good 9mm bullet option for hunting?

[KansasSasquatch]

Kansas just signed into law that ANY center fire handgun or rifle is legal for deer. So I could legally hunt with a Raven .25acp pocket pistol this year. But just because something is legal does not mean its a good idea. In a survival situation I would say shoot it with whatever you got. But if you have a more suitable rifle, or shotgun w/ slugs, maybe you should rethink this 9mm business. If you go with the 9mm, make sure you practice a lot with your chosen load, otherwise have fun tracking down a wounded animal. I believe the FBI has a statistic that on average, in gunfights, it takes 3 shots from a 9mm to get attackers to STOP. That doesn't mean they die quickly and humanely.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Kansas just signed into law that ANY center fire handgun or rifle is legal for deer. So I could legally hunt with a Raven .25acp pocket pistol this year. But just because something is legal does not mean its a good idea. In a survival situation I would say shoot it with whatever you got. But if you have a more suitable rifle, or shotgun w/ slugs, maybe you should rethink this 9mm business. If you go with the 9mm, make sure you practice a lot with your chosen load, otherwise have fun tracking down a wounded animal. I believe the FBI has a statistic that on average, in gunfights, it takes 3 shots from a 9mm to get attackers to STOP. That doesn't mean they die quickly and humanely.

Well said sir, that was my exact sentiment in Post #21.

 

[docsleepy]

Yep, you're right, I forgot the 2.2 factor in the equation when I calculated the kinetic energy of the arrow (was doing it on a calculator). So maybe 90 ft lbs.

Really fascinated that bullets routinely kill by some other means than blood loss in the torso. What might be that means?

I've taken care of a significant number of HUMANS (50-200 kg) who were dying from bullet wounds and in general, in the HUMAN species they die from the following pathologies:
a) blood loss. (the most popular)
b) central nervous system damage (brain shot, requires better marskman or closer proximity)
c) pneumothorax or tension pneumothorax (really rare)
d) devitalized tissue / infection (gut shot)

I would have thought that deer (50-200 kg) would have had similar modes of exit, but perhaps I'm missing something!

Surely the shape of the bloodletting instrument does have an effect (I once took care of a fellow who opened his front door and the visitor stuck a very large knife right into his heart), but in general, I would have presumed that it was the goal to lacerate as large/as many blood vessels as possible, and thus having additional kinetic energy would be looked upon as a "good" thing rather than a "bad" thing. (the fellow with the large knife in a very important organ survived until a surgeon opted to remove it)

Ive also taken care of a human whose steering wheel impacted their chest at a good velocity and managed to transect the aorta through and through -- clean rip right at a particular ligament) -- they also survived quite nicely right up until the moment that the surgeon entered the chest, whereupon their entire bodily supply of hemoglobin emptied upon our O.R. floor....

 

[docsleepy]

Not being a muzzleloader, I went to a page on the WWW and found their 300 grain balls go at roughly 1800 fps, or in the range of 2000 ft lbs. So that explains how the colonists took deer.


And if you're a purist, it might be more correct to say that the unlucky motorist impacted their own steering wheel, rather than the other way 'round. Let's see....maybe 1 million grains?

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I reload all my own ammo and have 4 different molds I use for 9mm my favorite being a 173gr SWC stuffed in a 9mm case.

You should be able to load it to 1100/1150 fps out of a 16in carbine depending on how hard you want to push it. Also should be over 500lbs of energy.


Being a SWC you should see a good mix between penetration and destruction. I would have no problem hunting a lot bigger game than a deer with 9mm as long as I was loading the ammo.

 

[GooseGestapo]

A former administrator and moderator on this and the former tfl website, Stephen Camp, used the 9mm to take some Texas whitetails.
He used the 124gr Hornady XTP over 6.0gr of Unique and reported good results.

I'd avoid the 147gr bullets for deer. They actually get lower velocities from a 16" carbine barrel than a 5-6" handgun barrel because of the very low powder quantities and greater barrel friction of the longer shank bullet. Past 10"-12" or so of barrel length, the bullet actually starts to decelerate in the barrel. I've seen this published in "Handloader" magazine as well as some of the older articles in the "American Rifleman" when they still had a reloading column.

I'd stick with the 124-125gr bullet weight and if reloading use either Longshot, Unique, or AA#7 powder. I'd prefer the Hornady XTP, but the Gold Dot, Sierra, Noslers would also do well.
A well placed shot from a 9mm carbine will most certainly do the job on a whitetail. As always, the emphasis in on proper placement of the bullet.

I shot a coyote with my compact XD-9 with a 130gr RFN bullet @ 1,100fps. It completly penetrated the torso and coyote dropped in about 20yds... A smallish deer would have done likewise. Expansion was minimal but shock from the flat-nosed Lee bullet was suprising.... Or, about like a .36cal muzzle-loader would have done....

 

[Certaindeaf]

I've taken deer and hog with the 9mm.. Browning Hi-Power. I used various standard pressure factory 115gr hp's and a few different cast SWC handloads. Not one suffered nor travelled very far at all. No head or neck shots either. I think it's a non-issue, especially out of a carbine.
I'd use a bonded 125gr HP or a cast SWC from that carbine.

 

[mtrmn]

I saw a big doe that had been killed with a Glock 17 last year. Shot with a reload, 6.0gr Unique with a 124gr Gold Dot. Bullet found lodged just under the hide on opposite side of the deer. Perfect mushroom performance from the GD and obviously penetration was adequate. Allegedly it took about 2 steps and collapsed, so DRT with a textbook behind the shoulder hit from about 30 yds.

 

[USSR]

Like Walkalong, I've killed a deer with a .22LR. But, that doesn't make a .22 rimfire any more of a deer cartridge than a 9mm Luger. I quit using a .357 Magnum on deer because I found IT to be a marginal deer cartridge, so I certainly couldn't recommend using a 9mm. Now, a .45 Colt.....

Don

 

[Kachok]

Like Walkalong, I've killed a deer with a .22LR. But, that doesn't make a .22 rimfire any more of a deer cartridge than a 9mm Luger. I quit using a .357 Magnum on deer because I found IT to be a marginal deer cartridge, so I certainly couldn't recommend using a 9mm. Now, a .45 Colt.....

Don

^ This. I am not a fan of deer hunting with 223s, small pistol cartridges, or 30 Carbines. I know people who use all of the above but my experence with them and what I have seen I don't have much faith in a quick clean kill. There are too many REALLY good low recoil options for me to want to play with a marginal cartridge. 243s, 257 Roberts, 6.5x55 all kick so light small children can handle them and deadly on game, no need for a 9mm.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.faith..

It's not about faith. Did you read this thread? Perhaps it's about testifying. Everybody that's actually shot a deer with a good 9mm has said they work well.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've shot a lot of both platforms and done extensive load work for both.

With careful bullet selection a 9mm carbine in fact does pretty much equal typical off the shelf 357 magnum loads from a revolver.

For reference in a locked breach 9mm carbine I've launched 147g xtp bullets northwards of 1500fps wich bests all but the most unusually hot 357 loads from a revolver.

So the real question here is at what point does a 357 revolver become ineffective. That answer will be the same for a 9mm carbine

 

[tahunua001]

alright I would like to thank everyone for their tips, hints, and comments. I appreciate everyone's opinions and understand the hesitance to use such a light cartridge. however would just like to point out that this isn't going to be the normal, go out and blast a deer at 250+ yards type of year that I normally have. I am actually attempting to challenge myself this year to make closer, cleaner, more precise shots and do so while giving myself a handicap. for instance just this weekend I took my first game animal using iron sights and the first using hunting loads that I developed myself. these types of challenges are what keeps hunting fresh for me and keeps them from just being an excuse to get out of the house. I know lots of people that have killed deer with 22lr but that doesn't mean I'm taking the ole 22/45 out for deer(not that it's legal in my state anyway) but it does make me want to become a better hunter. I don't own a 45 colt, 44 mag(anymore) or 357. my only short range limiting rifle is a 9mm carbine. by selecting a 9mm, I am forcing myself to step up my game and be better at being silent, being still and being better at stalking. I am limiting myself to shorter ranges meaning I have to become a better hunter and not the guy that blasts away and leaves a trail of wounded game in his wake.

now for the guys that are suggesting loads. I am starting to see a pattern of people using unique which is quite fortuitous for me as I share a reloading bench with a fellow that has lots of it. I have been having trouble deciding between a faster 124gr and slower 147gr and I think based on the assertion that the 147 will not gain as much velocity from carbine and the oversimplified understanding that more weight means greater loss in velocity that I am leaning towards 124gr. I am at a tossup between hornady XTP and speer gold dots. I'm thinking that for this type of hunt more penetration and less fragmentation would be better so which of those two would perform such a task better? in 44/45 my family seems to swear by XTPs but ATKs main pistol cal plant is right here in my area and feeding that local economy seems like a good enough idea so gentlemen...

... proceed with opening statements.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

alright I would like to thank everyone for their tips, hints, and comments. I appreciate everyone's opinions and understand the hesitance to use such a light cartridge. however would just like to point out that this isn't going to be the normal, go out and blast a deer at 250+ yards type of year that I normally have. I am actually attempting to challenge myself this year to make closer, cleaner, more precise shots and do so while giving myself a handicap. for instance just this weekend I took my first game animal using iron sights and the first using hunting loads that I developed myself. these types of challenges are what keeps hunting fresh for me and keeps them from just being an excuse to get out of the house. I know lots of people that have killed deer with 22lr but that doesn't mean I'm taking the ole 22/45 out for deer(not that it's legal in my state anyway) but it does make me want to become a better hunter. I don't own a 45 colt, 44 mag(anymore) or 357. my only short range limiting rifle is a 9mm carbine. by selecting a 9mm, I am forcing myself to step up my game and be better at being silent, being still and being better at stalking. I am limiting myself to shorter ranges meaning I have to become a better hunter and not the guy that blasts away and leaves a trail of wounded game in his wake.

now for the guys that are suggesting loads. I am starting to see a pattern of people using unique which is quite fortuitous for me as I share a reloading bench with a fellow that has lots of it. I have been having trouble deciding between a faster 124gr and slower 147gr and I think based on the assertion that the 147 will not gain as much velocity from carbine and the oversimplified understanding that more weight means greater loss in velocity that I am leaning towards 124gr. I am at a tossup between hornady FTX and speer gold dots. I'm thinking that for this type of hunt more penetration and less fragmentation would be better so which of those two would perform such a task better? in 44/45 my family seems to swear by FTXs but ATKs main pistol cal plant is right here in my area and feeding that local economy seems like a good enough idea so gentlemen...

... proceed with opening statements.

Hornady doesn't make a 9mm FTX. They do make a .357 FTX but its 140gr. I believe you meant a 124 XTP, the FTX has a soft polymer tip designed mainly for lever actions with tube magazines. I haven't used any 9mm XTPs but I like them in .45. Others have suggested the XTP in this thread, I probably wouldn't argue if you're dead set in using 9mm on deer. And don't worry about buying ATK products (unless you prefer them), Uncle Sam gives ATK MORE than enough business to keep operating.

 

[tahunua001]

yeah sorry about that, I meant XTPs, every time I go out and buy a box of FTX I find out that it wont fit in the magazine of any of the guns I've bought it for so I've given up on FTX completely. I'll edit the post to reflect XTP. I like speer deep curls in my elk loads for 300 WBY mag as I can load a little lighter and still get the same ballistics as weatherby factory ammo without the shoulder crushing, dummy ringing kick but that's about the extent of my experience with speer products. for my concealed carry 9mm ammo I actually use winchester black talons which I think would be perfect for what I want if I could get a little more velocity out of them but now that they are LEA only so it's kindof a bummer.

 

[judgecrater]

Clearly a lot of the 9mm advocates have never done much deer hunting. Be responsible and leave the 9mm at home or you will be joining the ranks of those that "blasts away and leaves a trail of wounded game in his wake."

 

[R.W.Dale]

Or perhaps we've matured enough as hunters to realize it doesn't take a 1500 yard capable rifle round to kill a 120 lb deer at ranges that you can span with a good wad of spit

 

[tahunua001]

alright guys can we please keep this civil? I really would like to get a bit more info before this gets locked. I know this is a controversial topic but there is no need for personal attacks...

 

[TheCracker]

Aim for the neck and any billet will do.

 

[TheCracker]

I will agree that 9mm isn't the best caliber for hunting but I kill deer every year with a bow so it should work with good shot placement. Just be prepared to track them if you don't neck or head shoot

 

[CZ9shooter]

I havent tried hunting with a 9.... yet. But I would probably handload an XTP. I would bet you'd get a little more penetration than some of the more modern bonded designs. I've gotten a 124gr to go 1250 fps from a pistol and a 115gr over 1500 though a carbine. Power Pistol is my powder of choice. I'd think that those velocities would be sufficient at a reasonable range.

 

[918v]

Speer 124gr JSP. It just like the Gold Dot.

 

[splattergun]

Or perhaps we've matured enough as hunters to realize it doesn't take a 1500 yard capable rifle round to kill a 120 lb deer at ranges that you can span with a good wad of spit

Idaho mule deer aren't like the 120 lb whitetails you may be used to. Idaho hunting is not typically done from a tree, either. The muley bucks around there can easily be 250 lbs or better, ( I have 2 on my wall) and the ranges are often 300 yards + . No spitball hunting there.

The OP said he wants to increase the hunting challenge, forcing himself to get closer, aim better. A 9mm carbine would certainly require it. Choose your load, and your shot, carefully my friend. I prefer Longshot when I'm not using W231.

 

[murf]

my rule-of-thumb is to keep all my shots on a dinner plate (eight inches). in your case, i still wouldn't go much past 50 yards on any shot (keep your velocity up). you should be able to do that with a carbine, no?

luck,

murf

 

[gamestalker]

If it's legal to use, I would say go for it, but do, as any ethical hunter would do, and take great care with shot placement. The 9mm has plenty of deer killing ability with the right bullet, powder, and from a properly sighted in weapon. If it were me, I would go with a 124 gr. XTP, and a hefty charge of Longshot to get it out there, with some authority.

GS