

[Skribs]

There's always the crazy things that would be fun like a center-fire LeMat or a straight walled 50bmg ( call it the 751 Squirrel Annihilator ) but for real things that are easy?

12 Gauge From Hell is a thing.

 

[Skribs]

Starter kits for new shooters.

When I first got into guitar, I got a "starter kit", which included the guitar, a strap, an amp, and some picks. Everything I needed to get started. All of it incredibly cheap and I've upgraded out of every piece, but for $200 I got everything I needed to start playing guitar. In fact, most of the stuff was basically free, because the guitar itself was worth $200. It was a way to get me in the door so I'd buy more expensive stuff later (which I certainly did).

So how about a "AR Starter Kit", which has:

• AR-15
• Weapon Light
• Red Dot
• Vertical Grip
• Sling
• 2 magazines
• 100 rounds of .223
• 5-pack of targets
• Cleaning Kit
• DVD and website information for basics on gun safety, gun laws, and marksmanship.

We're talking the cheapest AR, the cheapest light, the cheapest red dot...you get the point. The total package cost could be around $700.

Another option would be a cheap compact semi-auto handgun, which comes with a pistol light and kydex OWB holster and mag holder, 3 magazines, 100 rounds of 9mm, 5-pack of targets, cleaning kit, and DVD. This package would probably be around $400.

 

[dogtown tom]

Starter kits for new shooters.

When I first got into guitar, I got a "starter kit", which included the guitar, a strap, an amp, and some picks. Everything I needed to get started. All of it incredibly cheap and I've upgraded out of every piece, but for $200 I got everything I needed to start playing guitar. In fact, most of the stuff was basically free, because the guitar itself was worth $200. It was a way to get me in the door so I'd buy more expensive stuff later (which I certainly did).

So how about a "AR Starter Kit", which has:

• AR-15
• Weapon Light
• Red Dot
• Vertical Grip
• Sling
• 2 magazines
• 100 rounds of .223
• 5-pack of targets
• Cleaning Kit
• DVD and website information for basics on gun safety, gun laws, and marksmanship.

We're talking the cheapest AR, the cheapest light, the cheapest red dot...you get the point. The total package cost could be around $700.

You left out bayonet.
Excepting the ammunition, several manufacturers (S&W, Ruger, Springfield, PSA, etc) already do that as a factory SKU and have for years.........they put a cheap near useless red dot, a cheap uncomfortable 1" sling, and other cheap useless "accessories" in the box. The target market is the ignorant buyer who doesn't know how to use them or even why he needs them. I've transferred "optics ready" AR's to buyers who didn't know that meant "without any type of sights at all". I've transferred S&W M&P15-22's to buyers who didn't know the difference between centerfire and rimfire.....kinda important when they bought that gun for home defense.

Without knowing the intended use for this "starter kit" AR, having several hundred $$$ worth of cheap Chineseium may be completely wrong for the buyer. If he's a plinker, hunter, target shooter.......a weapon light? Why? If he's a hunter that red dot is great for 100 yards or less, but not so good for longer distances.

They don't put ammunition in the box with the gun because of federal law.
A weapon light without training is a very dangerous thing.


For decades, retailers have routinely offered such starter kits. For the three times a year shooter, the once a year deer hunter or those that don't bother with even sighting in their scope/red dot/etc they are perfect ways to make the buyer feel complete or that he got added value with his purchase.

A good gun retailer who knows the buyers intended use will be able to recommend appropriate accessories for that use.

Another option would be a cheap compact semi-auto handgun, which comes with a pistol light and kydex OWB holster and mag holder, 3 magazines, 100 rounds of 9mm, 5-pack of targets, cleaning kit, and DVD. This package would probably be around $400.

Again, you left out bayonet.
Again, its been done for decades. (except for the ammunition as explained above.)


Any pistol light or red dot you get in the starter kit at the price point you describe is without a doubt beaten in lumens by a WalMart Ray O Vac for under $10. That red dot may have a red dot, but it won't hold zero, will be fuzzy and worst of all dangerous. Red Dots, lights and lasers don't tell the bullet where to go.

 

[Skribs]

You left out bayonet.
Excepting the ammunition, several manufacturers (S&W, Ruger, Springfield, PSA, etc) already do that as a factory SKU and have for years.........they put a cheap near useless red dot, a cheap uncomfortable 1" sling, and other cheap useless "accessories" in the box. The target market is the ignorant buyer who doesn't know how to use them or even why he needs them. I've transferred "optics ready" AR's to buyers who didn't know that meant "without any type of sights at all". I've transferred S&W M&P15-22's to buyers who didn't know the difference between centerfire and rimfire.....kinda important when they bought that gun for home defense.

Without knowing the intended use for this "starter kit" AR, having several hundred $$$ worth of cheap Chineseium may be completely wrong for the buyer. If he's a plinker, hunter, target shooter.......a weapon light? Why? If he's a hunter that red dot is great for 100 yards or less, but not so good for longer distances.

They don't put ammunition in the box with the gun because of federal law.
A weapon light without training is a very dangerous thing.


For decades, retailers have routinely offered such starter kits. For the three times a year shooter, the once a year deer hunter or those that don't bother with even sighting in their scope/red dot/etc they are perfect ways to make the buyer feel complete or that he got added value with his purchase.

A good gun retailer who knows the buyers intended use will be able to recommend appropriate accessories for that use.






Again, you left out bayonet.
Again, its been done for decades. (except for the ammunition as explained above.)

Any pistol light or red dot you get in the starter kit at the price point you describe is without a doubt beaten in lumens by a WalMart Ray O Vac for under $10. That red dot may have a red dot, but it won't hold zero, will be fuzzy and worst of all dangerous. Red Dots, lights and lasers don't tell the bullet where to go.

Problem 3: This "starter kit" is singular in purpose.
Discussion: True, this is more of a self-defense kit. But it includes the items that are generally considered standard-issue for self-defense weapons. This is the "I just heard crime went up 20% in my town and I want to get something to protect myself" kit. However, you could design similar kits for other purposes.

Problem 2: Ammo in the same box is illegal.
Solution: Have a package deal, where it's included in the price, but not physically in the same box.

Problem 3: Cheap stuff is cheap for a reason.
Discussion: New shooters would be buying that cheap stuff anyway. What's the difference if new shooters get it in the form of a $20 order to Amazon or if they get it in the kit? At least this gives them an idea of what is considered standard. Also notice I did not say a red dot for the pistol.

Buyers can help guide customers. But new customers might not be sure if these suggestions are legitimate, or if these are the kind of suggestions you get from a skeevy mechanic that's going to "find" $2000 worth of repairs that you need right now.

I don't know what you mean when you say a light without training is dangerous. If anything, it's less dangerous, because it encourages you to be able to see what you're shooting. Even if it were, education is part of the package I suggested.