Gun Auction Hi Jinks?

[rule303]

I'm sure shill bidding happens on occasion, but most sellers have better things to do than trying to make an extra $10 by dishonestly having someone run up an online auction. They would also be taking the chance of the shill bidder winning the auction, and having to pay the auction fees.
Auctions are strange things, and defy the rules of any other type of retail. I have had auctions with no bids where I had a buy it now price of say $300. Relisting the same item, for the same period of time drove the price up over $600.
Ask your questions before bidding, check out the sellers feedback, and put in a bid for the absolute most you are willing to spend. Do not even look at the auction until it's over, lest you be tempted to add "just another $10".

 

[HRnightmare]

This has been said before but I will reiterate that people use auto bidding programs. I have one specifically for ebay that you enter a bid and a max bid and when you want to bid on the item.

You can bid as close to 3 seconds before the auction ends which basically eliminates anyones chance of seeing your bid and bidding higher, assuming you had the highest bid. HOWEVER I have known people with multiple accounts on ebay that have bid on their own items. I even had a friend one day randomly bid up an item I was selling by about $20. I told him if he wants it he can have it and I will cancel the auction so I don't pay ebay fees for the sale. He explained that he was just helping me out.

Technically in some places it is a crime but obviously a PD is not going to investigate running up a $5 item to $6. Maybe if a big time seller was doing it and it resulted in huge additional profits.


If I want something on ebay or any other site I set an alarm for about 5 mins before the auction ends and hit refresh and refresh. I do NOT even bid until the last minute or less.

If you are bidding days before the auction ends and someone else bids also and you up your bid ALL you are doing is costing you $. Wait until last minute to decrease the back and forth big weiner contest of having your name listed as highest bidder.

 

[HRnightmare]

Which auction systems are you referring to? Auction houses like RIA, etc. or auction systems like Gun Broker, etc.?

I would say ANY OF THEM! If they require it be sent to a PO BOX better insure and track it heavily. I would also ask they provide a physicla address that a signature is required if it is expensive enough. I sell probably 100-150 items a month on ebay and 75%+ of the items that get lost in the mail were being sent to PO Boxes. Scammers notoriously use them because there is no real accountability and it is hard to track and verify.

 

[dogtown tom]

jeepnik First, I won't ever "bid" on a firearm. All these auctions have done is push prices for firearms well beyond a realistic price range.

Ever stop to think that YOU have unrealistic expectations of gun prices?

 

[.455_Hunter]

I know we all have to start somewhere, but seeing one or more (NR) or (1) review bidders on Gunbroker for an oddball gun is is pretty suspicious. It was pretty blatant on a CZ-83 in 7.65mm, with a couple legitimate bidders (me included) until about $500 - $600, then "dink" and "duff" took it to over $1100.

 

[PRM]

First, I won't ever "bid" on a firearm. All these auctions have done is push prices for firearms well beyond a realistic price range. - jeepnik

Can't agree on this one. I've bought quite a few guns off of Gunbroker and have had good results on most of them. One of my best buys was an Interarms Walther PPK/s, .32 ACP, in like new condition for $405. The seller didn't post good pics. There was only one bid against me. I've picked up a mint Colt Police Positive Special for $250, and a 2nd Generation Colt Navy for $300. None of these are even close to what a LGS would price them.

 

[barnbwt]

Does Gunbroker allow for you to see other's bid histories? It'd be comically easy to spot shill accounts in that case ("gee, this same guy with a very low feedback score has been around for a year and only bids on this other guy's stuff")

There is a contingent of GB-trollers out there who thrive (if you can call it that) on 'sniping' random strangers of good deals. It'd be like some loser cutting in line at the grocery store, grabbing your pack of steaks, and saying he'll offer 1$ more than what you were about to pay. Now, personally, I don't get it, since the time you spend working this ridiculous gambit is considerable for the payoff, but I guess it's a way to spend the time for those poor souls who can't/won't do much else. And each auction win is as much a 'victory' for these slobs as is a skilled gamer pwning a random noob in some online game; some small point of light in their dim day.

There are folks who sort by "soonest ending/no reserve", and scroll for auctions with a single bid, and are more or less guaranteed that the price for what they are looking at will be at or below "fair." If they make a nominally higher bid, they are almost certain to be capable of reselling the item at a slightly higher price point.

They aren't official shill bidders, since they rarely bid on a 'bad' deal to drive the price, and do seek to win, but they are like "value day-traders" in the stock market that always look to 'correct' those nagging price discrepancies that make a share worthy of serious investment interest. Part and parcel of capitalism.

I have, however, found a trick to combat this behavior, that has had about a 30% success rate (almost every bid I made before doing so would be contested at least once). It's as stupid as it is seemingly effective. You see, when you sort by 'soonest ending' and look for bid activity, a single bid will look the most enticing to a sniper (or shell bidder, for that matter). So make your first bid a few bids above minimum, and enter a few consecutive bids; they will show in a search, and appear as legitimate competition to anyone not looking at the actual price or bid history. They see a number higher than "1" in the bids column, assume there's already competition/sniping going on that they don't want to compete with, and move on. About 1/3 of my bids go uncontested since I've started doing this.

I figure it's as much for my benefit as for the addicted loser who won't be borrowing money to take home some random gun-widget he had no interest in to begin with

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"First, I won't ever "bid" on a firearm. All these auctions have done is push prices for firearms well beyond a realistic price range. - jeepnik"

If at all possible, I avoid bids. Not because it has some (illusionary) effect on prices at large, but because it is a waste of time. As I described, online/silent auctions favor those with the most time to waste, which is surely someone else besides me (even though I spend a lot of time on THR, I do have a real job, after all ). Engaging a bid, let alone knowingly engaging a competitive bid, is going to be either a waste of time or a crap-shoot (that's not a swear, mods, don't censure me).

It's an efficient way of obtaining a value for the seller, but is a woefully inept way for the buyer to acquire goods. Not only can my expected purchase be removed by a higher bid at any time, I still have to wait for the stupid auction to close! A far better use of my time, is to find someone listing a Buy Now auction at a reasonable price, and end the purchase process. No fretting, no checking, no updates, no drama (we seem to have forgotten that the novelty of eBay was the 'excitement' of real time online bidding in a time before Fantasy Football )

TCB

 

[mgmorden]

They try to pull all sorts of things there - you just have to sort out the good from the bad and you can still get good deals.

The thing that always REALLY annoys me is when they throw "NOT" with popular search terms in the title to try and show up in people's searches.

IE:

Hi-Point C9 9mm NOT Glock, Ruger, S&W, 1911

If someone searches for "1911" that will show up. Don't know why though. You're not going to get a buyer for your crap when they were specifically searching for something else, and if for whatever reason I AM searching for whatever the item actually is I'll ignore an item with a description like that out of sheer principle.

 

[hemiram]

Most of my really great deals have come on auctions where there is little bidding for some unknown reason. I have won about 10 auctions where it was basically me and maybe one other person bidding on a gun. What is odd is identical (As far as I can tell) guns listed at the same time had sometimes 10 or more bidders and the price went into the stupid zone.

The first one was my best deal on an auction, ever, a near mint Dan Wesson 715 6" heavy barreled .357, with 3 grips, wrench, some parts, in the original box, with sales receipt and paperwork. I was 1 of 2 bidders on it. I got it for $269, plus $15 shipping, and the $20 transfer fee. I kept wondering, "Why is it so cheap?". An identical appearing 715, without any accessories, box, etc, went for over $350, as had several others recently. I kept thinking I had missed something, and was tremendously relieved when my FFL called when it arrived, and said, "It looks really good!". It shot great and I hopefully will never have to sell it.

Then there are the ones that go off the deep end, price wise, and they are a mystery too. I've seen used guns go for the price or even higher, than a new one, time and time again. I don't get it. Auction fever is my best guess. I was looking for a Beretta 84, and found several that looked good, but not great, but all of them got within 10% of what a cheaper new one went for, and at that point, I would have just gone with a new one. But I waited a while, and one night there were over 2 dozen of them put up for a decent buy it now price, and I finally got a nice early one, in 95% condition for about $300. It has a couple of tiny nicks in it, but eats anything, and is another one I hope I keep till I die.

The only time I've seen what appears to be shill bidding was on a site auctioning used computers. I needed a laptop, and there was an auction for 13 off lease high end for the time laptops. About an hour into the auction, I was at about 10th place, and dropping. I decided I didn't want to bid any more on them, so I left. As I left, I was in 14th place, sure I didn't win one. So I go to work, and check my email, and there is, "You won!" from the auction site! I was #7 somehow after it was all done. How? I have no idea. The PC came by UPS a few days later, and was actually a really decent machine, it still works great, but being as old as it is, isn't useful for too much anymore. It's built like a tank compared to a lot of new ones. The price I paid, $385, was less than my max bid of $405, which was in #14 place a half hour before I was declared a winner. I have no idea how I ended up getting one.

 

[mgkdrgn]

This has been said before but I will reiterate that people use auto bidding programs.

This is why GunBroker has a "15 minute" rule, to prevent "sniping".

IF a bid is entered in the last 15 minutes of an auction, the clock is reset to 15 minutes. Hence, 15 minutes has to pass with NO BIDS for an auction to close. it's the on-line equivalent of the auctioneer saying "going once ... going twice ...."

 

[dogtown tom]

barnbwt Does Gunbroker allow for you to see other's bid histories?
No

It'd be comically easy to spot shill accounts in that case ("gee, this same guy with a very low feedback score has been around for a year and only bids on this other guy's stuff")
If you suspect shill bidding just tell GB:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/SupportFAQView.aspx?faqid=1114


There is a contingent of GB-trollers out there who thrive (if you can call it that) on 'sniping' random strangers of good deals.
It's called an auction for a reason. Someone who bids more than you isn't sniping, trolling or doing anything unethical.......they just place more value on the firearm than you.

If I listed a new, in box, unfired, 100% NRA Excellent condition S&W Registered Magnum with a $1 start and no reserve most would recognize that this is an auction worth bidding on.

So you barnbwt, bid $2,000.
No one else bids until there are twenty minutes left in the auction........and one bidder places a bid for $11,000.
He wins with a sales price of $2001.............is he a troll? A snipe?
No, he isn't. While he got a great deal, he did nothing unethical, illegal, immoral. Nothing about his bidding was sniping, trolling or deprived you of anything.

As you have no idea what his maximum bid was you really will never know how much he was prepared to pay.

Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why people have such a difficult time understanding how to win a stinking auction......all you have to do is outbid everone else. Do that and you'll never be sniped, trolled or lose out.



It'd be like some loser cutting in line at the grocery store, grabbing your pack of steaks, and saying he'll offer 1$ more than what you were about to pay. Now, personally, I don't get it, since the time you spend working this ridiculous gambit is considerable for the payoff, but I guess it's a way to spend the time for those poor souls who can't/won't do much else. And each auction win is as much a 'victory' for these slobs as is a skilled gamer pwning a random noob in some online game; some small point of light in their dim day.
That analogy doesn't come close to being accurate. I've yet to see a grocery store that auctions steaks. If you want to avoid sadness in the world of firearm auctions...........don't bid.

There are folks who sort by "soonest ending/no reserve", and scroll for auctions with a single bid, and are more or less guaranteed that the price for what they are looking at will be at or below "fair." If they make a nominally higher bid, they are almost certain to be capable of reselling the item at a slightly higher price point.
It's called capitalism.
It could also be called "engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license"......



I have, however, found a trick to combat this behavior, that has had about a 30% success rate (almost every bid I made before doing so would be contested at least once). It's as stupid as it is seemingly effective. You see, when you sort by 'soonest ending' and look for bid activity, a single bid will look the most enticing to a sniper (or shell bidder, for that matter). So make your first bid a few bids above minimum, and enter a few consecutive bids; they will show in a search, and appear as legitimate competition to anyone not looking at the actual price or bid history. They see a number higher than "1" in the bids column, assume there's already competition/sniping going on that they don't want to compete with, and move on. About 1/3 of my bids go uncontested since I've started doing this.
So..........you are one of those Gunbroker trolls I hear so much about? After all, this type of bidding (seeking to discourage others from bidding) is effectively keeping the seller from realizing the best sales price for his gun.

I figure it's as much for my benefit as for the addicted loser who won't be borrowing money to take home some random gun-widget he had no interest in to begin with
Sounds to me like you are exactly what you are complaining about.

 

[H&R Glock]

Dogtown is right. Shill bidding goes on with Ebay and GunTrader and there is nothing you can do about it. All it takes is a friend who will bid up your item. The only defense you have is finding the same item for sale again by the same party. Then you can nail the seller.

 

[Magnuumpwr]

This GunBroker auction 457192464 had a buy now of $600. For a fact this was the third relisting for this gun since I found it. There was a reserve of about $500 and once the reserve was met the buy now expired. After the reserve was reached by another person, we had a bid war to $645. I am sure he thought I was driving his bid, but in all honesty I just wanted the gun for my wife for Christmas. In hind sight I shouldn't have been so cheap and just used the buy now right off! It's not beyond belief that someone else could be interested in something that you are and they just need you to kick start them bidding.

 

[we are not amused]

As an attendee of many live auctions, the problem of shill bidders is always present, and I wouldn't expect it to different online.

The solution is to pick what you believe is a fair price, and don't go over it. Works for me.

 

[barnbwt]

"As you have no idea what his maximum bid was you really will never know how much he was prepared to pay."
When I do choose to place a second bid on occasion, I routinely discover the other person's highest bid was exactly one bid higher than my initial. I have no problems with someone winning or getting a good deal, or what have you; it's bidding in bad faith (i.e. not serious about the auction, and simply provoking a response from the other bidders out of idle curiosity or nefarious intent).

It's not like you can stop people from acting in bad faith, but you can criticize them for it (and you should). If you bid a penny higher on an auction in the hopes the guy who bid earlier will have to re-bid, or just because you want to see "you have the highest bid!" for a few minutes, it is worth being criticized for. It's like test driving cars you have no intention of buying; a waste of everyone's and your own time.

TCB

 

[dogtown tom]

barnbwt

"As you have no idea what his maximum bid was you really will never know how much he was prepared to pay."

When I do choose to place a second bid on occasion, I routinely discover the other person's highest bid was exactly one bid higher than my initial.

Then you didn't bid high enough to discourage him. I wonder what he thought when you upped YOUR bid by a few $$.

I have no problems with someone winning or getting a good deal, or what have you; it's bidding in bad faith

Other than shill bidding, there is no such thing as "bidding in bad faith".

(i.e. not serious about the auction, and simply provoking a response from the other bidders out of idle curiosity or nefarious intent).

What, pray tell is nefarious about outbidding someone?
How do you know he's not serious?
How do you know its idle curiosity?
Placing a bid is a contract.....and that bidder will have to follow through with payment.

It's not like you can stop people from acting in bad faith, but you can criticize them for it (and you should).
If you bid a penny higher on an auction in the hopes the guy who bid earlier will have to re-bid, or just because you want to see "you have the highest bid!" for a few minutes, it is worth being criticized for.

Yet YOU think it's perfectly fine to place numerous bids to discourage someone else from bidding.
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

It's like test driving cars you have no intention of buying; a waste of everyone's and your own time.

While it may aggravate you that someone else won the auction, or rised the final amount..............that's why its called an auction.


Complaining about the winning bidders habits is for losers. Think about that.
To avoid the drama of auctions:
1. Bid what you think the gun is worth......and then forget about it.
2. Bidding to be "The Winner".....is for losers. That's how you overpay.

 

[Magnuumpwr]

I didn't clarify in post #39, but I did win the gun. So his bidding was driven up only for him to lose.

 

[WardenWolf]

I've seen a few auctions where I'm certain there were shill bidders, and reported them. People bidding multiple times without exceeding your max bid, purely to drive the final price you will have to pay up.

I'm not about to reveal all my secrets for winning auctions, but I will tell you this: you should never bid early in an auction. Because in doing so, you are inflating the price early on and all future bids will be based on that inflated price, making the final price much likely to be higher and you likely to be outbid. Never show your hand in the beginning.

Have I ever used sniping software? Yes, on Ebay, for a brief period of time. But I'm so good at sniping manually that I stopped doing it.

 

[forward observer]

It's been mentioned several times, e.g., fixed ending times of EBay versus 15 minute rule of GB.com, but I wonder which people prefer?

Personally, I do not favor the GB.com method because it can drag an auction out, and does not really favor the potential buyer, but instead favors the seller and the eventual commission that the site gets. This is what competitive bidding is all about--potentially driving the price of an auctioned item up to way more than it is worth.

This tends to happen when 2 or more bidders get into that "I've got to win this or else" mode. Of course this happens on EBay also, but at least with a fixed ending time there is a limit. With sites like GB.com there is no limit to the potential stupidity of people who get into the "win at all costs" mode.

Of course there is the argument that the 15 minute rule eliminates sniping, but once you become aware of the tactic and how to do it yourself, it just becomes part of your skill set for winning auctions on Ebay and the like.

Opinions?

 

[LocoGringo]

It's been mentioned several times, e.g., fixed ending times of EBay versus 15 minute rule of GB.com, but I wonder which people prefer?

Personally, I do not favor the GB.com method because it can drag an auction out, and does not really favor the potential buyer, but instead favors the seller and the eventual commission that the site gets. This is what competitive bidding is all about--potentially driving the price of an auctioned item up to way more than it is worth.

This tends to happen when 2 or more bidders get into that "I've got to win this or else" mode. Of course this happens on EBay also, but at least with a fixed ending time there is a limit. With sites like GB.com there is no limit to the potential stupidity of people who get into the "win at all costs" mode.

Of course there is the argument that the 15 minute rule eliminates sniping, but once you become aware of the tactic and how to do it yourself, it just becomes part of your skill set for winning auctions on Ebay and the like.

Opinions?

I prefer the Gunbroker method because it also favors self-discipline and prevents a "luck of the draw" outcome. If you can't control yourself and get caught up in the moment of bidding and pay too much for an item...oh well, that's YOUR fault. However, if you're on Ebay and it comes down to the highest bid at the last second, there's no way to know if you might actually win the auction, especially if you were willing to pay more for the item than the other person. Too much like a lottery. So what if Gunbroker's method favors the seller and GB. It also favors the person who wants it more and has the most money. It's a true auction and a true marketplace.

 

[Wisco]

Sometimes I bid the most I'll pay for a given item. Other times I'll bid as high as I think I can without winning just to drive up the price. No one deserves a deal. Everyone should pay more.

 

[jerkface11]

Other times I'll bid as high as I think I can without winning just to drive up the price. No one deserves a deal. Everyone should pay more.

Well aren't you pleasant.

 

[mgkdrgn]

They try to pull all sorts of things there - you just have to sort out the good from the bad and you can still get good deals.

The thing that always REALLY annoys me is when they throw "NOT" with popular search terms in the title to try and show up in people's searches.

Then don't buy from those vendors. With literally 10's of thousands to choose from, I'm sure you can find a few legit ones.

Plus, you have the reviews to look at. If you have a vendor with several hundred + reviews, to a handful or less of bad, chances are they are not cheats.

 

[forward observer]

I prefer the Gunbroker method because it also favors self-discipline and prevents a "luck of the draw" outcome. If you can't control yourself and get caught up in the moment of bidding and pay too much for an item...oh well, that's YOUR fault. However, if you're on Ebay and it comes down to the highest bid at the last second, there's no way to know if you might actually win the auction, especially if you were willing to pay more for the item than the other person. Too much like a lottery. So what if Gunbroker's method favors the seller and GB. It also favors the person who wants it more and has the most money. It's a true auction and a true marketplace.

The very definition of self-discipline means that the discipline is derived from self and not the mechanics of auction. By that, I mean that if one truly has self-discipline, the methods used by the auction site should have no bearing.

However, for those with no or little self-discipline a site like EBay can limit their lack of good judgment. With GB.com these people lacking discipline are given too much extra time to continue to exhibit their lack of self control.

You get two or more such people in a auction and actual market value can go right out the door. I'm not talking about a rare one of a kind item, but something that is common with a fixed value established by multiple listings of the same make and model. These are usually also people with little auction experience as evidenced by their lack of previous transactions or feedback.

One of my favorite quotes from the late George Carlin: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

Cheers