Gun lovers leaving Smith & Wesson for dead?

[splithoof]

^^^I wonder if that is because you are from Arizona Free State (my favorite place to visit, Gunsite), or as we call it "AFS".

 

[kimberkid]

I'm not a revolver guy but I traded for a Smith 360PD (.357) and have grown to like the feel of it. It's got a little holster wear as it's previous owner carried it and I've been thinking of making it one of my carry guns too ... It's got the lL, but as I understand it, you can pull the cover off the side and pull the locking pin out so there is no chance of it inadvertently engaging at an inopportune time.

 

[RustyShackelford]

S&W, sales....

Smith & Wesson has been thru tough times & made bad choices in the past(remember the Clinton era? ).
The huge upswing in sales & new customers would drop off at some point.
Smith & Wesson did get several high profile LE contracts in the last 4/5 years with the popular M&Ps. The LA County Sheriffs, a few state LE agencies & overseas buyers helped the sales.
It's rumored the LAPD might convert from Glocks & older 92F/92FS sidearms to new M&Ps in .40S&W, .45acp & 9x19mm for sworn officers/detectives.
The older 5900 series & 4506s will be turned in for M&Ps.
The cops with Glocks might keep them since Glock keeps parts/armorers/holsters/gear etc ready for PDs.
Id feel well armed with a M&P full size in .45acp or 9x19mm if I worked in Los Angeles.

 

[JohnFLand]

The lock is required for the guns to be sold in California.

*A* lock is required, but it does not have to be an internal lock.

 

[GoWolfpack]

*A* lock is required, but it does not have to be an internal lock.

We'll call it a combination of the CA requirements and being owned by Saf-T-Hammer, manufacturers of a product no one would want unless it was forced on them by the government.

 

[mnrivrat]

I have to believe that S&W knows enough about what their doing to be around for a long time. At least I hope that's true.

I bought almost exclusivly S&W wesson revolvers back when I was active in shooting. These last years they have gotten high priced enough to be out of my reach, but it seems everything I look at today was cheaper yesterday.

PS : My short thought is much to do about nothing.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Plus 1....

I agree with post #31.
It's like the recent media reports about Colt/Colt Defense.
They have serious financial problems but regained their accounting & business practices.
Huge corporations have ups & downs all the time.
A few do fail or go out of business but most know how to obtain capital or stay solvent until they can increase profits or be successful again.
Smith & Wesson is a well known brand. It won't be shut down or off the US firearm market anytime soon.

 

[ku4hx]

I remember way back when there were no seat belts in cars. I also remember the angry protests when they began to be standard with that pushing the car's cost up for what many thought was a useless device. Now all cars have seat belts, studies show they do save lives and I don't know anybody who doesn't wear them. At least not in my vehicle anyway.

I view integral locks on guns the same way I now view seat belts: can't buy "X" gun without it, none of mine have ever caused a problem, about as unsightly as seat belts and external safeties, user optional and who knows, one day it might just save a life. You just never know.

Guns are not like gasoline or electricity. You need to steadily buy gasoline and electricity; guns you don't. As a result, stocks of these "non essential" goods sometimes exceed demand and that's normal. Many gun makers are facing that situation now and they'll scale back production like they always have. One reason silos and warehouses were invented was to store "over production". I've always wondered what happened to all of last year's cars sitting on dealer lots when the new models came out.

As to S&W specifically, over inventory has its advantages. In the last six months or so I've gotten an M&P-15, three M&P-15 Sports, an M&P-1522 and a 629 all at really good prices. And according to the LGS we favor, I got the last Sport model and S&W sales have been brisk.

If S&W fails, S&W fails. It won't be the first time a gun I bought got orphaned and it'd likely not be the last. But Right now I'm more worried about my first mug of coffee this morning and are there enough beans in the bag for a full mug.

 

[Tirod]

Smith makes a lot more than a revolver with a lock you can choose to use, or not. They are competeing for the new Army Contract with the M&P - that final product, accepted or not, will go to the market. Even if it doesn't get selected, it will be regarded as the one that should have, which would easily outsell the few revolver fans shunning an internal lock.

Then there's the entire AR line, selling briskly even at current prices. Note carefully Ruger had to move into the DI market to compete, piston AR's are about as popular as revolvers with internal locks in some circles.

IIRC S&W uses their excess machining capacity to make transmission parts for Harley. We may not simply understand the figures we are seeing with the purchase of another company. Finance and economics isn't grasped by the average American, look at the Homeland Security contract for ammo and how that story went viral to the point the chicken littles were crying about "da gummint is buying up all the ammo to keep us from getting any!" Pure fantasy, it was barely enough to keep agents in enough ammo to practice.

S&W is a lot more than a company that makes a few revolvers with an internal lock. If that is the focus, then the observer is missing the big picture.

 

[texasgun]

I like my M&P Shield (simply because there is not much competition out in that category for 9mm) ... but the tool marks inside the slide... yikes. And that keeps me from buying a M&P when I can also find a Glock, Steyr or Co. MUCH MUCH better machining and build quality for ~$100 more....

 

[TRX]

giant, screaming "JM" tattoo in the side, of which I would NEVER want on a personal firearm. I equate it to having another man's name tattooed in some private place on your wife.

There are a number of products I've passed on due to the GIANT ADVERTISING on them. Taurus, and most makers of 1911 clones, I'm looking at you...

That's not even counting the car dealer who drilled holes in the trunk lid and riveted on a big metal sign with his dealership's name... AFTER we signed the contract. I maintained they'd vandalized the car, and they finally swapped trunk lids with another unvandalized one.

 

[george burns]

If they have financial problems in this gun rich climate, they surely don't know how to run their business.
How you could lose money when for the past few years they probably sold more guns than ever before is beyond me.
One thing is "Give the people what they want", I never understood why company's make limited production runs of their most sought after guns.
Remake the Ds and Python, for 6 hundred instead of 12.

 

[firedawg60]

Between the lock, the trigger on the M&Ps, and buying out a great muzzle loader company and basically destroying it, I will look elsewhere for my needs.

 

[george burns]

That's very true, we have all been complaining about those darn M&P triggers. They had to lose millions because of unhappy customers who either had to spend a few hundred bucks to fix them or dump the gun.
How much of a genius do you have to be to fix that first. Even the Pro triggers stink. Then to take the bodyguard and re brand it as if it was something new.
And their Pro series 1911's are overpriced and feel like a gun half the price, for 1000.00 bucks.
Their strong point "the old revolvers", or "classics" were sought after, so they released a few and tripled the price. They didn't release the Detective Special, or Python, which are probably 2 of the most sought after along with the Agent and several other small carry guns. Instead they come out with a CORE, which is only going to appeal to 1% of the shooters who use red dots on their competition guns. As vey few people are going to spend 1200 bucks on a M&P carry gun.
It must be less important to them what we like, I imagine they put all their eggs in the military and police contracts. But you know what happens when you lose one of your 2 or3 customers that you rely on to stay in business.
It's never a good idea to exclude the public.

 

[olafhardtB]

I think one of S&W's biggest competitors is S&W. I bought a pre M&P made in 1905, works great like it a lot. It was made the year after my father was born. I was born when he was 40. When my grand children are grown it will still be a perfectly suitable bed side blaster. I bought a couple of years ago for $250. I was looking for a k frame 38. I don't shoot +p in it, big deal. I could have bought a model 10 Classic for lots of money or a REAL classic for a little bit. I see M&P , k frames etc selling for less than $300 all the time. In this thread many have said they bought used over new. Guns are more durable than people and easier to fix.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A lot of people find the internal lock a reason not to buy a Smith. When I went looking for a new 357 a few months ago I bought a Ruger because of the IL. If the IL was not there I would have bought a S&W. Drop the lock.

Amen, brother.

I LOVE my GP100s, but truth be known if S&W didn't have the locks on all there guns I would probably own several of there 686s/N-frame .357s etc. I own two Smiths, one is a new production M642 without the IL, and the other is a 1999 dated Model 64 from just before the IL was added. They both rock but I won't be buying any Smiths with a lock.

I hear this often on all the gun forums, all of them. People DO NOT want the lock and I'd bet $$$ that if Smith and Wesson would just get rid of them, advertise the fact, they would see a significant boost in revolver sales. I know I'd buy one.

 

[burk]

That's very true, we have all been complaining about those darn M&P triggers. They had to lose millions because of unhappy customers who either had to spend a few hundred bucks to fix them or dump the gun.
How much of a genius do you have to be to fix that first. Even the Pro triggers stink. Then to take the bodyguard and re brand it as if it was something new.
And their Pro series 1911's are overpriced and feel like a gun half the price, for 1000.00 bucks.
Their strong point "the old revolvers", or "classics" were sought after, so they released a few and tripled the price. They didn't release the Detective Special, or Python, which are probably 2 of the most sought after along with the Agent and several other small carry guns. Instead they come out with a CORE, which is only going to appeal to 1% of the shooters who use red dots on their competition guns. As vey few people are going to spend 1200 bucks on a M&P carry gun.
It must be less important to them what we like, I imagine they put all their eggs in the military and police contracts. But you know what happens when you lose one of your 2 or3 customers that you rely on to stay in business.
It's never a good idea to exclude the public.

They didn't release the Detective Special or Pythons with their "classics" because they were Colt Revolvers, not S & W revolvers.

The reality is they have a competitive if middling line, although the own the big bore revolver market. My beef with them is there fit and finish is not up to the level of Glock, Sig or HK. But their products are functional, relatively reliable. Not my favorite company, but they are a long way from going out of business.

 

[orionengnr]

In general, I don't believe any significant portion of the market is "leaving" S&W. That is just more media hype.

Have some people abandoned new S&W revolvers over The Lock? Yes, and I am one of them...however, that happened years ago, and has no impact on today's market. And that would not stop me from buying a new S&W AR or 1911, if I were in the market.

--The promise of a Republican Senate in January has eased fears over new Federal laws, so "panic buying" has slowed..
--The average price of an AR has probably dropped nearly 50% over the last year and a half.
--And face it...a lot of people spent way too much money on guns during the last panic. Many buyers don't have anything left.

That is not an S&W thing, it is an industry thing.

 

[Cee Zee]

Now all cars have seat belts, studies show they do save lives and I don't know anybody who doesn't wear them.

And I still hate seat belts. It's not the idea or the function. It's the design and ergonomics. I constantly have a seat belt connector poking me in the back. I hate that. In the old days the connector was beside the seat. Now it sticks up inside the seat and there isn't one thing you can do to get rid of it. It made car seats about 200% less comfortable and for what? They could make them work without that.

Same goes for the lock on S&W revolvers. Other guns have locks that are barely noticeable. I have a lock on a Taurus pistol and if you didn't know it was there you would never notice it. I saw the key for it earlier tonight and laughed because I haven't noticed the hole in the side of that pistol in years. It isn't in the way. It isn't ugly. It couldn't have cost much because I bought the gun new and it wasn't expensive.

S&W could do a better job of putting a lock on their revolvers. And I could use a seat belt connector that doesn't torture me constantly. The main complaint about S&W locks is that they sometimes lock on their own or otherwise malfunction. There's no reason that should ever happen. I don't like it that any company caved to the government but given the gun grabber mental cases walking around I am not surprised that a company, which primarily wants to make money, plays along with the grabbers to an extent. I don't like locks but S&W seems to have done a particularly poor job of it just like those seat belt connectors that poke me in the back.

 

[P226]

Only older S&W revolver's for me . While I hate the "lock" it's really the price of the new guns that stop me from buying them. In the last 3 years I have picked up a ,28-2,27-2,19-3 and a 19-5. The 28-2 was $500 plus tax the others were all under $450 out the door and they are all 98% condition . Now I have not seen a new S&W revolver($799) in a year or so their web site prices are $850 to $1100 ! I can't see anyone buying a new 27 with the lock at those prices when you can get a older one with better blueing for $450 to $700.


Edit
All k frames with number models are safe with + p .38's. it was the full power 125 gr .357 magnums that flame cut the k frames,you are safe useing 158 .357 magnums.

 

[jmorris]

Not suprized at the content, considering the source.

 

[fastbolt]

Gun lovers leaving Smith & Wesson for dead?

No. Not at all.

 

[Schwing]

I keep reading these articles about gun sales being down by 50% etc. What they fail to mention is that gun sales nearly doubled during the last panic. Really, they are just settling back to where they were prior to it.

I am not worried about S&W's future.

 

[george burns]

My bad Burk, I was thinking of Colt and got it backwards, although they both seem to be in the same financial predicament of not giving the public what they want. Ehy not re-issue those guns that everyone wants.
My first carry was a DS, and I doubt I paid $300 for it back in 1973.It was stolen in robbery and I never replaced it, mainly because they are asking ridiculous prices for used models. I sure am not going to spend a thousand dollars for nostalgia. But Smith is doing the same thing with their Revolvers. They are nowhere as good as the originals and 4 times the price.
Just make a 5 shot 357 that weighs more than a piece of cardboard with a 1 1/2 inch barrel and a nice pair of grips on it and sell a million of them. Even the models still available aren't ever in stock. Meanwhile M&P auto's are everyware, and they come out with an almost identical twin in the shield. The 9c is really a shield with more capacity and no grip choices. Is that the best they could do?. I think that revolvers will make a strong comeback once folks figure out that they don't need 15 rounds in their carry gun, that they will likely never use.
Maybe a less expensive lighter 686, with tritium sights. Like the Night Guard line only cheaper . Perhaps a 44,357, and 38+p and 9mm & 40.
I still love the Model 19, which many guys miss, you really can't find them anymore without spending a fortune. Now that was a heck of a gun. That used to be the favorite of Florida , and many other Sheriffs prior to the Hi-Cap pistols hit town. I still would rather have a well tuned 357, than a 40 caliber, because I know the darn thing is going to be over before I run out of ammo, and a spare pocket 9 for backup would work out fine. Plus the revolver will almost always work or you can use it for a hammer.

 

[Jason_W]

If they win the bid to replace the Beretta M92 as the Army's sidearm, they'll be fine.