Gun Prices - Are They Justified?

[Orion8472]

These discussions come up from time to time, and I think what drives these discussions is that someone wants to buy a gun that they simply can't afford, and this is how they complain about it. I know I'm certainly guilty of this. I wanted a Ruger Redhawk for years and years. I balked at the $650 price. I told myself, the gun isn't worth $650. It should be more like $500. (Which, coincidentally was the price of a Taurus Tracker 44, but there was no way I was going to own a Taurus, which I felt should have been $300.) The next year, I balked at the $700 price tag on the Ruger. Then the $750. Then the $800. Finally, I caved and bought one at $850, complaining the whole time about how I was being ripped off. I think they're over a thousand now.

For me, I can totally afford it....but the cost of the mini 1911 Browning is just excessive.

My brother has a Ruger Redhawk in 44mag. Nice gun.

 

[Orion8472]

You know, I've been eyeing the .380 version for my wife and yes I mentally choke on that price for a poly framed downsized 1911. If it were metal framed, I'd probably have already jumped on it. So, that means an S&W .380 EZ with manual safety levers (effectively equal to the Browning) sure is more wallet friendly at $454.00.

To be honest,....that was a lot of the reason for this thread. I was considering one...but damn that price for aluminum alloy. I was gonna trade in an LCP II in 22lr that I don't really care for, and after tax, it would be just under $600.

 

[SterlingBullet]

I believe that most gun prices today provide an exceptional value. They are extremely sophisticated machined mechanical devices that we expect to operate perfectly every time they are used, over the next forty to one hundreds years, in 10,000 to 500,000 controlled chemical explosions during its lifetime. Much of it in harsher weather conditions.
Most of the modern guns today live up to those expectations at an average $500 price point. Most of those guns retain much of their original purchase price when sold at a later date.
There will always be guns that are overpriced based on poor quality and reliability. There will always be guns that are overpriced based on perceived reputation or collectible value.
All guns are priceless in that they serve as our defense against evil criminals that would do us immediate harm and evil rulers that intend to control or enslave ordinary people and their children for generations.
The only complaint we should have about gun prices is our own personal inability to finance the gun purchases we desire.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

For me, I can totally afford it....but the cost of the mini 1911 Browning is just excessive.

My brother has a Ruger Redhawk in 44mag. Nice gun.

Yeah, very nice. And after I bought it, I kicked myself for waiting three years because of the "insane" price of $650 (or whatever it was) and then end up paying $850 (or whatever it was.)

 

[silicosys4]

Never meant to say you did. My point was that your idea that, just because something is a POS, it should have no value is in line with communist economic thinking.



Not funny at all. It's value isn't in it's quality. It's value is in the demand for its historical provenance. People aren't buying them for their precision craftsmanship; they're buying them to own a piece of history from a dark time in humanity when the light of liberty had been extinguished in Europe, and America was doing all it could to supply those left willing to fight with anything that would help them. The value of a Liberator pistol is the cautionary tale the object's history tells-not in it's production and/or material costs.

It's not unlike when I bought a CMP 1911 for $1080. People here, and at the range, berated me for wasting money on a junky, clunky, wore out pistol. They "schooled" me on what a fool I was not to buy "insert name of their preferred modern 1911 here" pistol. I've probably only fired a single box of ammo through it. I didn't buy it to shoot it. (And I doubt anyone is buying Liberators to shoot them, either.)



You and I obviously perceive value differently-especially when it comes to items with historical provenance. That's the beauty of the free market. We can have different perceptions of value. If more people agreed with you, then Liberator pistols would be like twenty bucks, but apparently enough people find value in them to support a significantly higher value.



Communism is an economic system, and, as I stated earlier, your thoughts on the Liberator are in line with Communist economic theory. I'm not saying your a Communist-far from it. I'm just drawing lines and connecting dots to illustrate a point in a discussion.

To reiterate and clarify. Your thoughts are that, because the Liberator is a POS, requiring little in production or material costs, it should be of lesser value than something requiring more production and material costs. That is essentially the Communist way of setting market values.

Interesting. I didn't know that participating in a free market means one is thinking like a communist.

 

[rust collector]

The issue is the price put on firearms. We live in an open or free market system in which the producer prices consumer goods and the consumer votes with their $$. The value of some items is enhanced by short supply, historical significance, uniqueness, and effective marketing efforts.

There is no need for this to take on political overtones. And please remember that "value" isn't limited to $$. There is a degree of satisfaction that comes from developing a limited immunity to the constant barrage of marketing, and living within one's means.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

There is no need for this to take on political overtones.

It wasn't political.

 

[T.R.]

I recently handled a Browning Buck Mark 22LR pistol that is made in USA. Fit and finish was superb and it appeared to be one that would last for a generation or two. Price was quoted to me at $525. which seemed justified. But I didn't buy it because my HVAC system just needed a new blower motor. So it goes. - TR

 

[Hookeye]

If you want it, buy it.
Chances are it won't be cheaper if you wait.

Life aint about money, its about enjoyment.
The more I spend on a rig, the more I'm gonna shoot it

 

[D.B. Cooper]

If you want it, buy it.
Chances are it won't be cheaper if you wait.

Life aint about money, its about enjoyment.
The more I spend on a rig, the more I'm gonna shoot it

Hear! Hear!

I totally agree. It will likely never be cheaper than it is today. As I mentioned earlier, I learned that with my Redhawk. As for shooting the more expensive guns more, yeah. I've got like three...maybe four thousands rounds of 44 Special through that thing. (And you couldn't tell it if I didn't tell you. As tight and as accurate as the first day. If anything, the trigger has gotten better over time.)

 

[Ignition Override]

Yes—-upon further reflection.

Being able to sell guns in the current market has provided most of the cash for changing/ new gun Interests.

Two sides of the same coin, somewhat.

My ‘new’ PTR-91, Imbel FAL and M1A were not terribly higher than they cost in 2019, compared to some other gun types.

 

[PzGren]

... We live in an open or free market system in which the producer prices consumer goods and the consumer votes with their $$. ...

Somehow, I find the GCA of 1968 which restricts imports and the ban of most Chinese and Russian firearm imports not as the result of an open or free market system - no matter how often that empty phrase is repeated.

 

[I6turbo]

1. Is there a gun/rifle that you think the price isn't/wasn't justified?

Even back as recently as 3 - 10 years ago when most guns that interest me were significantly lower in price, and our dollars were worth much more (the combination of which makes today's guns way more costly), there was only a minuscule portion of guns that I thought were worth the price to me. I bought several of those. These days, with all of life's wants and needs costing on average about 25% more than they did three years ago, and most guns costing more as well, I very rarely see a gun that I think is worth me spending my money on (even though I could afford them if I wanted to).

2. Is there a gun/rifle that you think the price is/was quite justified, and you would have given more money for?

With the experience of having owned about 100 guns in my lifetime, and fired an additional hundred or two, I have "refined" my collection to a group of guns that I really like. I would be willing to pay current market price for several of them if I didn't already have them. Current market price for most guns that I have is typically about 2x what I paid for mine, so I guess that means I think the prices were quite justified. Some of what I have that I would be willing to buy at today's prices are:

• Browning International Medalist
• Winchester 52 (USA made version)
  
• BRNO Models 2, 4, or 5, or their near-identical modern descendants, the CZ 452 family
• No-dash Smith & Wesson 586/686 revolver
  
• CZ 75-based handguns (still a bargain at today's prices, IMO)
  
• Certain AR-10/AR-15 rifles
• CZ 527 and 550 rifles (though these have increased so much in resale value in the past 3 or 4 years that I might struggle with the decision)

Some of the CZ handguns and the AR-platform guns are still current production, albeit decades-old designs. All of the others went out of production at some point from about 5 years ago to about 70 years ago. There aren't many current-production guns that interest me. Also, if there's a gun that I'm interested in, particularly shotguns and rifles, I'm much more likely to be interested in the earlier models than the later production guns after cost-cutting and mass-scale, highly automated production techniques had often set in.

 

[rust collector]

Somehow, I find the GCA of 1968 which restricts imports and the ban of most Chinese and Russian firearm imports not as the result of an open or free market system - no matter how often that empty phrase is repeated.

I agree with you. Free market is a wonderful concept, but neither big business nor big government can pass up the opportunity to restrict and to tax commerce (at an increasing level until pushback occurs, then again after the heat blows over).

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Somehow, I find the GCA of 1968 which restricts imports and the ban of most Chinese and Russian firearm imports not as the result of an open or free market system - no matter how often that empty phrase is repeated.

Wellllllll. I'm actually not familiar with the reason for the Chi-Com and Soviet import ban, especially considering how much other stuff we by from China, but nations have long banned or tariffed (taxed) imported goods to protect domestic manufacturers (and, by extension, domestic workers). One could certainly argue that this is not free market, but nowhere is there a pure form of any economic system; every system is a mix of various other systems.

...neither big business nor big government can pass up the opportunity to restrict and to tax commerce...

Which is why we can't really have a pure laissez-faire economy anymore than we can have a pure planned economy. For example: if we had zero gun regulation, guns would likely be plentiful and cheap, but every gangbanger in LA would have a gun. Oh wait. Nevermind.

 

[AlexanderA]

Somehow, I find the GCA of 1968 which restricts imports and the ban of most Chinese and Russian firearm imports not as the result of an open or free market system - no matter how often that empty phrase is repeated.

Exactly. Of all the sectors of the American economy, the gun market is the least "open and free." It's full of all kinds of distorting effects.

 

[PzGren]

Wellllllll. I'm actually not familiar with the reason for the Chi-Com and Soviet import ban, especially considering how much other stuff we by from China, but nations have long banned or tariffed (taxed) imported goods to protect domestic manufacturers (and, by extension, domestic workers). One could certainly argue that this is not free market, but nowhere is there a pure form of any economic system; every system is a mix of various other systems.
....

You could have googled the import ban that affects Chinese and Russian firearms and ammunition. You would have found the reasons behind the ban. It has little to do with protecting the U.S. market from unfair trade practices but was a purely political decision in the china-trade for somebody to push their own agenda. It would be a better start to have exact reciprocity with other countries and have the same tariffs they impose on us. If you import a Mercedes to the U.S. you pay 3.2% import duty plus a 0.3% or so extra fee but if you import a Chevy into Germany it is taxed 10.2% plus 19% sales tax - up front. Fair trade by the standard of our duly elected and well paid political representatives!

Besides of that and back to the thread, demand and supply still dictate the price and demand is not only created by scarcity but also good reputation. Somehow the Grendel never took off as well as the equally odd H&K VP70 .

Norinco - Wikipedia
27 CFR § 447.52 | eRegulations (atf.gov)

 

[Sniper66]

If you are talking about used guns, I've always thought it was funny that a Liberator is over $1k nowadays.
Literally the cheapest POS disposable gun possible..

If you are talking about new guns, labor prices have a lot to do with things, but its true there are a lot of companies that import guns made in places where labor rates are low and try to get away remarketing it under their own umbrella. Yea I'm talking to you, Springfield.

In the end the market sets the value of an object, regardless if you feel the total production costs are fairly represented in the price.

A gun is ALWAYS worth what the buyer is willing to spend. That is the LAW of supply and demand. It not a suggestion or a hunch. It has always been true and will continue to be.

 

[citizenconn]

Also- do most viewers want 1990-level paychecks?

Viewers?
I know I'm an outlier, but I would be happy for my mid to late 90s paycheck before the dot com bubble burst. I worked for the largest privately owned electronics supplier in the US and the owner was great about sharing his wealth with dedicated employees. Even the guys working out in the warehouse received Christmas bonuses around $7000 after they had been there for just a few years. Then the bubble caught up to industry, the owner died and Warren Buffett bought the company all within the span of a few months. I can't complain about my severance package but it was nice to work for a guy who was close to be being a billionaire who was down to earth and valued his employees, and I sure don't mean Warren Buffett.

To answer the OPs question, I would love to have a SCAR 17 & 20 but no way do I think it is worth what they are asking compared to what I can build a comparable rifle for.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You could have googled the import ban that affects Chinese and Russian firearms and ammunition.

If it were important for me to know, I would have.

You would have found the reasons behind the ban. It has little to do with protecting the U.S. market from unfair trade practices but was a purely political decision in the china-trade for somebody to push their own agenda.

I figured it was something like that.

 

[dweis]

I think the cost of most guns is reasonable and has been so over years except than shortages happen like during Covid. I recently bought. Ruger Security 380 with an extra 15 round magazine. Cost me $375, and will last for decades. On the other hand I bought a 12 ounce cup if coffee at Dunkin Donuts, and it cost $139. It lasts for about an hour. If I do that every day of the year it comes out to $507 a year or $5,070 a decade. I like my pistol. I’ll give up the coffee.

 

[tarosean]

Compare a hi-point to a Glock? Yes, it makes sense that the Glock is more expensive. But what makes a USP twice the price of a Glock? What makes a FN Scar 6x the price of a M&P 15? Do you really get what you pay for with those?

Why does a Mercedes cost more than a Kia? Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price varies but your not comparing apples to apples.
What is the cheapest piston driven AR type rifle out there? (SCAR vs. M&P in your example)

In the end it is up to you to decide.

 

[Orion8472]

So,....something I hadn't noticed before, about the Black Label model of the Browning 1911-22 that I didn't know until today........and it makes me see it as way over priced, so won't be getting it after all.
Turns out, the frame for this specific model....is polymer. Had it been the aluminum alloy, I would get it at that price. But not now.

 

[FL-NC]

I have really become fond of some of the ugly mass produced current production rifles in the $400-$500 range that shoot like a laser. Like my 2 Ruger American rifles, or my Mossberg MVP- or the Savage axis I shot yesterday.

 

[Thomasss]

The free market uses supply and demand to set prices. The reason a Liberator is $1k is because there are so few surviving examples, yet, there are more people wanting them than there are available examples.

I go back to another thread on gun shows and say they are all a bunch of greedy b*******. Prices are sky high. Now that I got that off my chest. I can say the reasons are due to political correctness, Covid panic buying, some overly priced inflation. A good example is a guy selling an unfired Python in the box for $10,000. He says its from the custom shop therefore it worth every penny. Not according to the Blue Book of Gun Values though. Now that price hasn't moved a penny since 2016 at every gun show he displays. If he were truthful and correct he should be raising that price by at least 20% due to inflation alone. Now Python prices, in general, are coming down. Panic buying is coming down. Inflation is slowing down and Colt reintroduced Pythons. His price has stayed the same. The free market possibly does set the price. There is a lot of lookers, but no one is buying.