'Gun porn' should be on the top shelf say animal rights groups (UK)
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230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
<rant>
That Godwin's Law stuff is pure BS and inhibits people from legitimately examining the parallels between current events and the events in the first half of the last century.
It's one thing to invoke "Godwin's Law" when somebody loosely accuses a politician or some organization of Nazi-ism --usually accompanied by a reference to jackboots --but another to stifle discussion and comparison with respect to the techniques used by Germany to create a voluntary totalitarian State.
To me, it's sort of like how I feel about "McCarthyism." His excesses led us to the point where even mentioning Communism is outre. Thus, we now have euphemisms to describe essentially the same philosphy, such as "progressivism" and "socialism."
Bullcrap. Let's start calling a Commie a Commie and a Nazi a Nazi again.
There. I said it, and I ain't takin' it back.
</rant>
Terry, 230RN
That Godwin's Law stuff is pure BS and inhibits people from legitimately examining the parallels between current events and the events in the first half of the last century.
It's one thing to invoke "Godwin's Law" when somebody loosely accuses a politician or some organization of Nazi-ism --usually accompanied by a reference to jackboots --but another to stifle discussion and comparison with respect to the techniques used by Germany to create a voluntary totalitarian State.
To me, it's sort of like how I feel about "McCarthyism." His excesses led us to the point where even mentioning Communism is outre. Thus, we now have euphemisms to describe essentially the same philosphy, such as "progressivism" and "socialism."
Bullcrap. Let's start calling a Commie a Commie and a Nazi a Nazi again.
There. I said it, and I ain't takin' it back.
</rant>
Terry, 230RN
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Well, anyway - back to the topic.
Quite a few years ago, I talked to an editor of a major US gun magazine that had a UK edition. He said that he had to take the off the cover the usual US - Big blammo gun, the ultimate man stopper as it wasn't allowed there.
I also bought some UK gun magazines when they still shot IPSC or IDPA. In columns discussing the matches, they made fun of our use of humanoid targets as showing blood lust and savagery.
Quite a few years ago, I talked to an editor of a major US gun magazine that had a UK edition. He said that he had to take the off the cover the usual US - Big blammo gun, the ultimate man stopper as it wasn't allowed there.
I also bought some UK gun magazines when they still shot IPSC or IDPA. In columns discussing the matches, they made fun of our use of humanoid targets as showing blood lust and savagery.
JustinJ
Member
Do you mean to imply that civilian owned weapons would play any type of factor in a WWIII scenario?
Um, no. Those are three separate words with three separate meanings. The fact that uninformed people who are ignorant of their meanings use them at every opportunity to describe people they disagree with does not mean they are euphemisms of each other. Classifying all political views different from one's own as nazi or communist is intellectually lazy at best. The real shame is that this is our current level of political discourse.
Cosmoline
Member
Hey I've gone vegetarian now but I still shoot a lot. I'm not really seeing the connection between firearms and animal killing. Sure there's some hunting, but two facts remain absolutely undeniable:
--The VAST majority of animal slaughter is performed with no firearms
--The VAST majority of shooting is not at animals but targets
--The VAST majority of animal slaughter is performed with no firearms
--The VAST majority of shooting is not at animals but targets
silicosys4
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Funny...The UK historically has problems with their beef supply, Mad Cow and such....must be a PITA to deal with if your entire population is has to eat beef because they can't hunt, hunting is such a sin against nature..... But Mad Cow is a disease wholly caused by mismanagement of domestic livestock, usually caused by feeding scrap beef back to other cattle. Funny that I, as a hunter, don't have to worry about Mad Cow when I'm eating poor bambi, even though hunting is wrong and unnatural, but eating a cow you've never seen that was slaughtered while dying of something funky that "thank god isn't contagious to humans..."
toejamm
Member
JustinJ,
I am not defending anyone or fighting anyone else's battles here but I am curious. Are you trying to imply that civilian owned weapons WOULD NOT play a factor in a WWIII scenario?
Not trying to hi-jack the thread here, but.......
I know and understand the nuances of communisim, socialisim and progressivisim. They all have roots and evolutions of their own. Are you trying to imply that there aren't some overwhelming similarities between the three?
I'll give you the fact that they are used interchangeably too often at times, but it is not too difficult to paint with a broad brush when discussing the three.
I will also give you the fact that the intellectually lazy use the "Nazi" term with nauseating frequency.
I am not defending anyone or fighting anyone else's battles here but I am curious. Are you trying to imply that civilian owned weapons WOULD NOT play a factor in a WWIII scenario?
Not trying to hi-jack the thread here, but.......
I know and understand the nuances of communisim, socialisim and progressivisim. They all have roots and evolutions of their own. Are you trying to imply that there aren't some overwhelming similarities between the three?
I'll give you the fact that they are used interchangeably too often at times, but it is not too difficult to paint with a broad brush when discussing the three.
I will also give you the fact that the intellectually lazy use the "Nazi" term with nauseating frequency.
sidibear
Member
We have a socialism government and they are under the impression that if no one has a gun then no one will need one as we will all be equal and nice to each other.
Once they wake up to the fact that criminals don't pay attention to the rules we might get somewhere.
Once they wake up to the fact that criminals don't pay attention to the rules we might get somewhere.
JustinJ
Member
Imply it? No, i'm saying it outright. The idea that privately owned firearms would be a factor in modern warfare is "Red Dawn" hollywood fantasy. Partisans can certainly have an impact in modern warfare but only when supplied by an actual military with modern military weapons.
There are similarities between all forms of social, economic and political ideologies. That still does not make them in any way shape or form interchangeable terms. And equating progressivism to communism is incredibly absurd.
toejamm
Member
Really? You might want to explain that to those folks fighting over in the middle eastern countries. I don't think they are aware of that fact.
And don't go getting all "Red Dawn" on me.
I did not say they were the same thing. I said there were "Overwhelming similarities." I'd appreciate it if you would NOT put words in my mouth.
I don't want this thread to get lost or be locked by the Mod. so I will try to stick to the OP and the concern he (And Sidibear in #33) has. The Nanny-State in the Brittan falsely claims that the shooting sports/lobby is damaging to the wildlife and the emotional development of children. Sidibear is concerned that criminals don't pay attention to the rules and will have guns and the general public will not, and therefore be defenseless.
Her Majesty's Constitutional Monachy (AKA European Socialist) government will have to be persuaded to change the laws if the citizens wish to use firearms for personal (And perhaps civil) defense.
The concept of not owning a firearm for defensive and/or hunting purposes seems very odd to many Americans.
I, for one, wish you all the best in your efforts to KBA.
Reviews of genocide in many instances indicate that the victims didn't have means to defend themselves. Not just the Holocaust but across the world.
Genocides choose victims that cannot or will not resist. Clear historical precedents if you study the issue.
That is slightly different from an armed population in a full scale military conflict but the days of WWII and D-days are probably passed. We see more localized urban conflicts and partisan battles.
Irregular forces gave us fits in Iraq and Afghanistan after the classic battles were over. Where did most of the casualities come from in Iraq? Saddam distributed small arms and explosives across the country beside relying on his regular military.
Genocides choose victims that cannot or will not resist. Clear historical precedents if you study the issue.
That is slightly different from an armed population in a full scale military conflict but the days of WWII and D-days are probably passed. We see more localized urban conflicts and partisan battles.
Irregular forces gave us fits in Iraq and Afghanistan after the classic battles were over. Where did most of the casualities come from in Iraq? Saddam distributed small arms and explosives across the country beside relying on his regular military.
JustinJ
Member
You mean the ones using military weapons, mortars and IED's largely created from artillery shells and other ordinance? The ones who receive logistical support from the governments of other nations such as Iran? The ones who have failed to accomplish anything significant militarily?
Lets also not forget that these countries are fighting a foreign invader with a lot of self imposed limitations. World War III or an internal civil war would be a whole other ball game.
What you said is:
His excesses led us to the point where even mentioning Communism is outre. Thus, we now have euphemisms to describe essentially the same philosphy, such as "progressivism" and "socialism."
I don't believe i put anything in your mouth.
How does insurgents fighting with military issued weapons, including explosives and artillery, support the notion that privately owned weapons, such as those held by American citizens, could be a factor in a large scale war?
In regards to the OP, i personally believe hunting should be done for food. While i recognize and can appreciate the need for pest control there also exists a mentality that shooting predatory animals is a "sport" and is often done for entertainment as opposed to an actual need. In many cases there are viable alternatives to protect livestock from predatory animals. English fox hunts are a prime example of how hunting is done for entertainment as opposed to a legitimate need. Many shooting magazines do glorify such behavior and i have no doubt exposure to such material can influence a child's attitudes towards animals. I do however strongly believe in freedom of speech and can't condone limiting it for the purpose of pursuing a political agenda.
Nushif
Member
Oddly relevant to the thread something just occured to me.
A magazine about sex is well ... sex porn, no? And sex is bad, so we hide it.
A magazine about guns is ... gun porn! guns are bad, so we hide them , right?
A magazine about knitting is ... knitting ... porn? Obsessive behavior in relation to an everyday activity? It's a sign of mental illness! Quick hide it!
the point is that by very nature a magazine dedicated to any particular subject is porn. Car porn, knitting porn, interior design porn, you name it! It's droolworthy pictures and in depth articles.
What I think people fear in reality is the same as people who get angry when someone speaks a language they don't know. They fear *not knowing,* and if I don't know things, why should anyone else know all this potentially evil spirited stuff?
A magazine about sex is well ... sex porn, no? And sex is bad, so we hide it.
A magazine about guns is ... gun porn! guns are bad, so we hide them , right?
A magazine about knitting is ... knitting ... porn? Obsessive behavior in relation to an everyday activity? It's a sign of mental illness! Quick hide it!
the point is that by very nature a magazine dedicated to any particular subject is porn. Car porn, knitting porn, interior design porn, you name it! It's droolworthy pictures and in depth articles.
What I think people fear in reality is the same as people who get angry when someone speaks a language they don't know. They fear *not knowing,* and if I don't know things, why should anyone else know all this potentially evil spirited stuff?
BADUNAME37
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How about magazines about the culinary arts, Cooking, Chef dishes prepared? Should they also be on the top shelf, or hidden behind the counter?
How many photos of meat from all kinds of animals are in those magazines?
How many photos of meat from all kinds of animals are in those magazines?
You will find that many American citizens in the hundreds of thousands own semiauto long arms that exceed in capacity the Garand or M1 carbine.
Right near Austin, you can see up to 60 people on a weekend engaging in shooting them.
If such horror came to the US - IEDs would be produced very quickly.
Hopefully the private ownership of a large stock of reasonable long arms precludes a government tyranny from the nuts of the right or left.
All shooting sports are variants that descended from lethal applications.
IDPA and IPSC and PPC and Cowboy - shooting people
Skeet - killing birdies
Silhouette - killing little animals
Bullseye and long distance rifle - precision killing, sniping (derived from snipes and shooting snipes - birdies).
Intellectually, one could argue that all shooting sports prime aggressive ideation and are bad and evil and cause children to become monsters. Yep.
Unfortunately, the literature of media violence, game violence, gun sports, etc. priming aggression doesn't show that conclusive link with any utility in violence prediction.
To get to the chase - I prefer not to be totally helpless if we faced societal disruption, genocide or whatever may occur. One's apriori choice could be to give up as we are helpless. Not mine.
BTW - 55% of GOP households and 40% of Democratic households own firearms. Given that installed base, the existing armed forces or police could not deal with an armed populace of such magnitude. Does one assume that artillery exists to even dent all the major cities of the US or the planes? Search every small town and rural road. Justin also assumes that the armed forces, in totality, would go along with a tyranny and fight seriously against masses of armed civilians.
It isn't the Wermacht vs. the Polish Ghetto. BTW, I think the British won, way back when, I see the Queen coming down the street right now.
Right near Austin, you can see up to 60 people on a weekend engaging in shooting them.
If such horror came to the US - IEDs would be produced very quickly.
Hopefully the private ownership of a large stock of reasonable long arms precludes a government tyranny from the nuts of the right or left.
All shooting sports are variants that descended from lethal applications.
IDPA and IPSC and PPC and Cowboy - shooting people
Skeet - killing birdies
Silhouette - killing little animals
Bullseye and long distance rifle - precision killing, sniping (derived from snipes and shooting snipes - birdies).
Intellectually, one could argue that all shooting sports prime aggressive ideation and are bad and evil and cause children to become monsters. Yep.
Unfortunately, the literature of media violence, game violence, gun sports, etc. priming aggression doesn't show that conclusive link with any utility in violence prediction.
To get to the chase - I prefer not to be totally helpless if we faced societal disruption, genocide or whatever may occur. One's apriori choice could be to give up as we are helpless. Not mine.
BTW - 55% of GOP households and 40% of Democratic households own firearms. Given that installed base, the existing armed forces or police could not deal with an armed populace of such magnitude. Does one assume that artillery exists to even dent all the major cities of the US or the planes? Search every small town and rural road. Justin also assumes that the armed forces, in totality, would go along with a tyranny and fight seriously against masses of armed civilians.
It isn't the Wermacht vs. the Polish Ghetto. BTW, I think the British won, way back when, I see the Queen coming down the street right now.
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toejamm
Member
JustinJ,
Get your posts straight. I didn't write that. So yes, you are putting words in my mouth.........AGAIN.
YOU are the one who said:
Get your posts straight. I didn't write that. So yes, you are putting words in my mouth.........AGAIN.
YOU are the one who said:
A round from a civilian owned AK47 or home made IED can kill soldiers as well as military issued ordnance. Therefore the answer is YES civilian owned weapons CAN play a factor. One life or many lives can be taken by a civilian. The overall significance (Of that life or lives) to a war is a matter of debate.
Cosmoline
Member
Well they've been doing pretty well all across North Africa, and remain dominant in much of sub-Saharan Africa. Not to mention a hundred little insurgencies all over the globe. The idea that the appearance of a tank ends all civilian opposition has zero support in reality. As anyone on this forum should know, there's no magical difference between full auto and semi. Nor is there anything magical about "military issued" equipment.
A bullet is a bullet. Unless you don't have anything to shoot it with.
Other than take out multiple well-armed and well-equipped governments from Libya to Egypt. With Syria soon to follow. And the ones in Iraq... well let's not forget our military left there in the dead of night at full speed. So SOMEONE was still worried about those impotent snipers.
Certaindeaf
member
Isn't "top shelf" britspeak for best? It's funny and expected that someone would speak such of something they wanted buried/disappeared.
JustinJ
Member
My mistake. However, there are not overwhelming similarities between progressevism and communism. That i do find absurd. Yes, there are many similarities between communism and some forms of socialism. So what? There are also very profound similarities between US society, today and the past, and socialism and communism. They are still very distinct and separate systems.
Homemade explosives are a completely separate topic from privately owned firearms and making effective ones is more involved than most realize. The vast majority of casualties in modern war of developed nations are from bombs and artillery. If you define being a minor nuisance as a significant factor in war then i suppose privately owned weapons could play a role but it would be minor. Insurgencies and partisans fighting a modern militarily have been pathetically ineffective until military support was received. The capability to destroy aircraft and armor is critical and not possible with rifles.
They've been effective only after military support was received. It has nothing to do with select fire weapons. Its about anti-aircraft weapons, anti-armor weapons, communications that can't be easily traced, artillery, etc. Rifles simply do not win wars in modern times.
The decision to leave Iraq at the time we did was made long before it actually happened. If you think sniper fire was a factor of our withdrawal you are mistaken.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Sure they do.
How in the heck do you think that insurgents get the materiel needed for the IEDs and such? In many cases, they get it the old fashioned way - they steal it from more formal military structures via small unit action, armed only with small arms.
JustinJ
Member
No they don't.
They get amounts of any significance from governments or militaries sympathetic to their cause. It has happened over and over again. Rebels get slaughtered until military aid comes.
silicosys4
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Small arms don't win wars.
Insurgents "liberating" materials with small arms is NOT a "war". It is an action taken by a small group, and they are performing small actions that are an irritation to the powers that be, in order to orchestrate a larger, more effective action....which will take the EXPLOSIVES or other ordnance they just liberated to accomplish.
I remember reading a conversation between an older, wiser sarge, and a green officer....the officer was watching a demonstration of machine gun fire, and commented to the sarge that all they would need was more machine guns and the war would be won. The sarge looked at him and said something to the effect of "the machine guns are just to keep them from moving around, and charging, so our ARTILLERY can chop them up. Artillery wins wars, son."
Small arms don't mean a whole lot if every combatant has body armor.
Insurgents "liberating" materials with small arms is NOT a "war". It is an action taken by a small group, and they are performing small actions that are an irritation to the powers that be, in order to orchestrate a larger, more effective action....which will take the EXPLOSIVES or other ordnance they just liberated to accomplish.
I remember reading a conversation between an older, wiser sarge, and a green officer....the officer was watching a demonstration of machine gun fire, and commented to the sarge that all they would need was more machine guns and the war would be won. The sarge looked at him and said something to the effect of "the machine guns are just to keep them from moving around, and charging, so our ARTILLERY can chop them up. Artillery wins wars, son."
Small arms don't mean a whole lot if every combatant has body armor.
toejamm
Member
So what? That's all you got?
Large, all powerful central government. Control of the country's economy. Less liberty and freedom for the individual. THAT'S what all three have in common. But so what.
They're your words. You can keep changing your mind and moving the target if you wish. It seems obvious that is what you are doing.
As for the OP, I am glad to see that our friends in this thread, from other side of the pond, realize that the animal rights crowd will make any arguement and every arguement to limit their and our freedoms. I encourage you folks from the UK to continue to stay connected with THR and other forums from the USA, and to suggest to your friends to do the same.
"One man with a gun can control 100 men without one" - Vladimir Lenin
Texan Scott
Member
Nushif, I only buy knitting magazines for the articles... and it would be unwise to poke fun at oversized hairy Scotsmen with a fetish for tying knots in things.
Amazing how fast these posts roll downhill.
Useless, ignorant nannystatism at its finest. Keep fighting!
Amazing how fast these posts roll downhill.
Useless, ignorant nannystatism at its finest. Keep fighting!
Grousefeather
Member
UK
My ancestor's left England in 1632. I am proud of my heritage, but I am so glad I don't live there. I can't imagine the mindset of being that far out and actually having an impact on the culture. In reality, when they express these idea's, no one should be paying any attention to them.
My ancestor's left England in 1632. I am proud of my heritage, but I am so glad I don't live there. I can't imagine the mindset of being that far out and actually having an impact on the culture. In reality, when they express these idea's, no one should be paying any attention to them.
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