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Graffiti painter killed by homeowner - news story

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Nortonics, May 4, 2006.

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  1. Nortonics

    Nortonics Member

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    This is a horrible tragedy. Caught wind of this news story that happened yesterday locally here in the Minneapolis area at the local gun shop this morning. Don't get me wrong - I'm a firm believer in the right to carry and posses firearms for personal protection myself, but may it serve as a valuable reminder/lesson to us all that unless we feel a clear and present danger to ours or our families lives that firing upon a person for such an act is most certainly against the law. Obviously the shooting victim is the clear loser in this battle, but I'm certain that the homeowner/occupant that did the shooting had/has no clue what he's in for for the rest of his life, as well as when he inevitably meets his maker. Read on...

    Two killed in Minneapolis, one for painting graffiti

     
  2. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    I see no problem with the residents actions towards the tresspasser.
     
  3. DesertEagle613

    DesertEagle613 Member

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    A lot of missing info here. My first thought was that the taggers and the shooter could be from rival gangs
     
  4. Daniel T

    Daniel T Member

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    Ah, of course. The moral punishment for vandalism is death, right?

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    My friend in that neighborhood says it was plain vandalism, interrupted. He hopes it would deter other vandals, but doesn't have much faith in them learning from the experience of others. That neighborshood has had a lot of vandalism, burglaries and arson.
     
  6. Guntalk

    Guntalk Member

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    If you see no problem with this, then you need a serious attitude adjustment.

    If the inappropriateness of this reaction doesn't seem obvious to you, perhaps you would be more impressed with the concept of spending 20 years in jail because you shot someone spraying paint.

    Review of Basic Rules:

    1. Shoot only if in fear for your life.

    2. It will cost you $50,000 to pull the trigger, if everything goes right. If it goes wrong, it may cost most of your life in prison.

    (Me? It's not worth $50,000 to prevent spray painting, when that stuff can be removed for $20. It's a basic math problem.)

    If one agrees with those to precepts, shooting someone who offers no threat (assuming that was the case in this incident) would be not only illegal, but clearly immoral.
     
  7. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Then you really ought to brush up on your critical thinking skills. :scrutiny:
     
  8. saltydog452

    saltydog452 Member

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    I spent a little over 2 grand for a new cedar fence. I imagine if I saw someone destroying that 2 grand fence, I'd react as though it wasn't 'just a misdomener'. Its $2,000 out of my pocket, and I'd feel just the same as if I were robbed.

    salty.
     
  9. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    To add on to my previous post, I see no problem morally.

    Legally he is in for a serious raping. If I were on the jury, and the incident was:

    Scumbag came onto another mans land, and began vandalizing the place, homeowner comes out and shoots the SOB (whether or not a threat was posed to the owner), homeowner is charged.

    Under those circumstances, I would hold out as the lone vote for not-guilty, and either convince the others, or deadlock the thing. I see nothing wrong with such force. For those who ask if I would, only if threatened. Guntalk pretty much summed the reasons why.

    Daniel, the answer to your question is yes.

    Justin, my thinking is fine. I just have no heart at all for vermin. If you do, thats fine, it is a free country. Just don't let your bleeding heart make snide comments about anothers mental fortitude and prowess.
     
  10. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Same here. If it is not your property, don't mess around with it. :fire:
     
  11. Thefabulousfink

    Thefabulousfink Member

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    I am not "in the know", but this sounds like it could be gang-related to me.

    All parties involved are under the age of 21 (the shooter is 17).

    The two were "tagging" the shooters house.

    In gang mentality, it would be an insult that would require the "tagged" party to respond or lose "respect".


    And now you can see why most gang-bangers don't go to college, get high paying jobs, or grow old.

    Like I said, I don't have all the info, but this could be a likely reason.
     
  12. Guntalk

    Guntalk Member

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    >>I imagine if I saw someone destroying that 2 grand fence, I'd react as though it wasn't 'just a misdomener'.<<



    Who will you shoot if the wind blows it down?
     
  13. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    If a perp does this to a person's property...

    at night in Texas, he can legally be shot, you're protecting your property. You can't shoot them in the daylight though. For example, you have your 40,000 dollar custom Harley parked in your driveway and some perp spraypaints it.........what would you do? Call 911?.........chris3

    Edited correction.....
     
  14. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    There is undoubtedly a LOT of missing information here. You MUST assume the what is reported is less than correct or complete, plus it has a bias toward inflaming a story so as to sell newspapers.

    I doubt that it was merely a summary execution for the crime of vandalism. It could have been spun as a "hate crime" or gang warfare (regardless of the facts) just as well. Instead, the reporter chose to spin it as "out of control, gun-wielding teenager shoots and kills a grafitti artist."

    Remain skeptical.
     
  15. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    I hate vandals with a passion. They are worse than thieves in my book, at least thieves have some kind of reason for doing what they do, even if it is a bad one. I would have NO PROBLEM if the shooter had beat the unholy hell out of the vandal while awaiting the police that he called before leaving the building.

    This has every appearance of being a bad shoot in my opinion. There are a lot of missing facts though. It is quite possible that, when confronted, one of the vandals became violent and was shot in self defense. There dont appear to be any witnesses saying anything to the contrary as yet, so we will have to wait and see.

    Well Officer Reier, it only took me 5 seconds to come up with such a situation, and I am sure that nearly everyone reading this could come up with one too.
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    If evidence doesn't come out that the guys with the spray cans represented some sort of threat to the life of the guy with the gun this is a bad shoot. There is no way to justify the use of deadly force for this without a corresponding threat of deadly force having been made against they resident.
     
  17. atblis

    atblis Member

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    12 gauge with

    9 shot anybody?
     
  18. RS3RS

    RS3RS Member

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    Legally, not too smart to kill someone who is painting graffiti on your house. It SHOULD be legal though.
     
  19. Rezin

    Rezin Member

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    Kids are stupid. When I was 15, I too spray painted a few things. I even got busted for it by the police once.


    I should have been killed?
     
  20. Run&Shoot

    Run&Shoot Member

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    Threat to life not only justification to shooting

    A few people post on this topic have stated that risk to life is the only justification for responding with deadly force. That may be their personal opnion, or the law in their state. But in many states deadly force can be used to protect against serious bodily harm, too. Posiibly even to protect property.

    As others have said there is a lot of missing information with which to make a judgement at this point.

    When I was 17 I ran vandals/thiefs from our beach property with a shotgun. They sailed their boat up to our beac and then proceeded to harvest bucket s and buckets of our oysters. I at first confronted them verbally and they laughed. I retrieved the Mossberg 500 and told them to leave. They laughed again. Now there were about 4 adult males and four females. One of them jeerily said, "You're not going to shoot us for taking oysters!"

    I replied, "No, you're right, I won't shoot you. But I am counting to ten and then I will shred your pretty sail and then start putting holes in your hull." Eight adults spread across the beach vacated the premises in eaight seconds flat.

    What option does a home owner have to deter vandalism and property crime. If you paint over the grafitti they will be back the next day, and the next. If they are so bold as to trespass freely and vandalize your property, how do you know they won't be breaking into your house next or threatening your kids? Do you think the police are even going to respond the same day to a grafitti call?!

    While I am not sure that shooting the punks was the best idea in this current situation, I do understand the frustration of the home owners. With the undertanding that grafitti vandals won't stop just because you paint over their tags, what would you do to protect your property both from the tagging and possibly worse violations from increased boldness?
     
  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Shoot pictures of them and submit to the police as evidence.
     
  22. SlimeDog

    SlimeDog Member

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    Come on, is anyone here seriously advocating the use of deadly force against some kids spray-painting a wall? Hopefully, this is just your typical internet chutzpah. If it's not, I have to agree with Justin - this goes way beyond stupid and immoral.

    I guess all I can say to the "murder-the-vandals" crowd is that if YOU actually do it and the dead kid's dad comes and kills you, nobody will be shedding any tears. At least the dad has an established moral leg to stand on... "You shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth..."

    PS: I should also say that we don't know exactly what happened. It's entirely possible that this shooting was legitimate self-defense. Sadly, what is clear is that a number of folks here really do seem to think it's ok to kill somebody for damaging property.
     
  23. Daniel T

    Daniel T Member

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    SomeKid:

    That's very Christian of you.
     
  24. vynx

    vynx Member

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    PEPPER SPRAY ! ! ! ! !

    Heck even that is probably not "legal" in Cal.
     
  25. grimjaw

    grimjaw Member

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    Couldn't have called 911?

    Couldn't have called the neighbors and organized a group to confront the vandals? (Had that happen to me once, and they were on me in five minutes from two directions)

    Couldn't have videotaped it for police to review and prosecute later?

    Couldn't have taken photos?

    Could have had a gun concealed on person inside the doorway during all these events, so if vandal attempted violence, it could have been dealt with?

    Sounds to me like the 17-year old didn't have much better sense or self control than the vandal. But I don't have all the facts, so hard to say.

    jmm
     
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