gun dealers be careful about conversions

[Pancho]

I was just talking to a major gun dealer that is out of the reproduction cap and ball revolver business because he did a foolish thing and had the ATF come down on him. He sold a reproduction cap and ball pistol and a conversion cylinder to the same person shipped in the same box. The result is that we muzzleoaders have lost a good supplier. The law has been on the books since the 60's.

 

[Car Knocker]

The law has been on the books since the 60's.

What law would this be? Can't sell a C&B and a conversion cylinder to a person at the same time? Can't ship them together through the mails? Both?
Link to law?

 

[kingpin008]

I'd be interested to see if there was anything else involved with this incident that perhaps made it more serious, because although the ATF can be tough, this seems like more of an "accidental" breach of the law that could be handled with a warning and a fine than really throwing the book at the gentleman.

 

[Twud]

Here in Baltimore we've lost 2 good gun shops to the BATF's nit picking over records. Neither one could afford the legal battle and closed their doors. Big loss for us. It's faster for me to go to PA for what I need.

 

[jamesb]

The conversion cylinder allows it to fire modern metallic cartridges which then it falls under the laws governing non black powder and non C&R firearms.

 

[Bezoar]

the cylinder itself is a non permit required "firearm accessory". Combine it and a bp revolver, you have a modern firearm pursuant to all regulations created for your modern handgun firing metal cartridges.

Why doesnt anyone ever remember that when they go buy them? If your going to use a hazy set of laws to get a cartridge gun, at least have the decency to actually abide by all the laws you wish to dance with.

 

[ROMAK IV]

Ir is quite obvious and without question that the BATFE has a prgram in place, started when Clinton was president and Lloyd Bentsen was Treasury Secretary, to drastically reduce the number of FFL holders and therefore gun sales. However, this doesn't justify or excuse sloppiness in following the laws. We should then, as individuals interested in a continued tradition of the RKBA, should lobby for changes in some of these obscure and overly strict laws and regulations. We should also demand from our elected officials attention to the gun issue.

 

[RPCVYemen]

the cylinder itself is a non permit required "firearm accessory". Combine it and a bp revolver, you have a modern firearm pursuant to all regulations created for your modern handgun firing metal cartridges.

I always wondered how those were legal. I didn't even know that they existed until I saw them in a Midway catalogue. It seemed like a way to make a pretty unregulated weapon (black powder cap and ball) into a pretty regulated weapon. I was surprised that they were allowed to sell them.

Mike

 

[ArmedBear]

Here's how it works.

The gun is unregulated.
The cylinder is a gun part, not a receiver, so it's unregulated.

Federal regulations only cover what can cross state lines in commerce.

Now, once you put the things together, you are responsible for following local laws. For example, in some places, if you add an ejector rod and grind out a place to eject cartridges through the rear of the frame, legally, you have constructed a handgun. This is perfectly legal, however, if your locality (e.g. Clark County NV) requires registration, you are responsible for registering the newly-manufactured cartridge handgun. In some places, you may not need to do anything but drop in the cylinder for it be a cartridge handgun.

HOWEVER, the dealer is not selling a cartridge handgun if he sells the unregulated BP revolver to you, and, separately, sells a cylinder to you. You are then responsible for following any laws regarding the thing, including selling through an FFL across state lines. If he sells these things together, he is responsible, just like you would be.

 

[Onmilo]

There were probably three and possibly four boo boo's in this transaction.
1. Sending a handgun capable of chambering and firing modern production ammunition to an individual through the mail services.
2. Selling a firearm capable of chambering and firing modern production ammunition to an individual and not filling out the BATFE Form 4473.
3. Transacting a firearm sale of a weapon capable of chambering and firing modern production ammunition without allowing whatever Brady waiting period is on the books for his state to transpire.
4. The individual purchasing the handgun and cylinder combination was under the age of 21.

The "Capable of chambering and firing modern production ammunition" part and the age restriction are what have actually been on the books as a potential violations since the 1960s.

There would have been no violation if the Dealer had verified the age of the buyer, called and received a transaction approval number for the black powder revolver, and then sent the cartridge cylinder in a seperate package.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Here's how it works.

Thanks for the info.

Mike

 

[silverlance]

I didn't know that the conversion cylinders had to be shipped in a separate package. I've never sold one, either, but this is good to know.

So the ATF's opinion is that if the parts are in proximity then you are selling a handgun? interesting.

I have an 1858 remmie and a conversion cylinder. haven't shot it yet, but I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can "grind out a slot" to be able to remove the cartridges out from the back.

it is absolutely neat, however, to be able to own a cartridge firing handgun completely off the books.

question: what is the legal age for ownership of blackpowder handguns?