Fudgie Ghost
Member
Geek: damn! you took the words right out of my mouth!
Gender and Guns
- Thread starter Gus Dddysgrl
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Brian Dale
Member
My family has been in the Midwest for several generations. Back in the sodbuster days, men spent more time in the fields and women spent more time in the house or the garden. Still, being able to shoot was a basic skill like washing your hands: everybody needed to know how to do it.
My father was a federal LEO; I think my mother might see carrying a handgun all day as akin to taking out the garbage or baling hay: women can do it, but why do so if your husband's doing it, unless the task takes more people? We (two boys and a girl) were all expected to learn to cook and wash dishes, to iron and repair clothes, to shoot and to bait a fish hook (somehow, shooting and fishing were not seen as chores by us kids, though
). We were taught that we would need to know how to do these things when we grew up. She knows how to shoot, but she looks at shooters the way I look at basketball fans: there's nothing wrong with basketball, but if I were watching sports, I'd rather watch football.
In my wider family of aunts and uncles, cousins and so on, a lot of women have and shoot guns, but there's some sex-role splitting with a few couples. A similar thing happens with driving tractors or joining volunteer fire departments: numerically, more men than women in my family do these. I have more women shooters among my rural relatives than my urban ones, but it's a matter of degree rather than a strict distinction.
In my immediate family, my sister's the best rifle shot and the most accomplished big game hunter. She also lives in a city, and has always lived in cities. Nobody in the family gives it a second thought that it's a woman who's the best rifle shot among us. We're proud of her 'cause she's good.
My father was a federal LEO; I think my mother might see carrying a handgun all day as akin to taking out the garbage or baling hay: women can do it, but why do so if your husband's doing it, unless the task takes more people? We (two boys and a girl) were all expected to learn to cook and wash dishes, to iron and repair clothes, to shoot and to bait a fish hook (somehow, shooting and fishing were not seen as chores by us kids, though
). We were taught that we would need to know how to do these things when we grew up. She knows how to shoot, but she looks at shooters the way I look at basketball fans: there's nothing wrong with basketball, but if I were watching sports, I'd rather watch football.In my wider family of aunts and uncles, cousins and so on, a lot of women have and shoot guns, but there's some sex-role splitting with a few couples. A similar thing happens with driving tractors or joining volunteer fire departments: numerically, more men than women in my family do these. I have more women shooters among my rural relatives than my urban ones, but it's a matter of degree rather than a strict distinction.
In my immediate family, my sister's the best rifle shot and the most accomplished big game hunter. She also lives in a city, and has always lived in cities. Nobody in the family gives it a second thought that it's a woman who's the best rifle shot among us. We're proud of her 'cause she's good.
Holly76201
Member
Gus,
good for your willingness to speak up in class.
My idea for your project is for you to have someone take pics of you shooting. Hopefully, they can get some of you in a Weaver stance with cartridge casings arcing through the air., then pics shooting at silouette target in distance and finally you holding target with a nice tight group through the chest, head and one in the groin. A caption that comes to mind is "HANDGUNS...the ultimate female empowerment tool"
good for your willingness to speak up in class.
My idea for your project is for you to have someone take pics of you shooting. Hopefully, they can get some of you in a Weaver stance with cartridge casings arcing through the air., then pics shooting at silouette target in distance and finally you holding target with a nice tight group through the chest, head and one in the groin. A caption that comes to mind is "HANDGUNS...the ultimate female empowerment tool"
rayra
member
Gus - "T-shirt or something like that with a pro-gun statement on it" - Look no further - http://www.thoseshirts.com/diversity.html
Trisha
Member
(impish grin)
Wonderful!
We agree to disagree, guys - but, feel free to keep in touch with me off the board so the threads stay on-topic, OK?
Sounds like I've got job security!
An' I LOVE the trigger lock on the fire extinguisher! Outstanding, babe!
Trisha
(never one to impulsively ascribe malicious predilictions, when acknowledging a bored cosmos fits just as neatly. . .)
Wonderful!
We agree to disagree, guys - but, feel free to keep in touch with me off the board so the threads stay on-topic, OK?
Sounds like I've got job security!
An' I LOVE the trigger lock on the fire extinguisher! Outstanding, babe!
Trisha
(never one to impulsively ascribe malicious predilictions, when acknowledging a bored cosmos fits just as neatly. . .)
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Why, how excruciatingly unladylike!
BluesBear
member
I have found that there are a LOT of women who would like to know more about firearms and shooting sports but they just don't know how or who to ask.
I always pick the checkout aisle at the grocery with the female cashier when I am buying my reading material. It's refreshing to hear them say thinks like, "My dad has one like that", or "My husband reads this too."
But my favorite is when one asks "Where do you go to learn more about this stuff?" Heck by the time I get home dinner is usually thawed.
(I have subscriptions to Maxim and Stuff but the gun mags I pick up at the grocery.
After all I don't want them to get the wrong impression about me.)
I always pick the checkout aisle at the grocery with the female cashier when I am buying my reading material. It's refreshing to hear them say thinks like, "My dad has one like that", or "My husband reads this too."
But my favorite is when one asks "Where do you go to learn more about this stuff?" Heck by the time I get home dinner is usually thawed.
(I have subscriptions to Maxim and Stuff but the gun mags I pick up at the grocery.
After all I don't want them to get the wrong impression about me.) Hkmp5sd
Member
How about when she says, "Check out the review on page 36. Great article!"
Ah gender roles.
You guys take me back to my college days.
First off. I might open a door for my ladyfriend, this is not a sign of my open "domination" of wymyn or whatever. Like Steve, I never was issued a secret patriarchal decoder ring. I do it because it's a courtesy.
I wonder, how many guys here can sew?
I know I can replace buttons or make a rudimentary repair, I have a good buddy who is a darn good seamstress.. err seamster?
How many of you guys can cook? Ok how many of you can bake?
I know.. I'm an excellent cook. Heck if I launched a second career it might be as a chef. But you know what? I can't bake. I can't even bake a tollhouse cookie. I also cannot wrap a present to save my life. Oh, sure if you want a plain brown wrapper trimmed with duct tape I could oblige you... some of these things are 'genetic' for lack of a better word. I also know way more about classical ballet than one should know, as a function of my minor in Russian Art History. (A subject so esoteric that I rarely find anyone to discuss Rayonism and the dawn of avante gard cinema pre Eisenstin but I digress.) We often have skills that no one expects.
I know a few 'tom girls" (I'll be that term is totally un-pc these days) that shoot and I know a few lipstick lesbians that shoot better than I do. Know a LOT of guys that don't know a gun from a sharp stick.
One famous cartoonist said that if you give two 4 year-olds a banana, the girl with make it into an fashion accessory and the boy will make it into a weapon.
My GF practices karate, did a stint in the Army in Psyops and works in the male dominated field of architecture programming. She's better at math than me, grew up hunting with her father, makes her own tea and herbal remedies with a knowledge of flora that is downright scary. She shoots a pistol that's too big for my hands, does her own carpentry and yet still manages to look good in heels. (And no she doesn't have a sister).
We don't stay 4 forever, "gender roles" can change over time.
You guys take me back to my college days.
First off. I might open a door for my ladyfriend, this is not a sign of my open "domination" of wymyn or whatever. Like Steve, I never was issued a secret patriarchal decoder ring. I do it because it's a courtesy.
I wonder, how many guys here can sew?
I know I can replace buttons or make a rudimentary repair, I have a good buddy who is a darn good seamstress.. err seamster?
How many of you guys can cook? Ok how many of you can bake?
I know.. I'm an excellent cook. Heck if I launched a second career it might be as a chef. But you know what? I can't bake. I can't even bake a tollhouse cookie. I also cannot wrap a present to save my life. Oh, sure if you want a plain brown wrapper trimmed with duct tape I could oblige you... some of these things are 'genetic' for lack of a better word. I also know way more about classical ballet than one should know, as a function of my minor in Russian Art History. (A subject so esoteric that I rarely find anyone to discuss Rayonism and the dawn of avante gard cinema pre Eisenstin but I digress.) We often have skills that no one expects.
I know a few 'tom girls" (I'll be that term is totally un-pc these days) that shoot and I know a few lipstick lesbians that shoot better than I do. Know a LOT of guys that don't know a gun from a sharp stick.
One famous cartoonist said that if you give two 4 year-olds a banana, the girl with make it into an fashion accessory and the boy will make it into a weapon.
My GF practices karate, did a stint in the Army in Psyops and works in the male dominated field of architecture programming. She's better at math than me, grew up hunting with her father, makes her own tea and herbal remedies with a knowledge of flora that is downright scary. She shoots a pistol that's too big for my hands, does her own carpentry and yet still manages to look good in heels. (And no she doesn't have a sister).
We don't stay 4 forever, "gender roles" can change over time.
Hkmp5sd
Member
Me! There aren't too many seamstresses on a submarine and no store to buy new uniforms.
Dr. Rob, the word you're after is "tailor."
What I'd like to know about gender roles and shooting is this: why does the top woman shooter so often lag so far behind the top man shooter?
Look at the results of the past few Steel Challenge championships. The top shooter is inevitably male, and the top female is usually 25th or more overall. Why such a lag?
There's surely no innate reason this would be so. Sure, men have bigger muscles and generally more stamina, but shooting doesn't require either of these. Sure, there are more men shooters than there are women shooters, but that explains only why there aren't more women at the upper levels, not why they're not there at all. It's certainly not for lack of competitive drive in women, unless female Olympians and marathoners are freaks of nature.
Most firearms instructors claim that women are easier to teach than men are and that they are innately better shots when they begin shooting. (That's ignoring klutzes such as yours truly, who started out lousy, thanks.)
So what's the deal? Why aren't the top women shooters every bit as fast and accurate as the top men shooters?
pax
Good point Pax...
IPSC isn't a terribly 'physical" sport, you'd think that women would score just as high as the men, esp. at top competitive levls.
But isn't it true that this year's Camp Perry champ is a woman?
IPSC isn't a terribly 'physical" sport, you'd think that women would score just as high as the men, esp. at top competitive levls.
But isn't it true that this year's Camp Perry champ is a woman?
XLMiguel
Member
Intersting point, Pax. I seem to recall reading somewhere that women tend to have better fine motor control than men, and a higher tolerance for tedious, repeiditive tasks, both of which should help in target matches. As you pointed out, shear strength isn't a differentiator, and stamina-wise, many women athletes give nothing away to the guys. So what gives?
But I don't have an answer to your question
Det. Charlie, I feel your pain, but 'gender roles' was proper use in that context in that it refers to things 'traditionally' associated with masculine or feminine roles. No one has a gender, they have a sex. Whether [or how well] their gender identity matches their sex, well, I guess that's part of what makes life interesting . . .
But I don't have an answer to your question
Det. Charlie, I feel your pain, but 'gender roles' was proper use in that context in that it refers to things 'traditionally' associated with masculine or feminine roles. No one has a gender, they have a sex. Whether [or how well] their gender identity matches their sex, well, I guess that's part of what makes life interesting . . .
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Not remarkably well, but the curtains in most of my house are mostly presentable, and all the stout canvas covers on digital gadgets in the studio fit pretty well. Sewing turns out to be a lot like rolling your own ammunition: anybody can slop through it, but real expertise takes awhile.
BerettaNut92
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Messages
- 9,723
Whatever the meaning of 'gender', I'm sure Gus wrote 'gender and guns' because if she wrote 'sex and guns'.....
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I get saddened by the degree of gender stereotyping ........ altho there are areas where each outshines the other .. for what I would call ''natural'' reasons ...... but it is probably just as wrong to try and produce total parity just ''because''.
Shooting tho is a special case IMO where gender differences should be not even of concern .... can the ''person'' shoot? Does that ''person''enjoy shooting? And, bottom line .....
That ''person'' has the same right of self defence as any other!
Shooting tho is a special case IMO where gender differences should be not even of concern .... can the ''person'' shoot? Does that ''person''enjoy shooting? And, bottom line .....
That ''person'' has the same right of self defence as any other!
BluesBear
member
If she had titled this thread Sex & Guns we'd be on page 20 by now.
However, I would like to go on the record for now and forever as being very much in favor of both.
sm
member
BluesBear.
Careful, Gus is a real lady,she has a fiance' , her dad is member...and dad has been known to "drill" into thick skulls, that which needed to be retained.
Careful, Gus is a real lady,she has a fiance' , her dad is member...and dad has been known to "drill" into thick skulls, that which needed to be retained.
BluesBear
member
re1973,
I am fully aware that Gus is very much a lady and I have never said anything to imply differently. Her writings and opinions are held in high esteem in my household.
I am fully aware that Gus is very much a lady and I have never said anything to imply differently. Her writings and opinions are held in high esteem in my household.
sm
member
BluesBear
I am aware you are, and in no way meant otherwise.
Smilies used indicated liking your post and a poke of fun at her dad.
I am aware you are, and in no way meant otherwise.
Smilies used indicated liking your post and a poke of fun at her dad.
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
With exceptions.
I know one lady (riflewoman) who fired a possible in a match, all Xs.
Can be tied, but never beaten.
Worked with another who , on occaision, would get high woman while winning overall at smallbore rifle matches. And her bag was ISU pistol !
And then there is Kim Rhode. Shotgunner par excellance.
And in years long gone, Plinky Topperwein, nuther top shotgunner.
Maby they are scarecer because of a smaller pool of junior women shooters coming up, always have been in the minority.
And probably tougher to get sponsorship. Kim's mom said she went back to work to keep Kim in ammo. She didn't get ammo sponsorship until she had shown potential to be the best in the world.
Unless there are bucks in the family, tis hard to break through. Training time, ammo, travel, equipment etc. Usually takes good stuff to show how good you are so you can get sponsorship. All too often, it takes sponsorship to get the good stuff so you can show how good you are.
Catch 22 for either sex, moreso for female.
Sam
Sunray
Member
Hi. "...I plan on doing something like..." I'd suggest you make a video of the next shoot you're at. Both genders and all ages enjoying their choice of sport. A 'family day' shoot would be ideal. Arrange it if you have to, but it'd show our sport the way it is. Men, women and kids doing the same thing on relatively equal terms.
Pax, I'd say that in combat shooting events upper body strength especially forearm and grip strength come into play. The women are competing with equal calibers so are dealing with equal recoil with less strength and body mass to counteract it. Just look at a pic of Jerry Barnhart gripping a gun, looks like a muscle is going to pop loose any minute now. This doesn't mean that somebody like Athena Lee won't beat the crap out of 90% of us anyways.
You would think that a steel challenge format would favor women being more equal, little movement and lower powered ammunition.
You would think that a steel challenge format would favor women being more equal, little movement and lower powered ammunition.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Maybe, but in general the top male USPSA shooters aren't exactly paragons of physical fitness. My guess would be that the reason you don't see women at the top in shooting sports as much is the same reason you don't see Estonians on the NBA All-Star team... they aren't in the shooting sports in the first place, at any level, in numbers comparable to men. You can't win if you don't play.
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