Gun safe or security cameras?

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Creature

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While researching the purchase of a new gun safe, I have often wondered whether I would be better served by purchasing a moderately priced gun safe and a high definition video surveillance system ... over just purchasing a more expensive ("higher security") gun safe. This story and accompanying video has me thinking that I would be better served by the former. Especially in terms of providing evidence in a home invasion-type scenario.

Thoughts?

http://www.wvec.com/news/local/Home-video-catches-safe-burglars-in-the-act-119059779.html
 
security is layers, what point is a safe if a crack head has all day to pop it open in the comfort of you home (no security system)

what point is a video system if you don't also have an alarm

it's layers, and starts at your mouth (don't tell what you have)
and from the street.
 
Years ago when two big guerillas were hauling my new superwagerdine gun safe into my house I had a strange thought. What`s to stop some innocent looking character to walk up to me politely and stick a snub nose up my nostril and tell me ``open your gunsafe, dummy!``?

go for a cheaper safe if tha`t`s al you can afford for now and put the rest of the dough towards cameras, lights, etc. Later on you can move the cheap safe to the garage for tools or something.
 
Had the safe in the video been bolted down the perps likely wouldn't have taken it.
Get a video system, they're cheap now days.
 
What`s to stop some innocent looking character to walk up to me politely and stick a snub nose up my nostril and tell me ``open your gunsafe, dummy!``?
Nothing but your awareness and a ccw. The safe is to stop thieves when you are not there. If they get the drop on you when you are home, they will get everything they want.
 
That certainly shows why it's a good idea to bolt your safes. RSC's, and lock boxes down to something solid.
 
I guess it all depends on what you are ttrying to accomplish. Do you want to prevent them from taking your stuff or catch them after they do
 
OK

First off what ever you are thinking of buying most likely isn't a SAFE
those are UL rated from class B and up.

LOOK UP RSC, Residential Security Container
Most are simply painted up wall lockers with some sheetrock and a OK lock.
most can be popped in less than 5 minutes with hand tools

A safe cost more, some VERY good RSC's cost much less than some larger, name brand, poorly built sheet metal boxes... And that, well, check out what CB900 and some of the other lock smiths have to say on here about 'gun safes'.
 
You can get a decent video surveillance system for a moderate price. High def will not be reasonable. There is a tremendous price difference in this line of stuff. You can get a pretty good dvr for $1500 range. For high def $6000-$12000 just for the dvr.
 
Unfortunately I have some small experience here.

The safe will keep your stuff in place.

An alarm system will hopefully get someone to respond in time.

Security cameras will help figure out who broke in, even if they get away.

If they get away, likely the perps will be caught, especially if you have cameras. By the time they get caught, they will have sold your stuff already. Trust me. You won't get it back and the perps won't do much time for burglary.

My personal view is that a really serious safe and a monitored security system pretty well has you covered.

Also, make sure to keep jewelry and other valuables in a safe. Laptops should be in there or on a security cable.
 
This story and accompanying video has me thinking that I would be better served by the former. Especially in terms of providing evidence in a home invasion-type scenario.
I quite agree. I already have a pretty good RSC, and am definitely buying a video surveilance system for the new house.
 
You can get a decent video surveillance system for a moderate price. High def will not be reasonable. There is a tremendous price difference in this line of stuff. You can get a pretty good dvr for $1500 range. For high def $6000-$12000 just for the dvr.

Yep. Have only set one of these up, but was around $5k for covering every reasonable entrance (all doors/windows on first floor + those within semi-reasonable access second floor, I think 6 cameras in all). It is a one time cost though.
 
I would get insurance on the safe and contents. Doesn't matter what happens, you're covered.
 
Yea rtr rtr, that price for a 6 camera system should be a pretty good setup. And u are right, it will last you a while. And you other guys are right too. You need more than cameras. I've helped customers record incidents on their dvr to give to police and many times they are arrested but whatever they stole is long gone.
 
Unless there is someone watching them 24/7/365, that is also in a position to do something about what they see, they are not "security" cameras, but "surveillance" camera. They are only helpful in, maybe, catching the people that stole your guns. They provide no "security".
 
Guns and more, I'm not following. If your safe was breached and cleaned out you would not want to have them on video doing it? In all likely hood they would be caught. These types of people usually have mug shots on file down at the PD.
 
I did residential security for years before the army. I have also done some commercial, including jewelry stores and one class III dealer, and a huge AAA rated security system with two vaults, etc., etc. Made a bank look like child's play. So I am kind of familiar with this. Security comes in layers, yes, but what layers to get first? Unless you are loaded or very handy, this will be an ongoing process for some time.

For your alarm, hardwire everything you can. Only use wireless as a last resort or as some type of addition. NEVER use a keypad/panel combo, and especially a wireless one. Probably the most important thing about alarms is there really are no good shortcuts. Use in your home the same stuff used in jewelry stores (they have to have the right stuff or their insurance will drop them).

Monitored alarms are great, but if it doesn't have cell (or preferably radio) communications, it won't work except as a local alarm that will notify your neighbors. This may be okay, depending on your situation (not advised, though a local alarm could be your first step). The smaller local alarm companies that do their own monitoring will offer this, but will cost twice as much as say, an ADT or Security Link dealer, who can only offer land line or internet monitoring. All decent burglars, even drunk ones, know to disconnect the phone line first. Cutting it, if installed properly and connected to a land line, will set off the siren. Disconnecting it will not (you can make it do this, but anytime the phone goes down the alarm will go off). So an alarm that is only on a land line with an exposed dmark (that plastic box on the side of your house where the line comes in at) is essentially just a local alarm.

That brings me to sirens. They should be minimum 30 watt horns that warble; interior horns don't cut it either. Use them too if you want, but exterior first and foremost, and if you use the interior, get the "noisy cricket" types and try to install it centrally or in the kitchen area (more reverb with hard floors). These interior horns actually hurt your ears and can make you pee your pants if you aren't expecting it. Some places won't let you use exterior sirens anymore because of proliferation of alarms by home owners that purchased them from dealers that installed them improperly (and some is just statistics --there are more false alarms than real ones). Do not the car alarm type that everyone ignores. The ones that talk are okay, and you can get them in both English and Spanish (one announcement after the other) but not really necessary. Bells are better, but more expensive. They make noise for a greater distance than you would realize. Strobes are handy, but not necessary, unless you can't have the exterior siren, then I'd say get it. They are most efficient when you have close neighbors.

Passive IR motion detectors are a must in every room. Don't use pet motions unless you need one in a shut off room for the dog or what have you. They just aren't as sensitive. There are ultrasonic and microwave, but not worth the price unless you are expecting Bond --James Bond. Glass break sensors are okay, but take a backseat to IR's. It does no good to have an alarm and have an unprotected area, as I could just break into that room and dismantle the rest from there. I wouldn't care too much about your framing or drywall either as speed is of the essence. I've seen them come through the floor and attic, right next to the panel, in an unprotected hallway --then they have all the time to disconnect the system.

Programming the system. These alarms will do much more than you realize. Make sure you get the most out of it by asking questions and reading up on your system. Dealers usually use a standard template and won't change the data entry unless requested. Since most customers don't know what to ask, this rarely happens and they get the template. Oh yeah, and don't use 1234 as a code, and don't use a duress code (code used to turn off alarm and report a hostage situation) that you will forget. For the duress code, use something stupid, or at least easy to recall with a pistol to your head. I've seen a SWAT team deployed in under a minute to a residence in Memphis TN. The daughter of the home owner didn't think what I put in would work. She did when the entry team came though, and called to tell me! Of course a duress code will do you no good if the alarm is not on, so use it when inside, say at night. I know where the burglary happens from the bedroom, so I know where to clear first too.

Which brings me to alarm timers. You don't need five minutes to enter and exit the house. If your installer did his job and programmed it right, it might not be of consequence, provided the entry time isn't too long. But I just use the minimum to get by. Your alarm should be fully armed a few steps out the door. It should go off when you get home no more than 15 seconds in the door (you should have one keypad right next to your entry/exit and preferably one in the bedroom). Note this does leave room for a false alarm, so practice, practice, practice (you've heard this before, right?).

Now to dogs. They are okay. But they are suckers for food, and fall for the old phenobarbital in the peanut butter everytime, unless VERY well trained. And just hope the bad guy, who I will assure you can find some drug that will do the deed, doesn't OD your best friend. Don't depend on them for alarms either. They aren't foolproof, and some sleep quite well. Especially on a double dose of phenobarbital. Think of your dog as something you want to protect, rather than something that protects you. The dog can't roam inside anyway with the alarm set, not one big enough to do harm anyway, because if they don't set off your motion detectors, then the bad guy won't either, will he?

Note that not all alarm systems are created equal. They are similar, but not equal. For instance, a used Radionics panel from 1979 is better than a DSC 1500 from the 90's. In fact, it is one of the best systems out there, and Bosch bought them out and repairs that old stuff to this day. Higher end modern systems are equivalent to the old Radionics. Very good, and equal to the old Radionics, provided you stay away from the lower end models. You can get a good deal on a used panel and keypad online, but you will need someone that can program these panels. They use a special programmer, part of why they are so good (and a pain --if it is a pain in the neck for the installer to defeat, it will work against most bad guys).

Advertise the system. Forget the silent alarm and unadvertised approach unless you really know what you are doing and are setting a specific trap, ie, you've been broken into before and are trying to catch someone in particular. The yard sign is a good thing. Put it right next to the "Posted: No Trespassing" sign if you live on land or off the street, or between that and the camera (real or fake) that is next to your locked gate (yes, a fake camera with a battery powered light mounted out of reach is useful and cheap --seen check cashing places use them in the 90's, although that wasn't a smart application). The no trespassing sign is good since it makes it a misdemeanor to come onto your property, and when you get your cameras later on, just email the cops and prosecuter the picture of the guy casing your lot and --presto! Instant conviction once identified, and a warning that whatever you have isn't worth it. This advertises that you put the effort into protecting your property and that your neighbor who swears by the pit bull is the better opportunity.

Cameras. They have come a long way. You can get a box kit from Costco that is miles better than the good stuff I used to install 15 years ago. I've seen it work wonders, even in jewelry store applications. Not sure if the Costco kit can connect to the alarm system, but it isn't necessary since you don't need a time lapse recorder anymore. And wherever you put the recorder, make sure it is hidden. I won't go more in depth about cameras since this kit will cover 99% of you out there. I will say that cameras take a back seat to the alarm (usually).

That covers some basics. I could write a book on it, but this should suffice to get one going past the crap that the dealer's sales guy will tell you. I need dinner anyways.

If you have specific questions, I would be happy to answer them. Just send a message. But whatever you do, keep your firearms locked up in a steel locker at a minimum and start working on that security system.
 
Strykervet, you are mostly right. The wireless stuff has come a long way in the last 5 years. It is just as dependable as hardwired devices. Sometimes more so bc each device has a tamper switch. I recommend glassbreaks and motions bc your motions are generally not turned on at night. I like to put in a maximum entry time of 20 seconds. If you get a keychain remote you can disarm the alarm from outside anyway. If you have parts of your house that are rarely used you can have the alarm partitioned so that that part stays armed all the time unless you turn it off. Microwave motions are rare these days with the exception of large commercial applications. I highly recommend cell radios. Then you have nothing outside to be cut.98% of all alarms responded to are false alarms.95% of all burglars come in the back door.65% of all buglaries are between 9am & 3:30pm. I've put in over 16,000 of these now and roughly half of them I unfortunately install after the break in. Don't wait too long.
 
This was pretty interesting and brings up again for me from my experiences with home burglars,which I have been the victim of three times in the house I am now typing this from.
From my experience these guys just break in the easiest way they can and go for what's readily available and in this case once they came upon the safe they settled for it and let the flat screen T.V. and anything else that was just as easy to lift but...Safe= Money,jewelery,etc.
Did you notice when perp number two entered the bedroom he tried to shield his face as he obviously could see some sort of camera.
And then when these two stumble onto the home owners hidden safe we can easily tell was not anchored down.
My belief is if it was anchored down even that lightweight safe might have held out against these guys as they had no tools and the butter knife in the kitchen drawer aint going to get into it.
Also it was light enough to physically carry away.
So as has been mentioned it's defense in depth.
Dogs,burglar bars on windows and doors,alarm system with alarm company stickers on every window and door for those who can read to know what's going to soon be happening when they break in,a decent safe well placed and bolted down no matter what it weighs,and lastly the cameras.
Hey even a hundred dollar game cam will take pictures with pretty good resolution and they are easily disguised.
I'm tired of these types of people helping themselves to my stuff and have made it hard for them.
Still possible of course but next door will be easier.
 
That's horrible heeler. It's the lowest acumen of the earth that does this sort of thing. I think they should start cutting off their hands or something when they catch them. Just the thought of somebody kicking in your door and just taking your stuff that you worked hard for is enough to make you wanna get someone to drive your car off, and have tv, computer, and game system boxes,on the street and sit inside and wait on them. The alarm system is imperative. If you have a loud outside horn sounding off they won't be hanging around. Even putting locks on interior doors is a big help. Anything to slow them down along with the alarm will greatly increase your chances of them just running away. I would personally put some type of bar across any doors not used as an entry door if I had been hit that many times. The same with the Windows. And stop and think about your friends. Roughly 50% of all break ins is by someone that has been in your house before.
 
Well I hear that a lot that most people know the perps that break into their home but that was not my case at all.
These were just thieves.
I dont have a lot of friends but the one's I do are solid citizens.
According to the police in my neighborhood alone which consists of a land mass that is maybe 80 acres last September there was 15 homes burglarized.
Mine was not one of them and it's my belief that it was my setup of defense in depth.
Home burglaries in Houston are a never ending plague.
 
what good is a set of cameras when you can make an effective mask out of a sock? buy a good safe, most home invaders probably didnt bring the arc welder.

@leadcounsel, if you're home, you should be defending your safe with a firearm not opening it for the criminals.
 
Strykervet, you are mostly right. The wireless stuff has come a long way in the last 5 years. It is just as dependable as hardwired devices. Sometimes more so bc each device has a tamper switch. I recommend glassbreaks and motions bc your motions are generally not turned on at night. I like to put in a maximum entry time of 20 seconds. If you get a keychain remote you can disarm the alarm from outside anyway. If you have parts of your house that are rarely used you can have the alarm partitioned so that that part stays armed all the time unless you turn it off. Microwave motions are rare these days with the exception of large commercial applications. I highly recommend cell radios. Then you have nothing outside to be cut.98% of all alarms responded to are false alarms.95% of all burglars come in the back door.65% of all buglaries are between 9am & 3:30pm. I've put in over 16,000 of these now and roughly half of them I unfortunately install after the break in. Don't wait too long.
Yeah, I've installed tens of thousands too. But I can't anymore due to service related injuries, which sucks because I really enjoyed it. I installed for years before 2000, joined the army in spring 2001 (graduated one or two days from infantry AIT at Ft. Benning after 9-11 --I'll always remember that day!). I dabbled in it for a year or so a few years ago and ended up in the hospital.

Anyway, I would like to clarify that hardwire is always superior to wireless for many reasons (wireless in my mind only exists to fill in gaps where wire CANNOT be run for a real good reason). Hardwire systems can be tampered too. The better motion detectors, glassbreaks, etc., all have mulitple terminals for n/c, n/o, as well as tamper. In addition to this, the n/o tamper circuit can be ran parallel with an EOL installed AT the last device (well, always install the EOL at the end of any wire run regardless). If a programming option, double EOL's can be used (well, you can make your own DEOL's if you know how). Addressable devices with a tamper circuit are really great too, and invaluable for large commercial jobs or jobs with long runs. Now the hardwire installation cannot be tampered with, including the removal a device cover (since devices with terminal switches for tampers usually have a tamper switch built in). But this is why it is important to get good equipment; dealers usually sell cheaper equipment, and only offer landline or cellular communications, while local high-end security firms do things different --such as provide radio service in addition to landline and cellular, which if provided in your area, is highly more efficient. A well established radio network connected to properly installed and programmed system is nearly impossible to violate. I've worked for both dealers that specialized in residential, and a high-end company that did large commercial, banks, lots of jewelry stores, UL systems, etc. I thought I knew a lot before I went to work there, and even though I had a jouneyman's license and tons of experience, they taught me a lot. All I taught them was how to do stellar residential jobs with invisble wiring in hard applications.

I would refrain from the kechain remotes. I saved a couple to use with my current system, and while useful and convenient (provided outdoor indicator lights or some such are installed so you KNOW the state of arming) it seemed a risk due to the fact that they could possibly be stolen and not noticed in time. They also, in addition to other wireless devices, are a no-no on UL systems.

And yes, partitioning is great. I love it. Highly recommend getting a panel that has lots of program features, because if you study into it, and think creatively and enjoy wiring and such, you make these alarm systems do ALL KINDS of stuff. I use motions and glassbreaks, but use both at night too because I only deactivate the motions in the master and bathroom --everything else is armed like we are gone and with no delay on the one entry/exit. Also recommend vibration detectors in the safe or vault if you can afford them, and having those ran properly tampered in armor cable straight to the panel (which should be in a 16ga. can, or better if you have a buddy with a sheet metal shop!) Plan on putting stress sensors in later, and the outdoor photo beams I have laying around. If you can have Ft. Knox, and it costs you pennies because you can do it yourself, why not? Shoot, I have essentially a UL listed, an AA system, in a residential home!

I don't want to mention the tricks it takes to get by motion detectors, but I will say they can all be defeated if you know what you are doing, although some are more difficult than others, and dual technology ones, such as IR and microwave together, are usually the best depending on the applications (and I'm not thinking about pet motions here). I had a DMP rep tell me he successfully defeated ultrasonic. I've defeated IR, but just for giggles, not in a heist or anything. Same for glassbreaks. I've never had a warm and fuzzy for glassbreaks, I just don't trust them on their own. I think of them as an extra to go with the motions only.

Cool to see another alarm tech on here. Your location says S. Mississip --I worked for awhile in Memphis and then some small town south of there to fix some problems a looong time ago. Also Dothan AL. Been all over the south and up to IL, OH, etc. Great job, isn't it?
 
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