Glock KABOOMS-or DANG IT ANYWAY!

[jc2]

Actually, I do own a G26 and carry it regularly (which has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy or legitimacy of my remarks on this thread, does it). While I did post a year or so ago that I did not own a Glock and probably never would own another I had just been through a move and starting new job where I havd been forced to sell many of my handguns (as I had advised you both pubicly and privately). Things do change, you know?

My remarks in thread concern primarily the G22/23, and I have been logical, accurate and well within the scope of the thread. I have remained, and remain, consistent in my evaluation of the G22/23. The remarks I make concerning the G22/23 should not necessarily be generalized to the rest of the Glock line--particularly not the 9x19s (as I have also stated in the past). Glocks are tools, and as a whole model line they have their own strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate their strengths and decry their weakness, but I would also add not all Glock models are created equal.

I believe (along with quite of few others) a combination of factors in including barely in tolerance as a standard (which out of tolerance on occassion) chambers, light recoil springs, the ability to fire out of battery (which is exacerbated by being striker-fired), coupled with the .40 S&W cartridge is a combination ripe for disaster.

I don't believe I've encouraged the use of lead bullets in this thread--in fact, I have limited my remarks to factory bullets and pointedly ignored lead bullets. I know in other threads I have stated I personally do not use lead bullets in automatics for a number or reasons.

What I have questioned (legitimately) is Glock's reluctance to publish in warnings or cautions about the use of lead bullets in their handguns if the problem is as serious as the myth would have it. It is one thing to privately advise against the use of lead bullets (or even more astoundingly suggest Glocks should be kept "meticulously clean"--contrary to most of the hype), and it is an totally different thing to publicly acknowledge in the various user's guide that Glocks have a problem with lead bullets, and they should be kept "meticulously clean" in order to avoid kabooms (particularly when the thrust of their advertising is that Glocks are tough, low-maintenance, take any abuse handguns). I think Glock strives sometimes to have the best of both worlds to detriment of shooters.

 

[Handy]

Fastbolt,

You're thinking of the right gun, it's just that the metal frame is the frame. The P9S polymer trigger guard and grips are just that, and not at all strutural. While uncomfortable, the weapon is fireable with the plastic off.

It may seem a fine distinction, but is applicable to your example. I imagine that steel skeleton is stronger than a Sig alloy frame, for example.

 

[JohnKSa]

jc2,

Congrats on your purchase of a Glock pistol and welcome to the world of Glock owners.

Or should I say... to the dark side?

What took you so long?

For what it's worth, I don't own a gun chambered for .40 S&W for various reasons, some of which are posted on this thread. (Some of which you have posted.)

I am curious about your statement that a Glock will fire out of battery (unless it's broken or otherwise malfunctioning). Have you a particular documentable instance in mind?

 

[surfinUSA]

I never worry about my glock 27. This happens in all guns. Yeah Glock is making the press right now. But over on AR15, The armory, page 2 general discusion someone just blew their Para ord. 9mm and somone else described the same thing in their CZ 85 combat. Both were wolf ammo I believe.

 

[Handy]

All guns will fire out of battery, in varying amounts. It's all just a question of engagement angles and disconnector play.

Both the Sig and the Glock will fire at the position where the barrel first comes into fully locking engagement, about 4 or 5mm from full battery. With the Sig, this doesn't seem to be a problem, probably because the hammer seats the slide the rest of the way.

On the Glock, this position equals the action opening quite a bit earlier than designed and failing to contain the pressure peak.

You can try it yourself with an unloaded or blank loaded weapon. On a newer gun, the muzzle will be just behind the tip of the protruding guide rod. You have to play around a little. Doing so will also demonstrate how much the striker spring is fighting the recoil spring.

I think the 9mms don't show this tendency due to a stronger case and better feed characteristics.

 

[Dean Speir]

Resolution to this matter

 

Tamara asks:

Out of curiousity, do you know what kind of ammo it was?

Federal, which, of course, had case-web issues which they addressed almost eight years ago.

Two weeks ago I e-mailed the R.O. in that department, Deputy Danny Michaels, to follow up on his teletype LE advisory/warning, and never heard back from him.

Suspecting that it was both a "Brotherhood of the Blue" issue as well as a problem with his command, I had a trusted firearms training officer friend from another department contact him right after that. Four days ago, Deputy Danny Michaels responded to him with a message stating simply that "it was the ammo."

Lotta problems with Glock pistols… this incident wasn't one of them.

And for all you hotshots who keep insisting that "a Sheriff's Office in TN blew-up three G22s with 155-grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP ammunition injuring three deputies," this was in Pennsylvania! (There's more than one "Warren County" in the USA!)

 

[jc2]

Dean -

You're right. I went back and checked--the NLETS said PA. I could have sworn I saw TN.

 

[BigG]

{40 S&W}...often factory loaded to pressures that make 9mm look like a fart...

I have to admit, that made me chuckle.

Somewhere in the literature provided with GLOCK pistols (I've owned three - 19, 27, 23) there is an admonition not to shoot LEAD or UNJACKETED bullets, and ONLY SHOOT FACTORY AMMO.

Anybody who looks at GLOCK fired cases is usually impressed by the pregnant guppy effect near the case head. Can't fathom why people reload these.

 

[Handy]

I didn't get that one (though cute). 9mm +P is a higher pressure load than any standard .40 load.

.40 has more power and recoil, because is operates at 9mm pressures over a larger volume. But it is not a higher pressure round.

 

[1911Tuner]

As fate would have it

I took a trip to the range yesterday early to test-fire a pistol
that I had just finished with. When I arrived, i went to my
favorite bay...the one with the falling plates and Pepper Poppers
(It's a rough job, but somebody's gotta do it)

I saw the ground littered with Blazer cases...all .40 caliber.
Fussin' and fumin' about folks who don't clean up their messes,
I started policing up the stuff. I noticed that some had
the tell-tale bulge that suggested that either somebody had
been there with a Glock, or had seriously butchered a throat job... and then I found THE empty case...the one that had blown.
Glancing around a little further, I also saw a few drops of blood
on the concrete pad that led from there to the parking area.
Further investigation revealed two small shards of black
plastic.

Wonder what conclusions that we can draw from this...

Tuner

 

[Handy]

Well, those were probably just reloaded Blazer cases.

 

[MikeJ]

I was out at the range the other day with my 2nd generation Glock 23 and after reading all these reports on kabooms decided to check my fired cases for bulges. I was shooting 165 grain Amercian Eagle ammo and for the life of me couldn't see any bulges in the cases. I was just wondering if all Glocks are supposed to do this or if it only occurrs with some Glocks?

 

[Grump]

Gee, NRA Bullseye shooters kB!d their .45 ACP 1911s with overloads way back in the '60s. IPSC shooters got really good at it with occasional .45s (bad loads again) and much more frequently with .38 Supers in the '80s.

Hence, the "ramped" barrel was born.

I've put creases in .40 cases fired from a Glock and took that as a severe warning that the old "major" power factor of 175 could not be safely attained with 180-gr bullets and WW 231 powder.

Is the Glock barrel really "oversize", or just at the max tolerance for the specs? IN my NSHO, the Glock feed ramp cutout extends only about 1mm too far forward into the chamber for the pressure range of .357 SIG and .40 S&W.

But that only addresses the case failure kB!s. The OEM barrel chamber splits are rather troublesome, and do not appear to be very common at all in other manufacturers' guns. Why? I'm sure that overpressure ammo is implicated in every case failure and especially in every barrel failure NOT involving bad steel.

I don't buy out of battery firing with newer Glocks with the redesigned trigger bar--the firing pin safety is now disengaged later in the trigger stroke. "Tolerance stack" should NOT be possible to a dangerous degree with the current design--if so, the design remains defective in an arguably small way.

Because lead-bullet and pressure spike "misuse" is so foreseeable, I see the feed ramp support as another arguably small design defect which can be overcome with adequate user care. BUT what we need is some firing cycle tests to quantify how many cycles of reloading are needed to make a case brittle and let go at the feed ramp. This must be using pressure-tested ammo, with 25% overpressure "proofs" every 5 firing cycles for the brass.

As far as "tolerance stack," Glock and/or the knowledgable ones should PUBLISH the testing protocol to detect this problem. The pencil test is good, and the G-XXs I've examined stop bouncing the pencil just as the camming surfaces engage to unlock the barrel--it's still fully engaged/locked, but there is no "dwell time" from the 3 mm or so of slide movement that SHOULD happen before the surfaces meet. NOTE--the firing pin impact should still be centered at that point, within the tolerances of the round being centered in the chamber.

The biggest problem I have with this is the relatively clean (500 rounds or less with jacketed ammo) kB!s using factory ammo in well-maintained guns like those LEO stories. When the FACTORY makes a bad round, how far overpressure is it likely to be? We once again have a foreseeability issue here. If the process control/QC stats guys can tell us that figure either from forward-looking estimates, or from retrospective experience (or destructive testing like the legendary Clark's hobby!), then the firearm should be designed with enough safety margin to contain at least 95% of the ammo maker's errors.

Me, I use slower powders and clean my barrel usually every 100 rounds, and always by 200 rounds. I'll be tracking my brass as well. Since light loads go down to around 23,000 psi while still being not that wimpy, there should be lots of room for safety. Maybe.

 

[Handy]

Whether you buy it or not, I have had both my brother's 3rd Gen Glocks detonate primed cases not fully in battery, in a way identical to my 2nd gen.

The dwell time you mention is the lock. If the action immediately unlocks, it's no different than never being locked. The action must be locked for a period of time for pressures to drop.

If the action starts out at a point just before unlocking, then it is no different than a gas operated rifle that should have a gas port 14" down the bore, relocated to an inch down. Unlocking early will expose the pressurized case and it will rupture.

 

[Grump]

Handy, Newton's laws dictate that there is a delay between the bullet starting down the bore and the barrel/slide assembly beginning its motion backwards. Yes, it's far less when the locking block is already touching the barrel's unlocking cam.

What I find interesting is that the SIG P- series has noticeably more travel distance between reeely, trooooly, fullllly in battery and the engagement of the unlocking surfaces, as compared to the Glock. Leaves a lot more "wiggle room" for tolerance stack, doesn't it?

That's why I'd LOVE to superimpose a cycling time chart over a pressure/time curve. IIRC, other firearms (maybe even the Glock) don't move the locked barrel/slide assembly even 1mm rearward until the bullet has cleared the muzzle.... Anyone have more hard data on this?

But yes, the pressure just might still be unsafe as extraction exposes a larger area of case wall if the gun fires with the unlocking surfaces already touching.

 

[Handy]

Apparently, Sig extended the lock dwell on the post 225 9mms to increase accuracy.

 

[Grump]

Never examined a P225 to compare it with the 226 and 228... Did SIG increase the dwell time by altering the unlocking surface of the locking block, or by trimming the camming surface on the barrel?

 

[TaxPhd]

Trying to recall my high school physics, and I don't recall any of Newton's Laws of Motion indicating that there should be a delay. Which Law is it that says this?

 

[BigG]

The delay they are talking about is mechanically contrived that allows the bbl to recoil a certain distance before unlatching from the slide/breechblock which can then continue on its merry way. Mr. Newton is still safe (I think)!

 

[Handy]

No, Taxphd is right. Grump's post does make it sound like the bullet moves, THEN the slide begins to recoil at some time down the road. In reality, the slide/barrel drives in the opposite direction of the bullet immediately, being fired from the bullet just as much as the bullet is fired from it.


Grump,

I think Sig changed the locking block, but I would not be surprised if the change required a shift to all the locking surfaces. Does anyone sell a 228/225 barrel?

 

[TaxPhd]

George,

I know. I was just tryin' to get people riled. ;-)

No delay in Barrel/slide moving back. Delay is barrel unlocking from the slide.