Glock 21 KABOOM's and Portland Police

[Badger Arms]

Okay, I hate to do this, but this is the first somewhat authoritative source I've seen claim that the Glock in 45 caliber might also suffer from catastrophic failure. To quote the following article - http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=33826:

Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth has ordered a recall of .45-caliber Glock Model 21 firearms, weapons carried by 230 Portland officers.

His order comes after two of the guns exploded in the hands of two separate officers during training this month. Neither of the officers was seriously injured.

"We don't want a reoccurrence of this happening again," Foxworth said. "It's the prudent thing to do."

The Portland Police Bureau at first thought the problem was caused by an ammunition malfunction. After the second explosion, the bureau's training division did further analysis and determined the explosions may have been caused by a defect in the weapon or a design problem.

Police will switch to 9 mm handguns. They are negotiating with company, whose North American headquarters is in Smyrna, Ga., to replace the .45-caliber weapons with 9 mm handguns at no cost.

Because the .45-caliber Glock is popular among law enforcement, the Portland police training officers sent a teletype to agencies nationwide. They heard back from several, including agencies in Florida and Texas, that had similar problems.

Other agencies, including the Los Angeles Police Department, and Multnomah and Clackamas counties sheriff's departments, reported no problems.

Well, whatcha think? Last thread like this got closed, IIRC, but this is recent news.

 

[Hal]

Police will switch to 9 mm handguns.

If that wasn't so sad it would be funny.
A polymer gun firing a round @ ~16,000 psi
KB's
and the *cure*
replace it with a polymer gun firing a round @ ~ 30,000 psi.

yep real bureaucratic rocket science there alright.

 

[Obiwan]

The 9mm Glocks are the least problematic of all their models.

So....while I won't comment on their "the sky is falling" reaction.....

The choice is a logical one....

Same weapon system they have trained with...same manual at arms, etc.

 

[twbredw]

was both officers guns using the same type of ammunition?

 

[GunNut]

Yes, they were both using ammo from Federal.

 

[RikWriter]

I've seen enough reports such as these that I wouldn't be comfortable carrying a Glock in 45 or 40.

 

[RTFM]

If that wasn't so sad it would be funny.
A polymer gun firing a round @ ~16,000 psi
KB's
and the *cure*
replace it with a polymer gun firing a round @ ~ 30,000 psi.

yep real bureaucratic rocket science there alright.

:banghead: (<not you Hal, but the switch to a higher pressure ^ .)

RTFM

 

[TBeck]

The switch makes sense from the point of view that Glock will be supplying the new guns for free so the PD doesn't have to suddenly fork over the cash to rearm the entire force. He probably chose 9mm (I'm guessing the G17) because it has had the fewest problems of all the Glocks models.

Chances are Portland PD will be looking for a new sidearm eventually, but with local government fiscal conditions being what they are nationwide, finding a no-cost substitute was a sensible thing to do.

In the meantime the PD might want to consider allowing officers to carry personal weapons if they feel inadequately armed with a 9mm.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Hal,

How does the fact that the gun is polymer figure into the kaboom?

 

[Dienekes]

You Will Probably Never See This--But...

It would be interesting to see if any agency would ever have the guts to say the hell with looking for the "perfect gun" and go back to revolvers.

Most "old time" LEOs who had mastered the wheelgun never felt "undergunned" with them. I know I didn't. The usual thing was three feet, three seconds, three shots. With six for sure the situation was generally manageable. As an instructor I got better performance out of motivated officers than I did later with Glocks and SIGs.

As a matter of fact I took my second Glock armorer class in the new PPD building and saw the then new Glock 21s at that time. They, along with the Mini-14 Government Models were something I managed to live without, even though I could have bought them at substantial discounts at the time.

My recent fooling around with Ruger's P97 makes me wonder if it isn't a better duty gun than the Glock 21 anyway. At least it fits the average hand...

BTW PPD has a love-hate relationship with Glock. about 10 years ago they had some alleged ADs with Glocks (17s, as I recall). Initial blame was placed on the guns. It was later found out that they had been the subjects of some unauthorized "tuning". Oops. That only came out after a couple of weeks of newspaper stories about how dangerous the Glocks were.

 

[JohnKSa]

Let's see...

We have a lot of guns. (more than 20--maybe 100 or more?)

We shoot them all the time. (Regularly--with lots of different types of ammo?)

We shoot them for a long time. (several years?)

Suddenly in the space of a month, two of them blow up using the same kind of ammunition. Oh, BTW, the ammo is from a company that is currently recalling ammo in another caliber.

Sounds like the guns must be defective.

 

[Fed168]

Any idea what shape they were in or when the last preventitive maintaince was?

 

[Badger Arms]

Guns don't just up and blow-up. 45 ACP is very easy to overcharge or double-charge. It could be that they got a bad batch of ammo. Still, doesn't Glock proof-test guns before they put them into production?

 

[Tamara]

Well, whatcha think?

I think you could've posted to one of the half-dozen threads already running on this topic.

As far as any special Glock weakness involved, do we have solid proof that the two rounds in question wouldn't have detonated any other .45 ACP handgun? I saw a guy blow a Redhawk to flinders once. Does this mean that Redhawks are unsafe?

 

[jc2]

I saw a guy blow a Redhawk to flinders once.

With factory ammunition from a major manufacturer like Federal?

 

[Badger Arms]

As far as any special Glock weakness involved, do we have solid proof that the two rounds in question wouldn't have detonated any other .45 ACP handgun? I saw a guy blow a Redhawk to flinders once. Does this mean that Redhawks are unsafe?

The logic test on this one is: If Glocks are as likely as other pistols to have a KB, then why do we hear so many stories about Glocks and virtually none about Redhawks? How about Sigs? Beretta's? Rugers? Not that KB's can't happen with those guns, but FACTORY ammo is to blame in many Glock grenade imitations whereas other manufacturers generally don't play suicide bomber without reloads.

What that means is that Glock cannot claim there is nothing wrong in the face of all of these incidents. Sure, I like Glocks as much as the next guy, but why can't they get this problem fixed?

 

[Hal]

Lone_Gunman,
("How does the fact that the gun is polymer figure into the kaboom?")
Doesn't really -- - - other than the frame isn't steel -

 

[Lone_Gunman]

One reason we hear about Glock Kabooms more than other brands is that there are more Glocks out there than a lot of the others, and all the various Glock models get lumped into one big category.

 

[jc2]

Do you really honestly believe there are more Glock 21s "out there" than 1911s?
More Glocks than K-frame Smiths?
More Glocks than Rugers? (If you do, you haven't looked at any sales figures.)
More Glocks than Smiths (any variety).
I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't more Makarovs out there than Glocks?

If anything, Glocks have a disproportionate number of kabooms relative to other designs.

 

[VonFatman]

Sounds to me...

Like somebody is going to get a great deal on a bunch of police trade-ins!!

There is always a silver lining...

I probably won't put my G-21 up for sale just yet

VonFatman

 

[Lone_Gunman]

jc2,

I am not sure your conclusion that Glocks have a disporportionate number of Kabooms can be substantiated, but at the same time I have no data to refute it.

 

[Edward429451]

I don't have any data either, but doesn't it stand to reason that there are way more 1911's out there than Glocks? 1911's have been out a looong time, while Glock is still in it's infancy.

Subjectivly speaking, I agree that the Glock KB's are in a way disproportionate number than 1911's. Like it or not, the drastic plastic has it's problems.

JMO.

 

[Obiwan]

I have heard of plenty of Sigs, HK's etc going boom instead of bang.

As far as the laymans try at statistics.....

Just look at how many threads are going on about this incident....

Almost seems like 20-30 kabooms rather than 2 doesn't it????


Polygonal rifling plays a big part also.....not many handguns with p-rifling.

And plenty of geniuses out there that don't think barrel lead buildup can happen to them!

 

[45auto]

In 45 ACP, there would be a lot more 1911's out being shot than Glocks...no comparison IMO. 9mm and 40, Glock... hands down.

Notice, the police department will probably end up with new Glocks in 9mm at no charge. I wonder why they didn't pick the 40. .

You know how strong the brand is when they will probably take them in any caliber, just as long as it's a Glock.

I'd bet the other two agencies that experienced problems will have new guns soon also.
No matter what you think of Glock, you have to admire their aggressive sales and service.

 

[JohnKSa]

Perspective...

One of the more "vigorous compilers of glock incidents" whose initials are D.S. has now updated his site to include the latest Portland PD Glock incident. (Remember the last one--where Portland PD claimed that their Glock 9mms were shooting by themselves and then had to fess up that they had been modified improperly?)

Prior to the update, the most recent Glock 21 incident on his site was dated 2000 or 2001--can't remember now.

I've started making a point of checking dates when these "frequent" incidents "pop up". Most of them go back to a link referring to an incident that is years old.

If you just look at the post without checking, you go away thinking--"Yup! Another Glock blowup!" In reality, it's often just a replay of one you read about years ago...