Posted 24 February 2005 07:46 PM
Numerous failures of G21's in law enforcement use around here, including three blown guns at the local Police Academy and multiple magazine failures, have resulted in many of the tactical teams in our area going back to 1911's. All the blown LE Glock's had ONLY fired new factory ammo. Glock's in other than 9mm seem particularly prone to this problem, as the Glock disconnector allows the pistols to fire slightly out of battery. If you are LE, you can discuss these problems with Don Lazzarini, who was on the SWAT team many years, as well serving as range-master and armorer with Santa Clara PD; he has the most in depth knowledge of this issue of anyone I have met so far.
Larry Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to simultaneously serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments and may have more experience with .45 ACP pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth. Vickers has publicly stated:
quote:
"The 9mm Glocks are the best--the .40 S&W ones blow up and the full size .45 breaks - it's the worst gun Glock makes."
The bottom line is that the G21 has too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. I’ll stick to Glocks in 9 mm.
Posted 26 February 2005 02:10 AM
This topic has been discussed at length previously; each of us brings our own experiences into the debate. Since 1985, at various times I have personally been issued or authorized to use on duty Beretta 92F and M9’s, Sig P226, S&W 5906, Glock 17, Sig P220, S&W 4566, and various 1911’s. All of these pistols had both good and bad characteristics. I am also quite familiar with the Browning Hi-Power, S&W 4006, and have experience with the HK .45’s. In my current role I have gotten to travel around the country quite a bit and see what other units and agencies are using and assess how their weapon systems are functioning. There are many pistols which will give adequate service for routine law enforcement or military duty use. The number of pistols which are reliable, durable, and ergonomic enough for very demanding law enforcement tactical and harsh military special operations use is much smaller.
14 years and 66,500 rounds—-that works out to an average of 4750 rounds per year and is pretty typical of most LE pistol use. There are quite a few pistols that will hold up well to that type of routine use. Now, try 20,000+ rounds EVERY year and then see how many pistols can reach 14 years. Pat Rogers has written about the round counts of MEU-SOC 1911's
http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm:
quote:
"During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S. Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them."
As stated above, the number of pistols that can survive this type of hard-use is small.
As noted in my post above, Larry Vickers is very experienced with .45 ACP combat handguns that get used very hard. He has publicly written that: “The facility I work at consumes over 1 million rounds of .45 ACP hardball per year” When he writes that Glocks in other than 9 mm have durability issues in hard-use, it is because of this intense usage. However, he is not alone in his observations.
Like Larry Vickers, Hilton Yam is another pistolsmith of renown, who also has extensive end-user experience, in Hilton’s case LE SWAT. Hilton has written:
quote:
Today while at the range, I had the most unpleasant experience of seeing my entire Glock 23 slide assembly go downrange. Upon examination of the pistol, the cause of the failure was found to be the breakage of the slide lock (the takedown lever, NOT the slide stop) spring. This tiny leaf spring provides the spring tension that keeps the slide lock up and in place. With that broken, the slide lock went sideways and the slide went forward off the rails. The spring broke at the juncture where it is inserted into the frame. Initially, I thought I was totally SOL b/c it appeared that this spring was molded into the frame itself. Fortunately, this tiny spring is merely hooked into a recess in the frame and is easily replaced (in my case, with a spring from a handy spare G19). Aside from my obvious alarm at the failure of my primary weapon, this was the THIRD failure of this exact type I'd personally seen in the last 3 weeks. All failures were seen on Glock 23's, and the culprit on the other two was also the slide lock spring…my one Glock 23 broke before 10k rds, and another 23 was about to be melted into a paperweight before 2k rds thanks to constant malfunctions. Same goes for a new 22. Both newer guns were trying to wear an ITI M3, with limited success. While I recognize the Glocks as workhorse guns that have their place as fighting firearms, I consider them neither perfect nor fun.
I'm around several hundred Glock 22's and 23's that see use and abuse from mild to extreme. The guns are a solid service platform, but far from perfect and 100% reliable as people would make them out to be. The guns have a typical service life of about 20,000 rounds, often less, before some type of failure causes them to be pulled from service. One shooter I know well is on his FIFTH Glock in about as many years, having had failures with each one, to include going full auto, sheared bbl lug, cracked slide, and the top end falling off when the slide lock spring broke. I was present at each failure or personally inspected the parts subsequent to each. I've inspected countless other guns which met similar fates. The magazines typically only last for a 10k to 20k round count duty cycle before needing replacement. The guns can be very ammunition sensitive as well. I'm not down on Glocks, it's just that I recognize their shortcomings as far as durability and reliability.
Re: the HK USP series, they are indeed durable and reliable duty platforms, but their ergonomics and general shoot ability leave much to be desired. (added: this is solved with the new HK’s. Like the HK 45/45c, P2000/P2000sk, P30/P30L)
Re: the 1911, I am saddened that so few modern 1911's will work right out of the box, but the problems I see are from a manufacturing standpoint, not a design flaw. A 1911 that's made right either at the factory or by a custom shop will be every bit the reliable service weapon that was first fielded nearly a century ago. The 1911 wins many diehard converts because of its unequalled ergonomics, allowing the end user to achieve his maximum potential without fighting the gun.
The bottom line is that you don't need to like anyone else's choice of gun, but be able to articulate well why you choose your particular handgun.
Mr. Yam’s experiences are in line with what I have noted. One of our nearby SO's has approximately 800 deputies who have been issued G22's for over a decade; the SGT in charge of their FT stated they have never had a pistol which lasted beyond 50,000 rounds and many which had far less.
I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 or a properly set-up 1911 would be my first two choices for rugged hard use pistols. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. For typical relatively low round count LE duty—I’d probably have broader recommendations. If something else works better for you in your situation, then great, but when I must give advice or recommendations for specific requirements, I’ll do so with the best verified information which I can gather.
