CombatArmsUSAF
Member
Man, I made some bad grammar mistakes, didn't I?
Friend against carrying
- Thread starter Gus Dddysgrl
- Start date
- Status
I've won this argument many times using the following logic:
"You shouldn't carry a gun, it will just be taken away from you, or end up hurting you or one of your kids."
"By your logic the police shouldn't have guns either. All they'll do is have them taken away from them, or hurt themselves or others."
"No, police need to have guns to protect the citizens and control criminals. They've been trained to use them to do so."
"I've been trained as well. The Second Amendment provides the right to bear arms, not the right to dial 911 and ask to be protected by other people bearing arms. Not to mention the fact that in the vast majority of 911 calls, police do little more than record what happened. Pushing 3 buttons on your phone does not make you bullet or rape-proof."
At this point, they'll probably walk away, or say something silly. One thing they won't do is intelligently counter your logic, because they can't. They can still insist they don't want a gun, but they can't argue against your logic for carrying one.
"You shouldn't carry a gun, it will just be taken away from you, or end up hurting you or one of your kids."
"By your logic the police shouldn't have guns either. All they'll do is have them taken away from them, or hurt themselves or others."
"No, police need to have guns to protect the citizens and control criminals. They've been trained to use them to do so."
"I've been trained as well. The Second Amendment provides the right to bear arms, not the right to dial 911 and ask to be protected by other people bearing arms. Not to mention the fact that in the vast majority of 911 calls, police do little more than record what happened. Pushing 3 buttons on your phone does not make you bullet or rape-proof."
At this point, they'll probably walk away, or say something silly. One thing they won't do is intelligently counter your logic, because they can't. They can still insist they don't want a gun, but they can't argue against your logic for carrying one.
Johnny_Yuma
Member
forget it
Your friend is really naive (your word). I believe that at your apparently logical level of functioning there is no way to reach her - like me trying to reason with my cat.
Remember, every moment wasted arguing with such a person is a moment you could have spent at the range enjoying yourself!
Johnny
Gus Dddysgrl said:I'm sure it's here somewhere.
So my question is how can I try and convince her that carrying a gun is good and safe? No matter what I said she countered with a weak arguement and still wasn't convinced. She said something like the bad guys will get them and do more harm than it would if you had it to protect yourself. (I did say that bad guys will still get guns.):banghead:
Your friend is really naive (your word). I believe that at your apparently logical level of functioning there is no way to reach her - like me trying to reason with my cat.
Remember, every moment wasted arguing with such a person is a moment you could have spent at the range enjoying yourself!
Johnny
Last edited:
Aguila Blanca
Member
Why waste your time? It's her life, and her two-year-old.Gus Dddysgrl said:
There's an old joke about trying to teach a pig to sing. I wish I could remember it, but it ends something like " ... never try to teach a pig to sing because it only frustrates you and annoys the pig." Not saying that your friend is a pig, but if you try to convince her that she is wrong you'll probably fail, and annoy her in the process.
carebear
Member
Until she is willing to give up her purposely chosen denial of the real nature of the world you probably won't see a change.
Right now she is living, in what is probably a continuation of her upbringing, in a "bubble" where "those kinds of things" don't happen to people like her. Her chosen naivite has been enabled by the men in her life.
To admit that anyone, including her, might actually be at risk means that she'd have to change her whole way of seeing and living life. Most people resist changing breakfast foods, you're asking her to admit evil into her life as a present reality, not merely an abstract that happens elsewhere to others. The consequences of that decision would spread into every aspect, she'd have to worry about a whole new raft of things that could happen to her, her child and her family. Her decisions and freedom of choice would be curtailed by considerations of what might happen. Her responsibilities of protection would increase.
That's a huge burden and most people, however irrational, probably sense it on an unconscious level and will fight it to the end.
Unfortunately, experience tells us that what it usually takes to force such a shift to a realistic view of our sometimes scary world is that world rudely imposing itself into their fantasy idyll.
scott5
Member
Against guns
You could give her 40 reasons to be against guns.
40 REASONS TO SUPPORT GUN CONTROL
1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops
need guns.
2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to
strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per
100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.
3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but
statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are
"just statistics."
4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went
into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent
crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.
5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a
shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of
fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.
6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.
7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but
if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.
8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a
smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.
9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no
defense --give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc.
Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).
10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice
about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on
heart surgery.
11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a
civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine,
a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for
firearms expertise.
12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National
Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.
13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal
land, using federally-owned weapons vehicles buildings and uniforms,
punishing trespassers under federal law, is a “state” militia.
14. These phrases; “right of the people peaceably to assemble,"
"right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations
herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others
retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are
reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer
to individuals,
but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the
state.
15. “The Constitution is strong and will never change.” But we
should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Amendments to that Constitution.
16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of
course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.
17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren’t
“military weapons”, but private citizens shouldn't have "assault
rifles,’ because they are military weapons.
18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting,
government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which
is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940?s, 1950?s
and 1960?s, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus
stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting,
no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there
were no school shootings.
19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids
handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run
a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.
20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use
them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.
21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the
typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only
has 20.
22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a womanwith a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers'
advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."
23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering
butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass
killings at gun shows.
25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a
majority of the population supported owning slaves.
26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be
a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."
27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against
guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.
28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be
questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of
Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really
protected by the Bill of Rights.
29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters,
computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare
hands.
30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain
parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends
other parts of the Constitution.
31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a
cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie
actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador
for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control
summit.
32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need
larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face
criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.
33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive
guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.
34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over
handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.
35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because
the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court
says the police are not responsible for their protection.
36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but
police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a
building filled with cops, need a gun.
37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large
numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.
38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft
preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government
pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.
39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for
defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on
their duty weapon.
40. Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the
wrong hands.” Guess what? You have the wrong hands.
You could give her 40 reasons to be against guns.
40 REASONS TO SUPPORT GUN CONTROL
1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops
need guns.
2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to
strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per
100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.
3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but
statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are
"just statistics."
4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went
into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent
crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.
5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a
shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of
fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.
6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.
7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but
if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.
8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a
smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.
9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no
defense --give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc.
Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).
10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice
about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on
heart surgery.
11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a
civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine,
a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for
firearms expertise.
12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National
Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.
13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal
land, using federally-owned weapons vehicles buildings and uniforms,
punishing trespassers under federal law, is a “state” militia.
14. These phrases; “right of the people peaceably to assemble,"
"right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations
herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others
retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are
reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer
to individuals,
but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the
state.
15. “The Constitution is strong and will never change.” But we
should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and
5th Amendments to that Constitution.
16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of
course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.
17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren’t
“military weapons”, but private citizens shouldn't have "assault
rifles,’ because they are military weapons.
18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting,
government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which
is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940?s, 1950?s
and 1960?s, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus
stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting,
no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there
were no school shootings.
19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids
handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run
a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.
20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use
them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.
21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the
typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only
has 20.
22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a womanwith a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers'
advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."
23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering
butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass
killings at gun shows.
25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a
majority of the population supported owning slaves.
26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be
a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."
27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against
guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.
28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be
questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of
Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really
protected by the Bill of Rights.
29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters,
computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare
hands.
30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain
parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends
other parts of the Constitution.
31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a
cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie
actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador
for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control
summit.
32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need
larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face
criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.
33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive
guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.
34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over
handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.
35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because
the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court
says the police are not responsible for their protection.
36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but
police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a
building filled with cops, need a gun.
37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large
numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.
38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft
preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government
pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.
39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for
defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on
their duty weapon.
40. Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the
wrong hands.” Guess what? You have the wrong hands.
(Score:+1, Insightful)
Good one -- worked for me. Just keep in mind that you may be at this *months* before you see results. First, remember to be gentle. Try too hard, and you'll overdo it easily.
Second, 40 Reasons for Gun Control is something you might want to leave lying about where you usually read.
Then, when she gives you her arguments, download and print out Gunfacts.Info. Use post-it flags on her arguments. Again, leave this with personal reading materials (coffee table?)
This may not work for everyone, but for those who're swayed by the slow, studied approach it works pretty well.
GDDYUP said:Hello fellow THR folks! I'm a newbie here so I figured I'd say "Hi!" before I threw out my thoughts on this first of my replies..
I like and +1 hso's approach. Don't try to change her mind on the issue. If you try to come right out and do that, chances are you'll fail miserably. Most of the people who feel the way your friend does reply soley on emotion and not fact or experience. The best thing to do is to try and educate her about firearms ownership, responsibility, and safety. Get your facts and persent them in a non-offending, non-overwhelming manner. Engage her in casual discussion about it and ask her real world questions. Don't try to change her mind. Just educating her may go a long way and at least get her to think about the world that surrounds her.
Good one -- worked for me. Just keep in mind that you may be at this *months* before you see results. First, remember to be gentle. Try too hard, and you'll overdo it easily.
Second, 40 Reasons for Gun Control is something you might want to leave lying about where you usually read.
Then, when she gives you her arguments, download and print out Gunfacts.Info. Use post-it flags on her arguments. Again, leave this with personal reading materials (coffee table?)
This may not work for everyone, but for those who're swayed by the slow, studied approach it works pretty well.
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