Getting into 45.70

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rabid wombat

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
1,854
Location
TX
I have a Marlin Guide Gun, that I have never done anything with. My understanding is factory ammo is not very much fun out of it. For me, it will be nothing more than a toy, or maybe a pig gun. All that said, I did pick up some dies and brass. I have been thinking lead, but more likely coated lead. When I had the action slicked, I had the bore slugged. The slug measures 0.457.

What are your thoughts on coated hard cast (21 brinnell) 405 gr 0.458 bullets? Do you have a light pet load (usual caveats, and I will compare to published loads) in the 1000-1200 fps range? Subsonic is OK. Anything particular to straight wall rifle cases (I do load straight wall pistol a lot)?

As always, thanks for the information!

https://www.kingshooters.com/bullet...rain-round-nose-flat-point-sized-458-30145663
 
There were a couple threads on this, maybe 6-9 months ago. My conclusion was that Alliant 2400 works well enough for plinking. Can't remember what charge I used, but my load workups only went far enough to get halfway decent groups at 25 yards.

You might take a look for those older threads.
 
Imr4198 for full power, trailboss for light loads. Missouri bullet for coated 405 grain coated bullets. That's all you need, keep it simple, it's an old cartridge and doesn't need high velocity to knock big holes through things. A case full of trail boss will give about 1000 fps or maybe a little less, recoil is light with that load and brass lasts virtually forever.
I've tried some other powders but for 45-70 I only use those 2, haven't needed anything else.
 
I have shot a bunch of 405 grain cast with 38 grains of 3031 which is listed as light but in my Rossi Rio Grande is right snappy.
 
IMR4198 x4, here, too. You can substitute AA5744 for almost identical ballistics, IMHO, IMR4198 is more versatile for other cartridges... this with cast bullets. 30grn IMR4198 and a coated 385grn bullet right at 1400fps, and a plain 405grn FP at 1270fps.

If I were to load hunting cartridges, with jacketed bullets, I would go to IMR3031, however. 45grn IMR3031 launches a 350grn JHP to about 1600fps... and, yes, it lets you know it's on the way... but for good reason. I would be perfectly happy launching a 350grn cast FP bullet, too... but I would probably back down to the 40grn IMR3031 range, or just use IMR4198.

I have used 2400 for lighter loads... 19grn 2400 and that same 385grn coated bullet gives me 1225fps and fair accuracy.

I have also loaded 47grn IMR's 3031, 4895, and 4064, with a 405grn cast bullet... and I pulled almost all of them, the recoil (in my 1895 Cowboy LTD V) was too much, and unnecessary.

Unique is thrown out there as a good light load... 15grn Unique under a 405grn cast gives me right at 1200fps, and is as accurate as the 2400 loads mentioned above. I am not a big fan of that small of a charge of Unique in that big .45-70 case... if you wanted to try that, I recommend a case filler... a small tuft of Dacron on top of the charge prior to seating the bullet.
 
About time you got your excellent rifle out for some fun. Got my Guide gun in 2003. Has the ported barrel. I was deployed for Iraqi freedom and all I could think of to spend my combat pay on was a Guide Gun. Must have read the gun reviews a kazillion times. Got it September of that year. Got a deer first day of hunting season that year.

I know it will shoot some pretty hefty bullets. I shoot a lot of lead in the 300 grain range. For copper Remington hollow points same weight. I have loaded with unique, 5744, Trail boss, and IMR4895. I load them down and load them hot. Find that sighted in, point of aim goes up or down and never left or right. With hotter loads doing as expected. My brother ordered 1000 lead 300 trainers in .458 for our dad for his 45 Colt. Mine now. Work great in the Marlin.

Mods, removed the stupid safety and put a 4x shotgun scope on top. Also a thump screw to replace the screw for the lever and a stainless follower. As for quality, no issues. People love to hate on Remington Marlins and maybe rightly so. The wood to metal finish on my 1984 purchased in 2008 has better fit and finish than my Guide. And my Guide isn’t too bad.
 
I think you have a fantastic gun. I also agree with Mr. Havey that 21 BHN is much too hard for the application and probably will lead badly. I personally would load with 16-1 lead-tin for about 11 BHN.
 
I use 5744, my sharps likes it, but if you want to soften the blow try black powder, its more of a push on the shoulder. The powder coating is great I would recommend it. Ordered a bunch of bullets from Missouri Bullet company before the pandemic, and now that Bratt died (God rest his soul) if the operation will continue the powder coated bullets are top shelf.
 
For the Missouri Bullet Company 405 gr. coated cast bullet (18BHN), I use 30.0 gr. of H4198 (trapdoor level load). For flatter trajectory and higher velocity loads, I use Hornady 300 gr. JHP over 45.0 grains of H4198 or the Hornady 350 gr. interlock flat point bullet over 44.0 grains of H4198. I started reloading for .45-70 using H4198 and it has worked well so I have not tried any other powders.
 
It is a great classic round! For some nice reading check out "45yrs with the 45-70" book, not technical but informative and an enjoyable read.

I wouldn't go hard with the lead either. Nice to have mild plinking loads and then ones with a bit more spice for game. I'm looking for a Ruger #1 so I can get really foolish with the cartridge (yes, I have issues and lack good judgement at times :)
 
I use H4198 around 52 grains and a Barnes Original 300 grain bullet out of my JM Marlin 1895 moving around 2400 fps and deer are DRT. Not fun to bench but it will print .750 MOA. Amazing rifle that will take anything in NA.
 
I cast and powder coat my own 405 grain bullets, sometimes I use Alox. They are not hard. With Alox I get a very small amount of leading in the last 6 inches of barrel (Marlin Guide Gun). I think swabbing the bore with grease or alox would eliminate it.
For light loads I use Unique of IMR4198. Heavier loads I have used a little of everything in the cupboard. I generally stay with trap door loads. A LimbSavor recoil pad makes the gun far more pleasant to shoot, even with light loads.
 
Last edited:
For the low loads/fast powders (5744/Unique, etc) the OP is looking at, Large Pistol primers
are not only OK, but even sometimes better performers.

When you're an almost 150-year old Weapon of War... you're not picky anymore.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

peterk1234
  • Locked
imr 3031 load data for 45-70
2
Replies
36
Views
12K
AJC1
AJC1
JCSC
  • Locked
Slugged bore results.
Replies
12
Views
513
JCSC
JCSC
AJC1
  • Locked
Effects of powdercoat on bullet hardness
2
Replies
30
Views
4K
murf
murf
R
  • Locked
lead bullet accuracy
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
jaysouth
J
EricBu
  • Locked
Let's talk about 45-70 Trapdoors!
2
Replies
37
Views
1K
GeoDudeFlorida
GeoDudeFlorida
Back
Top