Getting a ton of questions about "Assault Shotguns"

[plumberroy]

I just a hair above your group number 2 I use strategically placed night lights for light and don't put a light on the gun (Remember this is home defense ) for the simple reason I know how I will react to a weapons light coming on inside my house!! buckshot off switch!!!! I am not military or police I don't have to clear an unknow building I would be shooting from behind a block wall into backlighted areas from dark areas I am going to know where you came in from the outside dog and where you are from the inside dog . Outside defending garden or chickens from preditors I have killed hundreds of fur bearers shooting a shotgun resting on my weak arm with a flash light.
Have I ever had a class no but I have several friends and family that are with the sheriffs department and I have been through there practice course a few times
The two things that will not on my H.D. shotgun pistol grip weather it is only a pistol grip or combined with a shoulder stock just does not work with the way I shoot a shotgun and rifle sights or optics especially anything that takes batteries. Shotgun is a short range weapon anything far enough away to need these is outside the effective range of a shotgun
I however do not think just because I don't like them means they are wrong I do think that if you can not take your H.D. gun out and bust a few birds on the trap range you might ought to rethink your setup.
Roy

 

[splithoof]

Girodin is on track 100%.
Schooling is one step on the way to finding out what works best for each individual. Everyone's needs are different. Equipment selection, tactics, and necessary risk/reward will drive those decisions. I use an 870 Marine, ghost ring sights, dedicated SureFire light, Choate stock w/grip, Side saddle, Wilson safety, and Wilderness sling. Some may call all this "crap", so be it. But it suits my purposes: large property with numerous buildings, no help for two to three hours (if at all), many doors, hallways, corners, open fields, and an occasional predator out to kill the livestock. In the distant foothills are numerous drug labs, paroled felons, and a few folks who have numerous warrants. I choose a 12 gauge 870 because I like it, schooled with it, shoot in events using it, and have it whenever up at the ranch. I do what works for me, you do what works for you.

 

[PabloJ]

Here are features that do NOT work: 'commando style' multiple attachment slings, any type of pistol grip, any type of complex adjustable length and or folding stock, long barrels, any type of shell carrier attached to the shotgun.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ You mean those things don't work for "you". I like pistol grips. If pistols grips on long-arms are bad in combat situations then why are our soldiers' ARs equipped with them? RE the other items you mentioned: I have none of them except you might consider my 20" barrel too long. I don't because it works for "me" on my 12ga... and I can extend the magazine to hold up to 8 rds. The other items you mentioned I don't feel comfortable with either but this is just my preference.

EDIT: Had I lots of money I'd buy a Saiga-12 with spare extended magazines. Heck, I'd have a S-12 in every room of the house. Hah!!

 

[Flintknapper]

Splithoof wrote:

Girodin is on track 100%.
Schooling is one step on the way to finding out what works best for each individual. Everyone's needs are different. Equipment selection, tactics, and necessary risk/reward will drive those decisions. I use an 870 Marine, ghost ring sights, dedicated SureFire light, Choate stock w/grip, Side saddle, Wilson safety, and Wilderness sling. Some may call all this "crap", so be it. But it suits my purposes: large property with numerous buildings, no help for two to three hours (if at all), many doors, hallways, corners, open fields, and an occasional predator out to kill the livestock.

^^^^^^^^ Agree!

My situation/setting is very similar (I live full time on a Ranch), hence my NEEDS (not do-dads) are different from that of others who might consider my shotgun choice 'Tacti-fool'.

I imagine some would find criticism for the ammo I use as well.

 

[plumberroy]

Splithoof wrote:



^^^^^^^^ Agree!

My situation/setting is very similar (I live full time on a Ranch), hence my NEEDS (not do-dads) are different from that of others who might consider my shotgun choice 'Tacti-fool'.

I imagine some would find criticism for the ammo I use as well.

For ranch work (which I have done) My ammo selection would be a little different but that is just me. Only thing I don't get is the breecher I can see no application for it for non military or non L.E. use.
I would swap out the short #00 for 2 3/4" #4 buck for yotes and bobcats, and the 3" buck for 1 1/4 oz of #4 or 5 shot for smaller nisance animals
roaming around a ranch is one aplication tha I would mount a light on a gun
Roy

 

[Girodin]

any type of pistol grip, any type of complex adjustable length and or folding stock, long barrels, any type of shell carrier attached to the shotgun.

This is an interesting assertion. I think it would make for more valuable discussion if you fleshed out your argument a little and explained why you believe that. It is interesting that the Benelli M4 carries a number of those features you mention. Although I guess one would say its adjustable stock is not particularly complex.

In terms of attaching ammo to the shotgun. Side saddles are nearly ubiquitous. Some work better than others. On a weapon that is generally a limited capacity weapon, as well as a grab and go type of weapon, having more ammunition on the weapon makes sense. Although perhaps not as much of a consideration for a HD gun versus a broader use fighting shotgun, if one wants to maximize the versatility of the shotgun one also needs to have slugs on board. Sidesaddles are like anything else and some work better than others. I don't know that I would categorically say they "don't work" though. Just the opposite, I have them on my defensive shotguns. I don't know that one will need more than 5-8 rounds but personally I'd rather not learn that I did at a moment when I have no more ammo. I like the velcro style side saddles for my uses.

 

[splithoof]

Pablo, say what you will. The pistol grips on all my 870 shotguns suit me very well. The grip allows me to hold the weapon much better for opening doors, reloading, and one-handed operation, all of which I spend considerable time practicing. The external ammunition carrier allows me to recharge the weapon as I go, and select different types (slug vs buck) if the need arises. The sling on this particular example lets me make an easy transition to my sidearm.

 

[Mike1234567]

pablo, say what you will. The pistol grips on all my 870 shotguns suit me very well. The grip allows me to hold the weapon much better for opening doors, reloading, and one-handed operation, all of which i spend considerable time practicing. The external ammunition carrier allows me to recharge the weapon as i go, and select different types (slug vs buck) if the need arises. The sling on this particular example lets me make an easy transition to my sidearm.

bingo!!

 

[bannockburn]

The only thing added on to my Mossberg Model 500 is a buttstock shell holder. A nice clean simple set-up for over 25 years now and that's the way I like it.

 

[Flintknapper]

For ranch work (which I have done) My ammo selection would be a little different but that is just me. Only thing I don't get is the breecher I can see no application for it for non military or non L.E. use.

And I can see no downside to it. It doesn't add significant weight or length to the barrel (only 18.5" to begin with), the breaching feature gets you a barrel about 5/32" thick which is a good thing, when a shotgun will ride on a tractor and in a farm truck.

Will I ever use the breaching feature on a door? Not likely, but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing to have (for everyone). In the environment this shotgun will live in (when outside the house) it is less likely to get the muzzle plugged and I pretty much don't have to worry about denting the barrel either.

If you require that I have a specific use for it (for it to be justified) then I will use it this weekend for a cattle prod.

Seriously, if someone can point out a legitimate downside to it, I will cut off as much of it as is legal.

 

[plumberroy]

And I can see no downside to it. It doesn't add significant weight or length to the barrel (only 18.5" to begin with), the breaching feature gets you a barrel about 5/32" thick which is a good thing, when a shotgun will ride on a tractor and in a farm truck.

Will I ever use the breaching feature on a door? Not likely, but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing to have (for everyone). In the environment this shotgun will live in (when outside the house) it is less likely to get the muzzle plugged and I pretty much don't have to worry about denting the barrel either.

If you require that I have a specific use for it (for it to be justified) then I will use it this weekend for a cattle prod.

Seriously, if someone can point out a legitimate downside to it, I will cut off as much of it as is legal.

It is your gun I just wondered why? Only downside i could see for ranch work I would want some choke and most of those I have seen are cylinder bore. If it is part of the barrel I wouldn't cut it I like the cattle prod idea I have had cattle take great offence to me giving the a sulfa tablet and a shot of tylan 200 The gun I carried the most was a ruger #1 in 25-06 so I could smoke coyotes that was 30+ years ago
Roy
P.S. there are times I wish I was back working on a ranch times were simpler then

 

[romulus]

Those 2 and a quarter inch shell are schweett...made in Italy it seems, in Savoy blue...how do they perform? What are they tailored for? Does it increase mag capacity?

 

[Flintknapper]

Those 2 and a quarter inch shell are schweett...made in Italy it seems, in Savoy blue..

Yes

.how do they perform?

They pattern well enough (cylinder bore) out to 20 yds. I do not (yet) have any real world experience (with this round) on pests/varmints.

What are they tailored for?

Short range Home Defense and Police Work where low recoil and slightly reduced velocity might be wanted.

Does it increase mag capacity?

Not unless you have a fairly long extended magazine and currently use 3" shotshells. In my case...I gain only one (two if I want to really cram them together) over the 2-3/4" shotshells I normally keep in it.

But someone using a long extended magazine could conceivably gain 3 (or more).

 

[Flintknapper]

Plumberroy wrote:

Only downside i could see for ranch work I would want some choke and most of those I have seen are cylinder bore.

Good point.

 

[romulus]

Thanks, Flintknapper...I found an online supplier, might give them a shot

 

[BSA1]

I'm struggling with the fact a shotgun doesn't need sights.

 

[romulus]

really? Never heard that

 

[blarby]

"Capacity in the magazine" = Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it

While true in some sense, if you cant get it done in an HD situation with 5+1, is 8+1 really gonna make up for it ?

Mighty long and heavy, that tube.

I think if you really need more than 6, then you need more practice, or to go the AR route.

But thats just me.

 

[romulus]

You definitely need the practice. But additional rounds at the ready can't hurt, and just might help.

 

[Mike1234567]

Flintknapper... I wonder if those 2.25" shells will cycle through my TriStar Raptor A-Tac. Hmm...

 

[Flintknapper]

^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't know Mike, they cycle great through the Mossy. They are just long enough to work reliably in MY shotgun.

I tried Aguila...1-3/4" mini's and they would hang up sometimes, but these work fine.

My Mossy has a sort of skeletonized shell elevator...so really short shells can "partially" fall through, causing a jam. Also, some mini shells (in some shotguns) do not eject reliably, but I've had no such problem with these.

They are inexpensive, so it wouldn't cost you much to find out.

They produce less recoil than 2-3/4" pr 3" buckshot loads, but I think they will still cycle in your semi-auto.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Inexpensive to try... good point.

 

[jojo200517]

To address the original post, i'm not too knowledgeable about some of these newer imported "HD" shotguns the big box stores are carrying. Some of them are more or less a clone of common domestic designs, some not so much. I stick with what has worked for me if asked for a recomendation. If they are on a real tight budget the maverick gets the nod, if they can spare a little more coin I say move up to the 500 or 590. If they are set on the Remingtons I don't have an issue with the 870's either. I don't have an issues with beretta, benelli or any of the other major manufactues either so if thats what they can afford and are willing to put it thru the paces I'd say go for it I figure something I may have to trust my life to it won't hurt to spend a few more bucks to not get a chineese knock off tho.

No matter what I recommend they shoot the hell out of it before they even consider loading it for defensive use.

I do suspect that some of these people are maybe aiming for more of a "fighting shotgun" than just "HD" but it's easier to sell the idea of the spending the money to the significant other if they call it a "home defense shotgun"

As far as me at a bare minimum my "HD" shotgun has to have a light on it and a stock of some type that give a good shoulder position and cheek weld. Positive target identification is imporant, as is a shotgun that fits the shooter. Past that to me it starts to venture into the realm of fighting shotgun.

However I like spare ammo on the weapon, shell holder on stock receiver or both. Is it necessary for most situations, probably not. If I ever have to face down a mob and live to tell the tell i'll make sure to not complain about having too much ammo. I'm ok with plain jane stock but I prefer my recoil reducing blackhawk knox stock because I prefer full power loads. It adds a full adjustable stock with a pistol grip which seems to give more control. As far as sights, the rifle sights came on my 590a1spx so it's what I'm kinda stuck with. The center of the light seems to be about center of aim on the weapon so at closer ranges where the light is still fairly focused in a center of mass hit shouldn't be much issue.

Maybe I fall into the tacti-fool crowd but I have never put anything on my weapon that I didn't try and practice with, realize I disliked and not immedately remove.

Pics from when I first got it and no I don't leave the bayonet on it for HD.
http://imageshack.com/a/img248/7924/20130513233908.jpg

 

[BigBL87]

I'm pretty new to the idea of a shotgun for home defense (waiting for my FOID to get one but have shot trap) and while I understand the appeal of the tacticool look, personally its not my thing. About as far as I plan on going is adding a picatinny rail to the receiver to mount a red dot for slugs and maybe a flashlight for HD situations. To be fair though, mine is also going to double as an informal clay shooter so it'd be hard to use for that if it was tacticooled out.