Gun safe vs. poured vault

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I'd hate to see the vehicle involved in that smash and grab. I can't imagine there'd be much left of it with 12" concrete walls.
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No doubt. But the bad guys probably won't know that they're dealing with 12" (or 8") reinforced concrete, and the attempt will still leave a damaged wall that the OP will not appreciate. It's better to not even give the bad guys the idea.
 
I'd hate to see the vehicle involved in that smash and grab. I can't imagine there'd be much left of it with 12" concrete walls.
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Yeah, me either. Also, it would be a very risky proposition where the property is located.

Basically I just need to ward off smash and grab idiots looking for pill money.

I have 5 family members pretty close, 3 of whom are armed. I'll wire in a silent alarm on the house, and have it buzz through to my Uncle's place.

My wife and I both work day jobs and are home at night, but my Mom, Aunt, and Uncle are all retired, and around a lot during the day. Add to that my cousin who runs a landscaping / nursery business across the road from us, and somebody is near home all day.

My wife's parents are joking about us building out there, calling it the "family compound."

The compound thing suits me just fine :)

The worst two threats about living there will be the meth-heads scrounging for fix money and the rougher illegals - and some of them are pretty rough. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure which group is the bigger threat these days...

KR
 
I have a few observations, first off it's important to note that using Concrete Masonry Units (CMU) or "cinder block" is a pretty rapid way to get a wall put up. There's plenty of opportunity to place some rebar inside. Another approach is to cast the walls as a tilt up. By having the wall cast on the floor, you can reduce the amount of formwork necessary. Building a tallish wall to be monolithic cast would require that you have form ties which in turn will require grouting at every tie. Most commercial bank safes are constructed from pre-cast panels with metal embed plates that are welded together. Finally don't forget two things, first, put a smoke detector in the vicinity that's hooked up to a full home system. Anything that cuts generates heat, dust, and smoke which will set the alarm off. Also, remember that gypsum wallboard is a excellent means to achieve a fire rating. As few as two layers of drywall can achieve a 90 minute rating.
 
In deference to some opinions, CMUs are not the way to go. They are weaker, and you can see how easy they break (watch karate guys, LOL). Tilt wall construction is ok for big stuff, but a real PIA, on the residential level. I have built over 3 dozen concrete homes as a builder, all in the last 10 years. By far the easiest, and strongest are the ICF's. They are basically Styrofoam forms you pour the concrete into. I have had real good luck with the PolySteel brand. We have built whole houses, safe rooms, vaults, etc with these things. They are big boy legos in how they go together.

I would consider first building the entire house (exterior walls) out of these with your vault integrated into the design. As far as comments about putting steel in them. Trust your engineer, they will tell you what size, spacing, etc on that stuff. Building codes will generally apply as far as electrical and HVAC. The holes you make to route the mechanicals inside your vault will not be large enough to compromise the security. Be leery of putting a dehumidifier inside a closed space with guns. Getting the humidity below 50% will cause more damage to your wood, than the benefit from adding protection to your metal. Museum guys have the proper numbers for long term storage of firearms.

A good architect will be worth his fee. Even if you have a design in mind, he will put it in a format that the regulating authority will like, the engineers will like, the contractors will like and it will make your life easier.

Check out the ICFs, Insulated Concrete Forms. Most of these companies will help you with the design at little or no cost, or provide plans. I have personally used the first three companies listed below. Almost used the Owens/Corning product, but lost the bid :(
http://www.polysteel.com/
http://www.eco-block.com/
http://www.rewardwalls.com/
http://www.quadlock.com/
http://www.foldform.com/


This group is here to help you.
http://www.cement.org/homes/

As an added benefit, you can't find a more solid structure with a better energy saving potential. The additional cost is usually made up in a couple of years with energy savings.

Good Luck.
 
I'd like to add one more thought about vault building, try to limit who knows and how much they know about it, a storm shelter doesn't sound like a nice target for crooks, but a gun vault, will be another story, if roumer builds it up enough somebody will make an attempt.

As to those worried about a smash and grab using a vehicle, maybe a water feature in the right spot in the yard will fix that, nobody needs to know that that fish pond you always gripe about was really your idea. Maybe not a pond but a tall raised flower planter, made of a ton of concrete?
 
I'd like to add one more thought about vault building, try to limit who knows and how much they know about it
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+1
There's a reason kings and despots would kill all the slaves used to build their palaces ;)
 
[QUOTEQuote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G.
If you build your gun safe into the foundation, you better be darn sure you'll never have to move.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. While it would make it less convenient for you, it wouldn't detract from the selling value of the house. In fact, it would only increase it]
[/QUOTE]

+1 I wouldnt mind buying a house with a pre-built in vault of some sort. That would be cool, less work for me :p

Heck you could hide Xmas gifts in it! :D
 
The holes you make to route the mechanicals inside your vault will not be large enough to compromise the security.
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I'm not sure what the standard procedure is, but it seems to me that if you have your mechanicals come up through holes in the floor of the vault, it would make it extremely difficult to use those holes to compromise security.
 
I have vaults for both security and fire resistence in many of the projects my firm designs. There are far too many ineffective vault construction ideas here (and a few that violate building codes). Consult a professional architect or engineer for your vault.
 
If a guy wanted to build a cinder block room in an average basement, would a standard basement floor slab support the weight?
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Short answer is no, at least not without significant reinforcement to the slab. You will need a footer to help bear the additional load...with which comes inflated cost and difficulty. If designed with the house it is a simple addition.

Additionally, your standard CMU (concrete masonry unit) is low grade concrete, which is even weaker than the cinder blocks seen in older construction (which were weak themselves). The inside cavities are often left unfilled (sometimes even when specified), and when they are a relatively weak grout is used. Even with fully filled cavities and plenty of vertical reinforcement (horizontal reinforcement is sparse at best, and often omitted from CMU structure designs) entering the walls of the vault would be elementary task. Using a strong mix of reinforced concrete (5kPSI+) would be advantageous in this case, and of little added cost when the total expenditure is taken into account.

:)
 
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I would re-evaluate the insallation of HVAC duct work in a vault. HVAC duct work is a fire channel and for most of us fire is a least as great a risk as theft.
 
I haven't read through every post here, so if someone has mentioned it, i risk redundency.

Put the room below ground. If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.

Many a store has been broken into by people driving through cinderblock and concrete walls

If it's underground, nothing short of a jackhammer and bucket tractor is gonna get 'er open. And they wouldn't have time for that with an obviously nefarious operation. Or defeating the vault door, but that's why you'd conceal i..
 
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If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.
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Cinder block perhaps. Properly reinforced concrete is doubtful.
 
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If it is above ground, even 8 or 10" concrete is not difficult to get a medium duty truck through (though it'd be real obvious to neighbors). Couple of hits with something like my duece and a half, it'll crumble, then they just have to stick a cable with a hook on the rebar and pull away a chunk to walk in. They could gain access in less than a minute.

Thats why I wrote about adding barriers, if the crooks ramming vehicle is high centered or stuck in a pond they won't reach your vault, good defense has layers because defeating layers takes time. They might even make enough mistakes to get their donkeys caught.
 
Cinder block perhaps. Properly reinforced concrete is doubtful.
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Truck could easily defeat Reinforced concrete as well...but, it would have to go pretty fast which naturally leads to (at best) lugging around dozens of firearms by hand. Which is a bit tough and pretty conspicuous (not to mention that you are likely to be seriously injured in the process).

:)
 
I think that what you are proposing is a good idea, but it will be expensive if you want to provide an atmosphere/environment for your guns that will keep them in excellent condition and not expose them to humidity and/or other moisture concerns. I lived in a home in Michigan years ago that had a similar room; no way would I have stored anything valuable in it, and Michigan has far less humidity than Kentucky, in my experience. To get it into gun-worthy storage condition would have been an expensive proposition then; I'm guessing that it would be even moreso today.
 
Truck could easily defeat Reinforced concrete as well...but, it would have to go pretty fast
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Perhaps in your average 5,000-8,000 pound LD pick-up with chincy sheetmetal and crumple zones. I mentioned my duece before, and I'll use it again. That's a 14,000 pound truck with 1/4" thick steel bumpers bolted directly to (guestimating, not near the vehicle) 3"x8"x5/16" c-channel frame rails. I submit that a good "bump" or two from 10mph or so would destroy the integrity of an 8" thick concrete wall. I'm not about to test this theory with my own vehicle, as damage certainly could result. But I don't believe I'm too far off base. That kind of rigid mass doesn't need much velocity to defeat a relatively brittle barrier.

It also wouldn't take much engineering to do something like weld a piece of pointed I-beam to the bumper with two "barbs" that would spring out and act like a harpoon. It would pierce the wall easily, and then just back up to remove a sizeable chunk of wall.

Granted, this would be above and beyond the capabilities and resources of the average burglar, but that doesn't make it any less feasible, especially if the perceived return of the stolen items is high enough.
 
This has to be the claustrophobia speaking, but I'd want any safe big enough to walk into to have a means of being unlocked from the inside. I know . . . I'm mentally ill . . . but the thing that runs through my mind is being locked inside, either inadvertantly or by some doofus.

One of my brothers-in-law just built a new house with an oversized garage. The garage floor is constructed of precast concrete sections that interlock. The result was a huge basement room that could be secured by a heavy duty steel door. He keeps his tools, gun safe, etc. down there. Pretty cool.

As others have said, I don't think you can count on any sort of sealant/paint keeping moisture out. You'll need a mechanical means of introducing dried air and venting this vault.
 
Thousands of banks nationwide have concrete vaults where moisture is not a concern. There are simple ways of dealing with this.

I do find it amusing that we are discussing crashing through vaults in this thread. Most of the post concerning gun safes on this forum revolve around a 1/10" steel wall being sufficient to keep out your average burglar, yet in this post, 8" of reinforced concrete is not enough.
 
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