SureLok
Member
Has anyone run into this? About 6-8 out of a 100 won’t seat all the way down. This is SPP. They shoot fine for the ones that seat correctly. I have used two different priming systems. It seems a bit excessive.
Ginex primers seating high
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Cheesemaker
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Same brass?
LiveLife
Member
I ran into similar issue with other metric sized primers (Wolf, Tula, PMC, Fiocchi), particularly Fiocchi SP primers bought during the "Great Shortage" of 2013.
For most mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times with looser primer pockets, they seated fine slightly below flush (I aim for .004" below flush ... Check the US Army AMU on primer seating link) to pre-load the anvil tip against the priming compound. But with once-fired and particularly 9mm brass with tighter primer pockets (S&B, RWS, etc.), they were "no go" and I could not even seat them flush and they stuck up.
So I started to set aside S&B/RWS headstamp cases to be primed with smaller diameter "domestic" brand primers or Magtech SP primers (These have primed very well for me on par with Winchester SP ... Maybe Brazil being on "America" continent even though they are on metric system?
).So check the headstamp of brass that Ginex primers won't seat flush/below flush and if they are same headstamp, you may need to do some sorting.
So what are these slightly larger metric primers good for? They are good for mixed range brass that's been reloaded/reloaded several times and extending the life of brass with looser primer pockets.
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higgite
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Details?
Did the high primers fire on first strike? Second strike? Not even after how many strikes?
Ginex makes two variations that I’ve heard of…. bare brass cup and nickel plated cup. Which did you use?
What brass did you use?
What did you use to seat the primers?
When you say they won’t seat all the way down, did you try seating the high ones a second time with the same or a different tool?
FWIW, I use CCI pistol primers. Sometimes they don’t seat quite flush but they still all go bang. At first I fretted over it, but I decided since they all go bang except maybe 1 out of 500, mission accomplished. Caveat… I don’t shoot competitively nor carry reloads, so if a “click” does happen at the range, I just pull the trigger again. ymmv
Did the high primers fire on first strike? Second strike? Not even after how many strikes?
Ginex makes two variations that I’ve heard of…. bare brass cup and nickel plated cup. Which did you use?
What brass did you use?
What did you use to seat the primers?
When you say they won’t seat all the way down, did you try seating the high ones a second time with the same or a different tool?
FWIW, I use CCI pistol primers. Sometimes they don’t seat quite flush but they still all go bang. At first I fretted over it, but I decided since they all go bang except maybe 1 out of 500, mission accomplished. Caveat… I don’t shoot competitively nor carry reloads, so if a “click” does happen at the range, I just pull the trigger again. ymmv
SureLok
Member
Yes RP brass
SureLok
Member
I haven’t fired them, I’m not sure what to do with them. I’m using the brass cup. All RP brass. Using a T7 to seat. I have tried reseating but with about 25% success.
Would they be safe to load and shoot? Or try to deprime and save the brass, or discard them and move on?
SureLok
Member
I don’t have a seating adjustment that I am aware of.
nettlle
Contributing Member
Why would there be a metric primer?I ran into similar issue with other metric sized primers (Wolf, Tula, PMC, Fiocchi), particularly Fiocchi SP primers bought during the "Great Shortage" of 2013.
For most mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times with looser primer pockets, they seated fine slightly below flush (I aim for .004" below flush ... Check the US Army AMU on primer seating link) to pre-load the anvil tip against the priming compound. But with once-fired and particularly 9mm brass with tighter primer pockets (S&B, RWS, etc.), they were "no go" and I could not even seat them flush and they stuck up.
So I started to set aside S&B/RWS headstamp cases to be primed with smaller diameter "domestic" brand primers or Magtech SP primers (These have primed very well for me on par with Winchester SP ... Maybe Brazil being on "America" continent even though they are on metric system?
So check the headstamp of brass that Ginex primers won't seat flush/below flush and if they are same headstamp, you may need to do some sorting.
So what are these slightly larger metric primers good for? They are good for mixed range brass that's been reloaded/reloaded several times and extending the life of brass with looser primer pockets.
deadeye dick
Member
Had the same problem with 045 Acp and Wolf primers. bought a primer pocket uniformer and that solved the problem.
Most issues I read about seating the Genix SPP seem to be with the brass cup versions. I'm in my second thousand nickle cup Genix priming 9mm cases and haven't experience issues with high primers.
Disclaimer: I do sort my cases by headstamp and don't load in R-P cases...I sort them out along with Ammoland, IMT, FM, and S&B
243winxb
Member
Yes.
Get a RCBS Ram Prime Unit for your press.
LiveLife
Member
Countries outside of US likely use machining tools calibrated to metric standards in cm/mm whereas US manufacturers use machine tools calibrated to thousandths of inch.
Reported primers being harder to seat over the decades have been "metric" primers in origin of Russia (Wolf, Tula, Murom), Eastern European countries (S&B, Ginex), South Korea/Russia (PMC) and in recent years, Italy (Fiocchi) with pending report of Aguila SP (Mexico) and Servicios & Aventuras (Argentina) primers.
Only exception I have experienced were Magtech primers made in Brazil which I didn't experience any hand/bench priming issues and actually bench primed better than CCI/Winchester primers on several Pro 1000s.
And as already posted, benefit of these "metric" primers is while they may be harder to seat, they can extend the life of brass that have looser primer pockets.
kennedy
Member
so far so good with me, I use a lee hand primer so I can feel when its seated, loading into winchester .40, and lake city 223, no duds
hoardingthemanual
Member
I'm new to handloading. The first 90/100 rounds I assembled were with Unis Ginex spp. Some priming attempts weren't successful (10/100), but I think it was my fault. Priming cases is an art, in my opinion, and I'm still learning the "feel."
LiveLife
Member
Welcome to THR and the wonderful world of reloading/handloading.
Yes.
As mentioned in post #14, metric sized Ginex primers made in Boznia will likely require more effort to seat them fully (With metric sized Italian made Fiocchi primers, I was able to barely seat them just to flush in some cases). They will be easier to seat fully in cases reloaded several times with slightly enlarged primer pockets but will be tighter in newer/once-fired brass, particularly with headstamp that's been known to have tighter primer pockets like 9mm S&B, RWS, etc.
So check the headstamp of cases you are having issues with and if they are same, you may need to sort those headstamp cases out until you have chance to buy domestic brand primers like CCI/Winchster/Remington/Federal. If headstamp of cases you are having issues with is random, then you may not be seating them hard/deep enough.
Seating primers involve "feeling" two levels of resistance where first is primer cup being pushed down to the bottom of primer pocket and second is anvil being pushed up inside the cup to set tip against the priming compound which properly "pre-loads" the primer to set off reliably. As to seating primers properly, for me that's slightly below flush around .004" and explained in detail here - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12417636
And do not worry about seating them hard/deep as I have tested domestic and foreign metric primers to .004" below flush down to .008" below flush where I started to flatten the primer cup and they all reliably ignited - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11386382
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Lennyjoe
Member
Are you using a primer pocket uniformer? If not, might help.
peeplwtchr
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- Sep 20, 2019
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- 1,615
This.
I've loaded a few thousand of the brass Ginex in all the 9mm headstamps, including RP. I had the same issue at first, in about 10% of the rounds. You can beat it using technique. As the primer first touches the cup, use lighter than gentle pressure to just get the primer aligned with the cup, then strong firm seating pressure, more then with softer primers. It doesn't really take longer, just a kiss, then stronger pull on the handle than you would any other primers. You won't crush them. I actually like them because I get less wasted, crushed primers.
Winchester are so soft they drive me crazy.
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hoardingthemanual
Member
Seating primers involve "feeling" two levels of resistance where first is primer cup being pushed down to the bottom of primer pocket and second is anvil being pushed up inside the cup to set tip against the priming compound which properly "pre-loads" the primer to set off reliably. As to seating primers properly, for me that's slightly below flush around .004" and explained in detail here - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12417636
And do not worry about seating them hard/deep as I have tested domestic and foreign metric primers to .004" below flush down to .008" below flush where I started to flatten the primer cup and they all reliably ignited - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11386382
Thanks for the reply, LiveLife. It's very helpful.
Firstly, I didn't know about the two resistances while seating the primer. I think this is what has caused me to backoff the seating force too soon.
Secondly, I have been worried that some of my rounds have excessively seated primers. In your picture, they resemble the primer cup with flattened edges. I thought they were "overly sensitive" primers but hearing of your safe handling of similar rounds is good news. Lyman's 51st edition reloading manual says: "...excessively deep primer seating, also can cause unwanted problems. Excessive stressing of the primer pellet can cause the primer to become overly sensitive. This might lead to ignition as a result of roughly handling the loaded ammo."
Due to that worry, my most recent batch of primed cases have all the primers sit flush with the case head.
LiveLife
Member
I would not worry and try to seat primers slightly below flush. My QC check is to load finished rounds upside down on 50 round ammo trays factory rounds come in and run my finger tip over to identify any high primers, which could result in misfire.
BTW, here's US Army AMU's take on primer seating depth - http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/primer-seating-depth-uniformity-and-accuracy/
"Here at the USAMU, we ensure our rifle primers generally run -0.003″ to -0.005″ below the case head. Maximum primer depth is -0.006″ and minimum is -0.002″."
Whenever I had questionable primer seating, I got out my ram prime and primed on my old single stage. In my experience the most positive seating method available, even Lyman agrees. On some primers (Winchester SP) I "sensitize" them with a little extra force when they have bottomed out (also called "crush"). Only "different" primers I have tried are Wolf. I haven't measured "below flush" in probably 35 years and cannot remember a FTF that was my fault...
hoardingthemanual
Member
Does this mean you would prime a case, then attempt to reseat the primer? I'm interested in your answer because I have put away a few cases due to the primer sitting proud, and if I can safely reseat them deeper, then I would be keen to do it. The manuals say not to deprime a live primer, but I haven't read anything about attempting to reseat a primer.
LiveLife
Member
I have, but do it slowly. (Primer compound requires impact force with tip of anvil and cup applying pressure to detonate) Slow reseating of primer won't apply such "impact" force (Which BTW is the force we use to initially seat the primer, right?
).If you are concerned about detonating primer during reseating, deprime the primer and reprime the brass with the deprimed primer.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11386382
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