Grumpy old man...

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I've seen so much bad and even dangerous advise handed out online that it's amazing. Maybe not on this forum but other venues.

How is the new guy supposed to separate the wheat from the chaff if they don't have a basic understanding of the subject. Asking questions anymore isn't about gaining knowledge. It's about getting an answer without having to do the work.

I’m only grumpy a few days out of the month. It’s not one of those days. Honey, the washing machine just broke, WE need to buy a new one. That means me, and so I go online and look to see “What’s the best washing machine out there”.... Of course those 6 gazillion reviews with 1 to 5 stars are so extremely helpful I don’t have to do any work. Sometimes I’m grumpy and sarcastic.

This is from an Grumpy Old Man ... heck I may be the Grumpy Old Man that the guy in the other thread was talking about...
Not sure if it’s your name or a reference, but we should just enlist the Borg, resistance is futile, and then everyone will know everyone else’s thoughts. Problem solved.
 
So I will agree got powders that are specifically made to clone another powder most likely have a very close burn rate curve. If that is the standard of your observations then your conclusion would be right. But there are a lot of powders that don't come even close to each other.

I want more data on these powders other than a burn rate number, which I don't know how that is derived. I mean, is it something someone dreams up, or are there standardized tests for "burn rate". And where is that data? And can different lots of the same powder have different burn rates, making the ranking by a single number, rather useless and misleading? The lack of information to the consumer has allowed the industry to sell powders, in different bottles, that were in fact the same powder. I am thinking of HP38/W231, H110/W296. These were the exact same powders but sold at different prices in different shaped and colored bottles. And I don't think these are atypical. I still have the Ken Warner article, on 45ACP powder testing where he "gives up" on HP38 but is totally ecstatic about W231. (Ken never published how many rounds he shot on targets,nor group size. He just ranked things by accurate, v.accurate. I will bet he was shooting three shot groups and making inferences on his flinches!) And I remember, looking in manuals, the same powder charge weights gave different pressures and velocities for HP 38/W231 and H110/W296. And I made decisions on which powder to buy based on that data. That data only reflected the differences in lots. These powders are blended, plus or minus 10% (per Alliant) to a some standard pressure curve. And yet, for decades there would be those recommending H110 for certain applications and just as vehemently claiming bad things about W296 in the same application!

I finally figured out that H110 and W296 were identical by shooting them in my 44 Magnum M1894. With the same bullets and same charge levels, velocities were almost identical. Since the powders looked the same, and shot the same, I suspected, they were the same!

The shooting community really lacks meaningful ways to compare powders. Most of us get our loads from anecdotal sources, that's primarily how I do it. I ask good shooters what they are using, and I more or less take a market survey, assuming the wisdom of crowds works, and copy. And if the powder works well, I will use it.
 
I want more data on these powders other than a burn rate number, which I don't know how that is derived. I mean, is it something someone dreams up, or are there standardized tests for "burn rate". And where is that data? And can different lots of the same powder have different burn rates, making the ranking by a single number, rather useless and misleading? The lack of information to the consumer has allowed the industry to sell powders, in different bottles, that were in fact the same powder. I am thinking of HP38/W231, H110/W296. These were the exact same powders but sold at different prices in different shaped and colored bottles. And I don't think these are atypical. I still have the Ken Warner article, on 45ACP powder testing where he "gives up" on HP38 but is totally ecstatic about W231. (Ken never published how many rounds he shot on targets,nor group size. He just ranked things by accurate, v.accurate. I will bet he was shooting three shot groups and making inferences on his flinches!) And I remember, looking in manuals, the same powder charge weights gave different pressures and velocities for HP 38/W231 and H110/W296. And I made decisions on which powder to buy based on that data. That data only reflected the differences in lots. These powders are blended, plus or minus 10% (per Alliant) to a some standard pressure curve. And yet, for decades there would be those recommending H110 for certain applications and just as vehemently claiming bad things about W296 in the same application!

I finally figured out that H110 and W296 were identical by shooting them in my 44 Magnum M1894. With the same bullets and same charge levels, velocities were almost identical. Since the powders looked the same, and shot the same, I suspected, they were the same!

The shooting community really lacks meaningful ways to compare powders. Most of us get our loads from anecdotal sources, that's primarily how I do it. I ask good shooters what they are using, and I more or less take a market survey, assuming the wisdom of crowds works, and copy. And if the powder works well, I will use it.
Well that's exactly the same frustration I have with fishing rods power and speed labels, so it's not my first time running into this. I will PM you a link that will be quite entertaining.
 
On suspecting differently labeled powders are the same; a story: Here on Phoenix, there is a tank farm in South PHX, by the railroad tracks. I have seen, years ago when I worked in the area, a Chevron tank truck pull up and fill up. Next truck, a Mobil, hooks up to the same spigot and fills up. Being an inquiring mind that wants to know, I asked about why different brands drew from the same "tit". Answer was, the mix was programmed by brand.....same basic fuel, diifferent addatives......you decide
 
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