gas rant.....

[Art Eatman]

I imagine if the Iraniian president would quit jacking his jaws with all this war talk, the spot price of crude would drop about $15, and gasoline by some 50¢ or so.

Drilling in the ANWR, plus additional offshore exploration/development/production would make another $10 to $15 drop. But, that's two years or more in the doing. I really doubt oil will ever drop below maybe $40, or gasoline below $2. (If so, it's gonna be short term.)

Bush & Co. have damn-all to do with the price of oil. The marketplace, world demand, uncertainties in politics and Econ 101 are the controls, albeit varying in degree from time to time.

Art

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Buy gas at Citgo. At least their profits go to charity.

BS. Citgo is owned by Venezuela, ergo, Hugo Chaves. Buy my gas from a communist dictator? Naw. Not in this lifetime. I'd hardly call Chavez a charity.

Woody

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Just how does it help, again? When ethanol is mixed in our fuel, we burn more eth & gasoline. Let us take it as a given that the oxygenates make it burn a teensy bit cleaner (a not inconsiderable granting of a point, considering how clean burning new autos are, nowadays...an example would be my Honda Element, which qualifies as a Kaliforny LEV). When burning that mixed fuel, more pollutants are expelled into the atmo than if the auto was running straight gasoline. The loss in fuel efficiency outweighs the beneficent effects of the oxygenate (eth). It is a bad deal for everybody excpet the eth industry.

I'd like to see your sources. Maybe you're right, technology does sometimes outpace regulation, but my understanding that in non-compliance basins such as Los Angeles and San Joaquin valley, these things significantly reduce pollution. I suppose the alternative would be to mandate such vehicles as your Honda. The idea is to get results, and if that's the best way, I'm all for it.

I'd also like to see the net mileage figures. If the mileage is lower, but we've also extended the volume of fuel, it would be a net increase. Your example, for instance of 10% additive leading to 5% lowered mileage sounds like a net increase of fuel to me.

 

[MCgunner]

I don't know much about ethanol, but methanol is jetted roughly 3x that of an equivalent gasoline engine. However, though it has less energy, when that much of it combusts, it makes a lot more horsepower than a properly jetted gasoline equivalent engine. So, it would not get three times less fuel mileage, maybe a third. It would get less, but not three times less, not nearly that much. I have not run this fuel, but read about it in the techincal racing stuff, where my knowledge of it comes from. There are alcohol classes in drag racing as well as the kart guys that run it.

 

[Ivy Mike]

http://www.afvi.org/ethanol.html

Ethanol, when burned releases fewer harmful pollutants than an equivalent amount of gasoline. Now, we are dealing with a mixed fuel when we discuss E85 (85% ethanol 15% gasoline) but because you are burning less gasoline, you are looking at a significantly lower amount of pollution. Yes, todays vehicles are notably cleaner running than yesteryear, but they still aren't perfect. Ethanol isn't perfect either, but it is better.

oh, and jfruser, methanol isn't the only alcohol available from wood. Google wood ethanol and you'll come up with a number of references on the subject.

 

[Firethorn]

MCgunner, Wiki says that at 9 cents a kw/h, $1 gives you the same milage as a gallon of gas. Mind you, this is gasoline in a hybrid, not a standard car, so you'd likely save even more.

As I'm paying 7 cents a kw/h, $2.63/gallon at last fillup, my car fuel bill would be a third as much. Slap a seperate meter on the charging station(Though my daily trips could be powered through a standard socket overnight) to keep track.


On Ethanol:
While ethanol has about 2/3 the energy per gallon, I think that much of the problem with the loss of fuel economy is because you have engines that are still optimized for standard gasoline. With E85's 108 octane, you can ramp the compression way up, creating a more efficient engine that at least partially makes up for the loss of energy per gallon. Others have pointed out the savings in pollution. Plus, I don't think that either ethanol or biodiesel are going to replace diofuels on their own. It's going to be a much more mixed market than today.


On Electric:
The problem with a pure-electric vehicle is that in order to get decent range, you need a huge, expensive battery pack. Making it a hybrid allows you to reduce the battery demands substantially(by like a factor of 10) and still cover 95% of trips, and the ICE is available for longer trips.

As for a battery pack only being good for 80k miles, they've gotten that a whole lot better, and I'm hearing that, like lead-acid batteries, they're so recyclable that you'd be able to recoup most of the cost by turning in your old batteries.

If we do end up going with pure-electric vehicles, I could see charging stations being installed in restraunt's parking lots and such. It still takes 30-60 minutes to charge them, and it takes megawatts to charge them that quickly.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Anyone know how many gallons of gasoline ExxonMobil produces or sells in a year?

 

[Shadizar]

Peak Oil. Right now the upward pressure on prices is in part due to the conversion from MTBE to ethanol additives. However, crude oil prices are at all time highs (minus inflation-but not far from that).

The fact is, global demand for oil has outstripped supply, or damn near. With global economies expanding at fantastic rates it would follow that the global supply of oil would follow. That is not the case http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/4/15/72931/5527.

Geopolitical issues are providing a great upward pressure on prices, but those are not the only causes. A primary effect of Peak Oil (or the effect when we near it) is unstable oil markets http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf

Also, you have the introduction of the oil ETF. More investors are crowding into the energy and commodity markets. Why? If you have a moment you should read the above link. It is enlightening.

-Shadizar

 

[justashooter]

when in china, i ride this bad boy. electric, with 40kph and 70-100 km range on an 8 hour charge. works great for me and the babe. funny the other day when i had the 6'3" 260# dane on the bitch seat. still at same max speed, but there is no way we coulda stopped.

cost about 350$ with alarm and electric alarm activated wheel lock. version without alarm is about 275$. gas version under 50cc and electric don't require tag or driving liscense. a small street bike that is marked 48cc, but actually 70cc, is an option, but i didn't want the gas power maintinance, and really bought this for yang. she didn't like the idea of gas.

 

[c_yeager]

when in china, i ride this bad boy. electric, with 40kph and 70-100 km range on an 8 hour charge.

I can see those catching on in big cities where people have short commutes and difficulty finding parking. That thing would be perfect for my 7 mile surface street commute. As it is I get about 40-45 on my CB750 so it doesnt concern me that much, but it sure is nice to save money here and there to save more for the fun bikes on the weekend.

I wonder why they dont import those into the U.S. If they can sell those stupid segwey things here then they could certainly sell something as usefull as an electric scooter.

*edit* I just noticed the 40 Kph top speed. That probably explains the problem as that wouldnt be a safe max speed on most American streets, if they can make a bigger one that could do 40-45MPH then we would be in business.

 

[Ivy Mike]

c_yeager, you'll find that many jurisdictions place limits on scooters like that.
You don't need a license to ride them, nor do you need insurance or registration, but they aren't allowed to go over 25 or 30 mph.

40kph is just a shade under 25mph.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, when that lithium-ion powered Chinese scooter comes out that I linked to, I'm going to be trying my best to get one. 2K is dirt cheap. It's supposed to get 95 miles on a charge, take 90 minutes to charge from scratch, and runs 60 mph. Unlike small engines, you can run an electric wide open and not hurt it and the torque will pull an amazing about of weight, as you found out with that smaller scooter. I'd think head winds wouldn't affect this electric like it does my 80 mpg 200cc dual purpose bike. Yeah, my SV650S gets 45 or so mpg, but I'd rather not have to stop at a gas station on my commutes. And, the idea of building a solar charging station is rather intriguing to me. It might be viable with a little scooter that doesn't have so many amp hours, is more "electron efficient" if you will, than an electric car.

 

[wingman]

Mass transit for working poor, automobiles for the wealthy, yep, that may work.

 

[seeker_two]

Mass transit for working poor, automobiles for the wealthy, yep, that may work.

It certainly made the Soviet Union the workers' paradise we know today...

Sorry to burst the Kool-Aid bubble, but Bush & Co. DO have some culpability here...

1. Bush has been talking big about ANWAR and expanding drilling in the continental US. However, when political push comes to shove, he caved in to every Dem objection to the plan and signed energy bills that did NOTHING to prepare us for an unstable Middle East (made even more unstable by Bush's reluctance to share his plans with ANYONE)...

2. The EPA, which controls the mandate for "clean air" and gasoline formulations for each region, is an Executive Branch agency--as in under Bush's direct control. With a stroke of a pen, he could eliminate the "boutique gasoline" mandates and the regs limiting gas production and refinery building TODAY. He could have done that FOUR YEARS AGO. He still has done NOTHING. :banghead:

3. The FTC and the Attorney Generals' Office are also Executive Branch agencies. Anyone ever hear of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and Standard Oil?

4. And what about all the "reparations" that we should be getting from Iraq for "liberating" them?

But the "windfall profit tax" is an even WORSE idea. If the oil companies don't deserve to gouge us, the Federal Government deserves it LESS...

What should we do? I have no idea....but we'd better do it quick. This "wonderful economy" Bush says we're experiencing is about to evaporate...and so are Republican seats in Congress...

 

[RealGun]

What they did last year was release oil reserves. The price adjusted quickly, and everyone went about their business. Congress did nothing, fighting off giving an oil economy to Alaska.

 

[Tokugawa]

The main reason we have less money to spend is that every year the Gov. takes more of it in taxes. We get less, they get more. We are pushing the magic 50% figure now when all forms of taxation are included, and that does not count inflation.

 

[c_yeager]

Mass transit for working poor, automobiles for the wealthy, yep, that may work.

Uh yeah. People get what they can afford. Private jets for the wealthy, Coach for the working poor. Explain to me what is wrong with that.

 

[1911JMB]

<BS. Citgo is owned by Venezuela, ergo, Hugo Chaves. Buy my gas from a communist dictator? Naw. Not in this lifetime. I'd hardly call Chavez a charity.>

Here is the way I see it. You can help subsidise gas for the people of Veneuela and poor people in parts of the US, or you can help the trickle down theory. The trickle down theory is contributing money towards friends of Bush like Lee Raymond so that it can turn into fat and trickle down into his ass, gut, and many chins. Another option is to send money to Saudi Arabia so that royalty brats can buy yachts and cruise the oceans soliciting hookers, and issuing death threats to those that try to expose them.

Hugo Chaves makes no money from citgo profits, and he has said many times he wants gas to be cheaper in the US. Regardless of everything else he does, I'd rather support subsidising gas for Venezuelans and poor people in the US then the other options.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Here is the way I see it. You can help subsidise gas for the people of Veneuela and poor people in parts of the US, or you can help the trickle down theory. The trickle down theory is contributing money towards friends of Bush like Lee Raymond so that it can turn into fat and trickle down into his ass, gut, and many chins. Another option is to send money to Saudi Arabia so that royalty brats can buy yachts and cruise the oceans soliciting hookers, and issuing death threats to those that try to expose them.

Hugo Chaves makes no money from citgo profits, and he has said many times he wants gas to be cheaper in the US. Regardless of everything else he does, I'd rather support subsidising gas for Venezuelans and poor people in the US then the other options.

Workers of the world, Unite! Don't send another dime to those evil capitalist pig-dogs that provide paychecks for some 100,000 American workers. Buy Communist instead, and rest easy knowing that your money is lining the pockets of the most honest and benevolent dictators in all of South America.

It's your money, and I won't deign to tell you how to spend it. But do you honestly believe that Hugo Chavez doesn't receive any benefits from the sale of Venezuelan oil? Do you honestly believe that average Americans don't benefit from the sale of American oil?

 

[Pork Fat]

It's easy to call for the government to subsidize energy independence. The sad truth is, as soon as the gov. starts paying for something, the price goes up. No government program is as efficient as the most inefficient corporation. The open market will find the energy source of the future, not the Switchgrass Development Administration.

Subsidies are taxes taken from us and handed to charlatans. We would be idiots to think that we are saving money at the pump, when we have already paid out of our federal taxes for development and production. As Winston Churchill said, a country that tries to stimulate it's economy by spending tax revenue is like a man standing in a bucket trying to lift himself by the handle.

However energy prices affect the next elections, we will get the leaders that tell us what we want to hear, not what we need to hear. Apparently, many of us want to hear that greedy corporations are to blame. We can't seem to figure out if Bush is more dastardly evil or comically inept, but we know it's his fault too, oil connections you know.

How many of us will gloat over the "republicans getting theirs" when the Dems raise gas taxes every time they take a break from gun control?

 

[1911JMB]

I honestly don't believe that Hugo recieves profits from Citgo profits, and although I do believe that some of the money from US gas goes to hard working americans, huge profits go to fatcats seperating the rich further from the middle class, and I won't support that. I'd rather pay for cheap gas in Venezuela than pay for a jet for Lee Raymond.

Tell you what, I'm sick of people harassing me about my Sig line, so I'll get rid of it.

 

[roo_ster]

1911JMB:
I think you have let your resentment cloud your judgement.

Chavez has taken & held control of Venezuela's gov't by force and fraud. He has turned it into an instrument of his will. Just because Citgo profits do not go into an account named "H Chavez" means nothing. He still controls the $$$ and uses them as he will.

How many heads has Lee Raymond busted open? How many opposition leaders has Lee Raymond shut down with threats of and actual imprisonment? How many elections has LR fixed?

Even if LR & all his ilk are guilty of everything you think they are, they are still angels in comparison to the Venzuelan strongman.

 

[Art Eatman]

I'm in sympathy with the venting, but this hasn't been much of a THR thread from the gitgo. Problem is, it's six pages and going nowhere.

Re-start at APS if ya like...

Art