Glock KABOOMS-or DANG IT ANYWAY!

[Greybeard]

Quote: "But then again, Glocks are the only Kb stories I have heard...but I havent heard all that many."

If more time, I could tell a couple of Kb stories of incidents in the past few years around our little range. Not with Glocks, but HKs, one fairly new, one rather old. Bottom line with both though: RELOADED ammo.

First one was with a super-competitive cop's personally-loaded "hot" stuff (.40 or .45?) while in the hand of a "friend". Second was a CHL student who had paid a local gun store $7 a box for 9mm reloads to go in his $1,200 gun ...

 

[Tamara]

jc2,

Tamara -

Federal 155-grain Hi-Shok JHP

Not reloaded

Not lead

Not cheap practice ammo--

I'm pretty sure that I didn't imply that it was any of that. All I asked Handy is "What brand?", since I am aware of some detonations of .40 cal Speer factory JHP's in the region.

Funny, but the notice re: Speer .40 came from one of the major outside sales reps of what may be the biggest LE distributor in the SE. Obviously, I've sold all my SIGs and stopped using Speer ammunition since.

(Or maybe I just held off until I found out a lot number. Whichever.)

 

[Handy]

Tamara,

Blaming the ammo always makes more sense when there is no historical reason to think the gun was to blame.


I don't think a Sig product has been responsible for coining any new terms for a failure.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

Blaming the ammo always makes more sense when there is no historical reason to think the gun was to blame.

Seeing as how it's the ammo that actually contains the explosives, that would seem to be Occam's Razor to me.

I'm looking, for example, at that G21 picture on the preceding page.

Experience tells me that that round would have been un-fun to fire in any .45 ACP semi-auto pistol. At best, you would have wound up with the contents of the magazine all over the range floor. With the violence it seemed to let go with, I think you'd have been picking splinters of 1911 or SIG P220 grips out of your hand.

Maybe there's a magical force field in a Glock chamber that lends extra power to the powder charge, but I doubt it.

 

[Handy]

Ah, from your rhetoric, it would be safe to assume you're firmly in the "no such thing as a special glock problem/KaBooms don't exist" camp.

Okay.

 

[Sarge111]

At the risk of stating the obvious...

has anybody else noticed that it seems impossible to have an objective discussion on Glock blowups? I wouldn't even post to these things but unfortunately, I know first-hand of some of these incidents that absolutely did NOT involve reloads, or poorly-maintained weapons. I also know of a ton more of these occurrences second hand, courtesy of the NCIC/NLETS network.

Trust me, folks- these folks have got better things to do than sit around the donut shop and make up stories about Glocks exploding. This is an officer safety issue. The issuing agency's credibility demands that they get the facts straight. There's no such thing as an unconfirmed source for one of these messages. They come from law enforcement agencies, only. Joe Revoked can't jump on NCIC and post a 'puter message that goes out to 'all agencies', because he's mad at Glock.

If this wasn't really, REALLY happening, the TTY's wouldn't be going out over the system. They have been going out over that system for years.

But there I go again- clouding the issue with logic.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

Ah, from your rhetoric, it would be safe to assume you're firmly in the "no such thing as a special glock problem/KaBooms don't exist" camp.

You know what they say about "assuming".

Do I think it's the fault of the ammunition? Heck yes, I do: no gun has ever "kaboomed" while dry-firing.

Do I think that the same defective round may have generated a less spectacular event in another gun? Depends on the caliber and the round: for instance, I think that a round which may peel off a Glock 22 chamber hood may only blow a SIG P-229's mag onto the floor. In the case of the G21 on the previous page, the fact that the slide/barrel assembly is intact while the frame is shattered seems to indicate that the case suffered a failure, and a violent one at that, at the 6 o'clock position. Given that a SAAMI-spec .45 ACP load operates at somewhat less pressure than your average child's party balloon, one would deduce that that particular round was at something greater than SAAMI specs. Therefore it is reasonable to speculate that situations like that are why some 1911 grip makers add metal backing plates to their wooden or rubber grips.

You go on assuming, though...

 

[fastbolt]

But there I go again- clouding the issue with logic.

ain't it the truth? ...

I shot my first SA pistol when I was about 4-5 years old, a Llama .380, if I remember correctly ... might've been a .32, if they made such a thing ... and started shooting other larger pistols & revolvers as I was able to hold them up. I've held a 1911 that experienced a ruptured chamber, although the only outward symptom was the pistol's slide failing to cycle properly.

I know folks have destroyed metal framed handguns with improperly reloaded ammunition ... and damaged or otherwise faulty factory ammunition ... but it's been a rare thing to be present when it's occurred, or handle one right after it happened. Seemingly occuring seldom enough that it's been a noteworthy event ... Mostly the pistol or revolver wasn't damaged, at least not catastrophically.

And that's been over the last 45+ years since I actually started shooting ...

I've personally held 2 polymer framed pistols ... a 9mm & a .45 ACP ... that experienced catastrophic failures ... in less than 2 years ... and have a family member that experienced a catastrophic failure with a G22.

More polymer framed pistols on the market ... more reported failures ...

The question is, are some makes & models of these polymer framed pistols apparently more likely ... based upon frequent user reports, and for whatever reasons ... to experience such a failure, or not?

It's starting to seem as if it's becoming a bit harder to find an L/E armorer that DOESN'T know of such a failure in some polymer framed pistols, than say, 10 years ago ...

If this wasn't really, REALLY happening, the TTY's wouldn't be going out over the system. They have been going out over that system for years.

uh, huh ...

 

[Preacherman]

I've had a Glock kB! in the firing lane next to me - a G22 firing American Eagle FMJ. Ghastly ammo. in its early incarnations, as any search about it will reveal... On the other hand, I'm up to ten Glocks of my own now, in four calibers, and have never had any problems with them that were not ammo-related (in something over 30,000 rounds through Glocks, two failures - one dud primer and one case with no hole drilled between primer pocket and powder).

I am employed by a Federal LE agency, and last year I called Glock to ask them about the whole kB! story (yes, I've seen all the reports too, and since I bet my life on a Glock almost every day, I was concerned). I got to speak to the manager of the gunsmithing/warranty repair department. He was very open and forthcoming about the problems. To summarize what he said:

1. Yes, Glocks do have less supported chambers than some other weapons, but not so far as to be out-of-spec. for the caliber/cartridge concerned. This is one of the reasons why Glocks are so darn reliable: if tolerances are too tight, chambering problems can ensue.

2. As with any firearm, it's very important to keep the chamber and barrel CLEAN. With polygonal rifling, this is particularly important, as any buildup of debris ahead of the chamber can drastically increase pressures, particularly with rounds such as the .40 S&W and 357 SIG.

3. Glock specifically recommends the use of JACKETED ammunition only. The manager stated baldly that given a clean weapon, he has never heard of a kB! with jacketed ammo. However, some ammo. (particularly cheaper FMJ) is plated, rather than jacketed (i.e. there is a thin copper "wash" applied to a lead bullet, so that it looks jacketed, but isn't). This stuff can "lead up" a barrel just like ordinary lead bullets do - and that's a no-no in polygonal rifling. He also stated that in the cases of kB!'s with jacketed ammo, he had always found that the chamber and/or barrel had not been meticulously cleaned, which had given rise to the problem. (Having seen how LE's in my agency often neglect the cleaning of their weapons, I'm not really surprised to hear this... )

I would like to add, from personal experience, that in the .40 S&W cartridge in particular, bullet set-back is likely to occur, and this can push pressures to very dangerous levels indeed. With almost all brands of premium ammo., if you repeatedly chamber and eject the same round, it's not unlikely that the bullet will be pushed back into the case just a little bit. If you do this 10 or 20 times, and check with a micrometer, it's readily detectable. In high-pressure rounds, this can be a very serious danger, but it's not caused by the gun - it just happens if you don't change carry loads on a regular basis. I've now got to the point where once I've chambered a round three times, it gets taken out of my carry magazines and put aside for practice use. In this way, I can be pretty sure that bullet set-back, and the drastically increased pressures it causes, won't affect me.

I bought several Jarvis match barrels for my Glocks, and found that they did improve accuracy, and allowed the use of lead reloads: but their tighter tolerances meant that misfeeds were now a problem sometimes, and I had to have a throat-and-ramp job done on them before I was satisfied with their reliability for defensive use. I have Glocks with factory barrels, and Glocks with Jarvis barrels, and feel confident with both.

I've also seen kB!'s with several other kinds of firearms, including 1911's, .44 and .357 Magnum revolvers, CZ's, etc. I have never blamed the weapon for these, but rather the ammunition and/or lax cleaning and maintenance procedures. I see no reason to suspect any other cause in the Glock kB!'s.

I guess, in the end, you pays your money and you makes your choioce...

 

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

Are you in fact blaming the frame material? How would the frame fail to contain pressure, or affect the action unlocking early?


Tamara,

Your usual fancy footwork. I'll rephrace my tongue in cheek statement so you can't dance around it:

DO YOU THINK THAT GLOCK PISTOLS ARE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE CAUTASTROPIC CASE HEAD FAILURES THEN OTHER WEAPONS OF THE SAME CALIBER ?

[ ] yes
[ ] no

 

[jc2]

Tamara -

A Sheriff's Office in TN blew-up three G22s with 155-grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP ammunition injuring three deputies.

Would the same thing had happened if they were issued Sig P229s, S&W 4006s or Browning Hi-Powers (all weapons designed for the .40 S&W) instead of Glocks? Probably not!

Preacherman -

2. As with any firearm, it's very important to keep the chamber and barrel CLEAN. With polygonal rifling, this is particularly important, as any buildup of debris ahead of the chamber can drastically increase pressures, particularly with rounds such as the .40 S&W and 357 SIG.

I do find the emphasis on cleaning very interesting since it tends to contradict Glock hyping their product as low maintenance weapons that can tolerate a lot of abuse--an ideal LEO weapon! It seems Glock wants to market them one way them one way and maintain them another way. (I, for one, am a firm believer in clean, well-maintained weapons and am not condoning poor maintenance--that Glock marketing has at least tacitly condoned/encouraged poor maintenance has been sore point from day one.) Somehow, the entire marketing scheme of a low maintenance weapon that can handle the daily abuse of LE and then saying anything less than "meticulously cleaned" chamber/barrel can lead to a kaboom seems basically dishonest (in the extreme).

3. Glock specifically recommends the use of JACKETED ammunition only.

I have not seen that specific recommendation in any Glock literature (specifically the user's guide that comes with the weapon). Maybe, they need to amend their literature (and advertising/marketing) to the effect of specifically warning against the use of lead, plated, and thin jacketed ammunition?

 

[Sarge111]

Right.... 'dirty guns', or 'it's the ammo'

I guess that's why there have been so many similar occurrences with Beretta .40's..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=beretta+96+frame+failures&btnG=Google+Search

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Gut feeling tells me there is a weakness somewhere in the system. Guy I used to work with had a Glock 40 kb. Factory JHP, cracked frame, blew magazine out. Glock replaced it no questions asked, no explainations given. Could have been dirty as I dont remember him being an avid shooter.

 

[MikeJ]

While we are on the subject of kabooms, I thought I would mention one that happened 2 weeks ago at one of our local ranges. This guy had a Ruger birdshead Vaquero that he was doing his own reloading for. To make a short story even shorter, the gun blew the top strap off and the cylinder out sending him and the guy next to him to the hospital for a few stitches. They took a picture of the gun as a warning to others about the dangers of improper reloads. He admitted that he was exceeding the proper reloading guidelines. Be careful and safe shooting, Mike

 

[jc2]

Sarge -

Why don't you get a little more specific with cites? I scanned the top three or four hits on your "search" and only found references the M9 slide separation which is (1) ancient history; (2) with the 9x19 (not .40 S&W); (3) a totally different problem; and (3) unlike Glock, has been fixed by manufacturer.

MikeJ -

Anybody can blow anything up with reloads (particularly when enthusiasm overcomes caution), but the concern with the G22/23 are repeated kabooms with factory ammo.

 

[Detritus]

Therefore it is reasonable to speculate that situations like that are why some 1911 grip makers add metal backing plates to their wooden or rubber grips.

actually the armoring of 1911 grip panels had very little to NOTHING to do with overloaded 45acp rounds. and a HECK of alot more to do with guys shooting Hot-rodded .38 Supers, that (like the glock .40s and .45) had barrels that left the case head unsupported. the results of a case failure in that setup prior to the steel inserts coming on the scene were, usually, Mag blown out of gun, grips permanently attached to shooters hand!

that was a case of "borderline design" meeting, shooter trying to sqeeze the last drop of muzzle Velocity out of the round/gun. resulting in guys having to have thier grips surgically removed from thier palms. but the incidence of failure with factory ammo was almost Nil in the guns involved.

Glock on the other hand put a gun out that left the case head unsupported, chambered in a round that is often factory loaded to pressures that make 9mm look like a fart (esp LE amo)! and the main reason for this decision on Glock's part.... they didn't want to take the time to do a redesign so as to have a properly sized and designed system. they knew that the 9mm frame guns would handle the round "well enough" and thought that the failure rate would be lower than it has been (and even now it's still a low statistic compared to number in service, but higher than it should be) .

they crammed 15lbs of TNT in a 10 pound sack. and we keep beating each other over the head in a debate on whether it's safe to light the fuse.

 

[dsk]

For the record I have not had nor seen a Glock kB (yet). However I sold the Glock 23 I had not long after buying it, all because the large bulge in the fired cases actually freaked me out. All it takes is an overloaded round, defective case, or whatever. Impossible with factory ammo? Well, once I actually found a box of factory CCI ammo where a couple rounds didn't have the case rims machined! There were a true "rimless" case. I sent them into CCI for their inspection but never received a response or a replacement box of ammo. It just goes to show that even factory ammo can be bad.

 

[Sarge111]

Jc2

"Sarge -

Why don't you get a little more specific with cites? I scanned the top three or four hits on your "search" and only found references the M9 slide separation which is (1) ancient history; (2) with the 9x19 (not .40 S&W); (3) a totally different problem; and (3) unlike Glock, has been fixed by manufacturer."

No need for me to be more specific- you figured it out for yourself. The whole point to that exercise was that the same cross section of the shooting public, who occasionally shoot reloads and don't clean their guns 'meticulously', use both the Glock and the Beretta 96, in the same manner and with the same ammunition. The Border Patrol uses the Beretta in considerable numbers, and with hot 155s. So where are all the blown 96's? Nowhere to be found, that's where. We don't get a continual stream of NCIC/TTY's on blown Beretta .40's, either. Oh, there probably have been a couple, but they are not in the same statistical universe with the Glock when it comes to catastrophic failures.

It's not the ammo, and it's not the cleaning issue. Cops have been carrying dirty guns since there have been cops and guns. Some of us are gun people, and some are not. Some, despite our best efforts to the contrary, seem to think that the only time they'll ever need that pistola is for qualifications. Maybe the good Lord will smile on them, and they'll be right. Not all of us have been that fortunate.

The problem with the Glock is with the gun, and more specifically the barrel. Their 9's are superbly-engineered defense/LE/military pistols, and there's no reason their .40 couldn't have been. But they cut corners, and re-bored the 9 instead of designing a .40 from scratch. The result was not what we had hoped, but I'm sure Glock is satisfied with the sales figures. You'd think they would be interested in protecting their credibility with LE and the shooting public, but they evidently don't see this as cause for concern.

Unfortunately, it appears that they are correct.

 

[MikeJ]

jc2

I am totally aware of that fact, just thought I would mention this occurrence as a bit of interest. Mike

 

[fastbolt]

Are you in fact blaming the frame material? How would the frame fail to contain pressure, or affect the action unlocking early?

I could've been a bit more clear, huh?

Actually, I'm not "blaming" the frame material at all ... I like polymer pistol frames ... although metal might more likely withstand such a casehead failure, in some cases, better than polymer. Just as polymer might not withstand falling onto concrete as well as metal, if a pistol were dropped onto such a surface ... although other variables would likely affect this, such as temperature of the materials, weight, height of the fall, etc. Polymer & metal both have advantages & disadvantages when it comes to their application as firearms frames ...

We had a reloaded 9mm ... 125gr LRN ... experience a casehead failure in one of our 59XX series pistols way back when, before we were able to use FMJ/JHP factory ammunition for training. The pistol suffered no damage of any kind, and was returned to service after inspection. The shooter was surprised, but uninjured.

Someone else had a similar casehead failure in a Walther framed SW99, and the resulting pressures cracked the polymer frame, and caused a piece of the frame to be blown out . The shooter was surprised, but fortunately only experienced a stinging to his hand where the frame piece left for parts unknown over the top edge of his hand. The slide, barrel, extractor, magazine (metal) were all undamaged ... and even the "exposed" metal parts within the frame appeared mechanically functional and undamaged. The frame required replacement.

Now, we were told during a S&W SW99/P99 armorer's course that after their study of polymer framed pistols suffering such problems, it was their opinion that a polymer framed pistol would probably experience frame damage something like 50% of the time problems like this occurred. This was a higher incidence than with metal framed pistols. Fortunately, such situations didn't occur very often, and most manufacturers were taking great care to design and produce polymer framed pistols which operated safely when used with quality ammunition ...

The only polymer framed pistols for which I can say I haven't heard or read about a frame failure, caused by whatever problem, was the excellent HK P9S ... although I don't think I've ever heard of a frame failure with the VP-70, either ...

Doesn't mean it hasn't occurred ... I just haven't heard of it, is all.

Now, Glock 22's have been mentioned in a growing number of instances where frame failures have occurred, and some of them have been of the catastrophic nature, where the frame was severely damaged ... and the shooter suffered some injury. Other models and calibers have also been mentioned in this regard, but the .40's have appeared to be mentioned in greater numbers ... so far.

I've watched someone qualifying with a G22 who experienced failures of the slide to return completely to battery. Fortunately, it also resulted in the pistol failing to fire. His recoil spring was weak, and a simple test revealed it lacked sufficient strength to return the slide to battery when manipulated by hand, with an empty chamber. Time for a new recoil spring assembly.

Casually inspecting fired brass on the ground revealed a few striker indentations that were off center, compared to some other primer hits from other Glocks at various times ...

I had a former Glock armorer tell me one time that "tolerance stack" might sometimes result in a condition where a pistol might not "disconnect" when the slide was slightly out-of-battery. If the aggregate collection of operating parts were within their various individual proper tolerances, but each of them were perhaps at "different" ends of their allowable tolerance ranges ... then when assembled together in different pistols, it might be possible for the resulting "tolerance stack" to create a mechanical condition where the striker might be released with the pistol slightly out-of-battery. That's why armorers check for such things when inspecting pistols for expected wear & tear, and replacing parts ...

Also, if a recoil spring became weakened to the point where when the trigger was depressed, and the striker spring was compressed, the recoil spring might lack sufficient strength to resist being compressed by the action of the striker spring being compressed. In other words, the recoil spring might not be strong enough to keep the slide & barrel locked in battery during the mechanical act of pulling the trigger and compressing the striker spring. If the slide was pulled out of battery by the strength of the striker spring being compressed, and the recoil spring lacked the proper strength to return the slide back into battery before the striker could hit the primer cup ... and the tolerance stack of the fire control parts allowed the striker to hit the primer cup with sufficient force to detonate the primer compound ...

Well, that might be a bad thing ... and a polymer frame might not be able to contain such a resulting problem as well as a metal frame might ... maybe ...

Ever look at the way some barrels have split apart after some "catastrophic" failures?

Even back in the 1992 Glock Armorer's Manual the Glock Pistol Inspection Form lists some interesting component checks. It lists the barrel to be checked for being bulged, cracks at the muzzle & longitudinal cracks ... cracks in the slide, "especially under ejection port" ... and "receiver cracked". Armorers really try to catch conditions which might have the potential to lead to eventual problems.

During another armorer's class one time, one of the other students was also a Glock armorer. When we got to talking about the differences in how various pistols "disconnected", the subject of a pistol potentially firing out-of-battery came up ... and Glocks were mentioned. He was of the opinion that it was impossible for a Glock to fire out of battery. Someone produced an empty G17, and we tested this with the "highly scientific" method of retracting the slide, inserting a pencil in the barrel and pulling the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the ceiling. I think we left a couple itty-bitty holes in the hosting agency's ceiling ...

We've since repeated this informal test with a few striker fired pistols, including other Glocks ... and sometimes a Glock would launch the pencil when the trigger was pulled, while the slide was being manually held slightly out of battery ... and then sometimes it wouldn't ...

More knowledgeable armorers than me have told me that any pistol is potentially capable of mechanically firing when in an out-of-battery condition. But are some more likely to do this than others? I'm certainly not qualified to make such a determination, and won't even indirectly imply such a thing.

I think Glocks are fine pistols. My personal favorites are the G17 and the G26 ... although I own neither of them at this time ... I think the full size G17 is a bit large for a 10-shot capacity pistol, but that's hardly Glock's fault ...

I think we'll eventually learn more about the latest G22 failures back east. The L/E teletype said the incidents were being reviewed by both Federal & Glock, and interested L/E agencies could request the results of those studies when the information was available. We're certainly interested.

Anybody want to bet against an ammunition related problem? Not me ... not with 3 pistols involved while shooting the same ammunition, although of 2 different Lots.

And if it turns out to be an ammunition related problem, would the circumstances have been any different if different pistols, with metal frames, had been involved? Who knows? I sure don't ...

As has been mentioned elsewhere, even metal framed pistols aren't "immune" against catastrophic failures when a "bad" ammunition related problem occurs ...

I don't have ANY answers ... but I have many of the same questions as most of you ... and I'm always interested in learning anything else as it develops ...

I'll keep carrying ALL of my steel, aluminum & polymer framed weapons, though ... Of course, I'm not using any Federal ammunition at the moment, but that's simply a coincidence.

Oh yeah ... I'd like to add a thought that's always bothered me a bit ... A LOT of Glock "fans" are fond of referring to Glocks as "dry shooting" pistols, and "easy" pistols to "work on" and "replace parts" without having to be an armorer ...

Does this sort of thinking about a firearm scare anyone else? I mean, if armorers are trained to carefully check for the proper fit & function of parts in an assembled pistol ... which includes checking the functional operation in regard to the assembled parts being within the proper specification & "tolerance" for safe operation, in any particular pistol ... might it be possible for someone not trained as a Glock armorer to miss something when they're replacing "parts", or "accessorizing"? Not to mention ignoring the manufacturer's instructions for proper lubrication ...

 

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

I see where you're coming from; what's a failure for a plastic frame might have just been a lost magazine for steel. (FYI, the P9S frame is steel.)


I think the Glock in .40 particularly, does three problematic things:

1. Has that huge, unsupported chamber.
2. Can fire out of battery.
3. Has a ignition set up that works in opposition to the slide closing, potentially exasperating the first two.

In total, I think the not as easy to feed .40, which has a weak case for its 9mm operating pressures, is occasionally failing to allow the low mass slide to close completely, helped by the opposition of the striker spring. The gun fires, the action unlocks early and way too much pressurized case is exposed, especially on the bottom.

This theory predicts that such a failure, with normal factory ammo, is more likely on followup shots, rather than after loading with the finger off the trigger.


Does anyone know of a factory ammo KaBoom that occurred on the first shot fired?

 

[JohnKSa]

Hi jc2 (aka juliet charley from The Firing Line), I see you're up to your same old tricks--why don't you try some new material? I think it's safe to say you've completely worn out this topic over the last couple of years on TFL and now THR.

The more things change, the more things stay the same, I guess. I kind of figured you wouldn't be able to resist posting a little anti-Glock propaganda on a thread like this...

BTW, are you still claiming to own a Glock? I mean after posting repeatedly on TFL that you didn't own one and would never own another one?

Also curious as to your motive in trying to convince people that firing lead in Glock barrels is safe? You wouldn't be trying to generate a few more kB!s would you? You KNOW that it's not safe--it's been in print more times than you or I can count, and your quibbling about the exact wording of the owner's manual is a feeble attempt to dodge the real issue.

If you really wanted to provide useful information about Glocks and lead, you would have called Glock using the number I provided you numerous times. They would have told you what they tell everyone. Don't shoot lead in Glock barrels.

 

[Handy]

Jeez, John, you might want to leave the off topic personal stuff to Tamara. She's less likely to get a thread closed.

Or is that what you're up to?


But really, did JC2 (great expose', BTW) say anything in THIS thread that was a logical fallacy? Or was the old TFL stuff just worth bringing up?

 

[Tamara]

JohnKSa,

This board offers a private message service that is splendidnly equipped for continuing personal feuds.

I'd suggest using it.

 

[fastbolt]

Handy,

I thought I remembered the P9 having a sub frame of steel, contained within a polymer frame. It's been so long since I fired one in .45 ACP that I may have it mixed up with something else. I'm thinking about the nice (but expensive) pistol that had the large & rather obvious frame mounted decocking lever (the lever that made it very hard to find holsters) ... fixed barrel ... rollers ... with the oddly shaped, but very comfortable grip.

Maybe I'm hallucinating ...