GUNFIRE AT WAFFLE HOUSE AFTER WHITES, HISPANICS ARGUE OVER CITIZENSHIP

[dmallind]

Sorry to be picky longeyes but no - English fluency at a very basic level is a requirement only for citizenship, not for permanent residency. It's very easy to be here, perfectly legally, and not speak a lick of English.

I would probably agree with you that it shouldn't be that way - we should establish a timeline for continuing residency which includes very basic English after a couple of years (how quickly could most Americans learn to be fluent in, say, Mandarin?) and perhaps 1st-grade levl after 5 years to go permanent, but that's not the way it IS so you can't make the assumption you are trying to make.

Doing it right, I might not argue a lot. Doing it legal, definitely on the wrong track.

EDIT - If yours is a common assumption, this may very well magnify the perceived number of illegals people encounter. People unable (or uncomfortable or heck even unwilling but able) to speak English are not necessarily illegals.

I've mentioned the assembly work force here a time or two. It is overwhelmigly Hmong (St. Paul is the second largest destination for these folks and we are just on the edge of the most concentrated Hmong neighborhoods). There are some Somali/Rwandan/Ethiopian immigrants and some Hispanic folk, and a smattering of Anglos too. We DO verify legal status - wejust had to can a couple of workers last year with forged papers - so I can assure you absent one or two clever or lucky forgers, we have a 100% legal workforce. Not only that but being an ISO9001:2000 registered company, we control our processes by means of written work instructions and procedures, so we administer an English test before hiring. So they all, at least in writing, have some basic English skills too.

The point? Few of them choose to speak English unless they need to, and generally do so with strong accents and sometimes extremely impaired grammar. Few of us working in China with a largely American workforce, neighborhood and amenities would get very far in Mandarin either I suspect - when it is both more comfortable and easier to work and live using our native tongue except to read work instructions. All of em legal, lousy English, little reason to get better other than advancement (which not everyone of any race seeks). To further illustrate the point I can read pretty well in both French and Italian but my grammar is horrible in both and my spoken fluency is 1st grade level and toddler level respectively. Don't think that doesn't apply to the English skills of perfectly legal immigrants here too - so the fact they don't exhibit spoken English fluency, or choose to use what English they have, does not make them illegal.

 

[longeyes]

See your point, but permanent residency isn't the issue here, illegal alien presence is.

I think basic language fluency is the great divide and a very reliable indicator of either citizenship status or legal residency. No doubt there are some exceptions on the legal residency side but I haven't thought through what those might be.

 

[444]

" so the fact they don't exhibit spoken English fluency, or choose to use what English they have, does not make them illegal."

I haven't read a post yet that implied they were illegal. However, when attempting to find illegals, people who don't speak English are the people to check. Checking is NOT saying they are illegals because they don't speak English.
Hey, if you don't want to ever speak English in your life, that is your business. But, you should expect to be questioned about it.
I know that America loves the victim, but there have been many times that I have been asked to provide credentials as to my identity and my citizenship. I was born in the US and speak English. I am a WASP. My family tree has been traced back to the Mayflower. My family fought in the American Revolution. Never the less, I have been required to prove that I am a US citizen MANY times.
Why should someone who can't or won't speak English NOT be asked to prove their citizenship when I have to ? Why does that make them some kind of victim, but with me it is just SOP ? Why is it profiling with them and with me it is just the rules ?

 

[dmallind]

My point is that you can't use fluency in the language as an indicator for illegals. It's at best a one way relationship in that illegals are MORE likely (not definite or even LOTS more likely) to have very limited English but the same does not hold in reverse. Especially when lack of English use does not necessarily mean lack of capability, just choice.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

+1 to 444...in fact, +12 to 20 million

Even if we give up "racial profiling," it isn't difficult to make it much harder for illegals to get what they came for. Requiring positive identification before getting social services, medical care, education, or employment is not a big deal. Most of these things already require a little bit of hassle and paper work. If it means less of these parasites running around my country taking advantage of benefits they didn't contribute to or earn, I will gladly prove I am an American citizen. Punishing employeers who hire illegals with mandatory stiff fines and jail time for repeat offenders makes perfect sense. So does a lot of this stuff but you have to be willing to step away from the circle jerk and admit feelings are going to be hurt. This isn't a group hug, we aren't singing around a campfire, this is the future of our country and it is being given away to the worst of the worst with less regard for the rights and opinions of those who earned and rightfully deserve them that for these criminals and leeches flooding our country illegally. There is no PC solution. But there is a solution and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see it.

 

[dmallind]

I haven't read a post yet that implied they were illegal. However, when attempting to find illegals, people who don't speak English are the people to check. Checking is NOT saying they are illegals because they don't speak English.
Hey, if you don't want to ever speak English in your life, that is your business. But, you should expect to be questioned about it.
I know that America loves the victim, but there have been many times that I have been asked to provide credentials as to my identity and my citizenship. I was born in the US and speak English. I am a WASP. Never the less, I have been required to prove that I am a US citizen MANY times.
Why should someone who can't or won't speak English NOT be asked to prove their citizenship when I have to ?

Well firstly, there are several instances where posters assumed illegal status based on English fluency.

Secondly I have no problem being asked to prove citizenship, AS LONG AS it applies equally. The Constitution isn't there to protect the majority, and equal protection means what it says. I am curious (not arguing, curious) why you have been asked to prove citizenship so often. I AM an immigrant and DO have an accent and, since I have been a citizen (11 years or so) I've had to prove it just three times - once to get a passport, and twice when starting new jobs. Everyone DOES need to do this - illegals included. They just cheat, since some easily forged documents are accepted for proof.

Don't get the idea I am against proving citizenship - far from it - I'm very much FOR that - but to be effective it needs to be very difficult to forge and easy to verify instantly. To be Constitutional, it has to apply to anyone, not just the brown skinned and accented. Bear in mind too that citizenship is not required, just legal residency and a permit to work. Unless you want to hand out citizenship at the airport or border, you also have to apply the same verification requirements for legal aliens. The I-551 is not EASY to forge but it's not that hard either unless the screener can run fingerprints and knows all the holograms etc.

 

[444]

"I am curious (not arguing, curious) why you have been asked to prove citizenship so often."

Well, I can't give you everywhere, it is actually quite common. But you mentioned a few. I have a US passport. The last two jobs I got. Years ago I had to get a card that allowed me access to all parts of the airport and in the process they run you though interpol. When I have gone to Mexico or Canada (I have never left North America).
It happens often enough that I have copies of my birth certificate on file.
Hell, I had to provide proof of US citizenship when I bought my frist rifle from the CMP.

I remember when I joined the US Army I not only had to prove US citizenship but they made a little deal out of the fact that I had an uncle living in Somalia.

Obviously this stuff doesn't just apply to certain people.

This reminds me of a funny story.
I was on leave from the Army and tried to go to a strip club/whorehouse. You had to knock on the door and they would come and let you in. I think it was because I had my hair cut down to the skull but they didn't want to let me in. So, they asked for my ID. I gave them my drivers license. They said, is this the only ID you have ? I said, no, and gave them my military ID. They said we need three forms of ID and I pulled out some other kind of picture ID. Finally they said that I had to show them a birth certificate and it just so happened, I had a copy of it in my wallet. Obviously, they kept upping the requirements thinking I wouldn't have them and they could deny me entry. Finally after all that they just said they wern't going to let me in.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Mmmkay, this is getting really silly. Profiling is a helpful tool. Even some police chiefs these days are gathering enough testosterone to admit this publicly.

I don't give a crap if you are purple with orange dots. If 90% of criminals are purple with orange dots, guess what, you will be asked for your ID nine times more often than a green guy with white dots if only 10% of the criminals are, you guessed it, green guys with white dots. This is criminology, not racism. Don't like it? Do something to make certain 90% of the criminals are not your complexion and dot color.

We live in years when it becomes more and more obvious what gruesome crippling damage we have sustained as a country, society, and culture at the hands of PCism.

 

[Dodgeit]

Just an FYI for the folks here that are not familiar with Asheville, NC.
The citizenry of this town lean about as far left as it is possible to go, so it is not a surprise that the paper's headline implies that Americans caused the Mexicans to shoot, because of heighten tensions regarding Illegal Aliens.

The State Government of NC as a whole loves Mexicans, no proof of citizenship to get a drivers licence, nor proof of insurance. The only thing needed is proof of residence. :banghead:

 

[dmallind]

Well sorry Cannoneer but that pesky Constitution says otherwise. There is a big difference between increasing patrols in high crime neighborhoods and subjecting all citizens who have characteristic X to greater impediments to enjoyment of the rights of citizenship than those without characteristic X.

You are falling for a basic logical fallacy. If A means B is more likely, that says NOTHING about whether B means A is more likely.

Logically these two constructs are identical:

A - Most illegals have a strong accent and/or a swarthy skin tone. We need to catch illegals, therefore we should check all people who have accents or swarthy skins and have them prove they are not illegals

B - Most murderers have a gun and/or a knife. We need to catch murderers, therefore we should check all people who have guns or knives and have them prove they are not murderers (no the NICS check does NOT do this - just proves you have not been convicted of murder - the equal analogy for the illegal would be that he simply has to prove he has not been convicted of illegal entry in that case)

In both cases, they apply the "if A then B = if B then A" fallacy AND contradict innocent until guilty and equal protection.

 

[dmallind]

The State Government of NC as a whole loves Mexicans, no proof of citizenship to get a drivers licence, nor proof of insurance. The only thing needed is proof of residence.

So I'm all for proof of legality being needed for a DL, but depending on how you mean residence, bear in mind that not all legal immigrants are citizens, in fact for the vast majority of legal immigrants you CAN'T be a citizen for 4-5 years. Should immigranst not be able to drive for four years?

 

[DevLcL]

I, for one, am sick of this garbage.

The enemy has start their movement... It's time for Americans to step up to the plate. What are we waiting for?

I'm not trying to say we should all go out and start shooting mexicans. Thats not the answer, but maybe its time we come together and start getting our fire hoses ready for the summer heat.

Talking has gotten us NOWHERE, time for action. IMHO.

-Dev

Should immigranst not be able to drive for four years?

Absolutely not. I'm tired of seeing america support mexico. If they want a better life they need to work on reform in their own country. Don't give me that "We're all immagrants" speech. That's almost as bad as "Mexicans do all the jobs Americans don't want to do."

 

[dmallind]

Funny that with your sig dev you haven't considered things like this:

or this

indeed things like this have happened before, and no doubt will again in the next immigrant wave...

 

[dmallind]

Should immigranst not be able to drive for four years?



Absolutely not.

Yes now there's a reasoned and effective approach that will of course make immigrants productive members of society, fully and legally integrated into the country. :banghead:

And yes we are all either immigrants or relatively few generations from them. I personally am one myself. I didn't come here for " a better life" I came here because I married someone with stronger family ties than my own who happened to be American. Should I not have been able to drive for four years?

Do the rest of you still have to wonder why it's easy to view extremely emotional concerns about illegal immigrants as simple xenophobia when people with those views lump in all legal immigrants with such nonsense and say people should not be able to drive in this country?

 

[Gun Geezer]

"The best defense is not to offend"

The white guy must have used a racial slur. Otherwise the gentleman would not have shot at him.

Therefore, the law breaking, gun toting, drive by shooting, "immigrant" is innocent and excussed of all actions for 2-years follwing the uttereance of said slur.

 

[Selfdfenz]

dmallind

Do the rest of you still have to wonder why it's easy to view extremely emotional concerns about illegal immigrants as simple xenophobia when people with those views lump in all legal immigrants with such nonsense and say people should not be able to drive in this country?

Perhaps lumping is bad practice.

Have you ever watched a marginally English language enabled “license coyote” work a group of 4-5 non-English enabled applicants thru the process at a TX driver’s license office? I have.

The applicants have documentation of insurance, all 30- days worth, but they can’t figure out that’s the document the nice very Spanish language enabled lady behind the counter is after.

I think the coyote also does all the talking to make sure everyone puts the right name in the right place on the forms even if it’s not their real name. It all gets confusing because they have several names on several SS cards. Perhaps they have a different approach in MN.

Heck who's to say they should be limited to one license?

But I agree that lumping everyone together is a bad thing and surely giving everyone a license is best even if we can’t read the signs, don’t know the laws and we have no idea who they are. At least they had insurance, once, for 30 days.

Happy motoring

S-

 

[dmallind]

Now where did I imply that standards for immigrants to drive should be any lower than for native borns? Another strawman I believe.

The idea that immigrants, legal, insured, safe, passing all the tests etc, should be prevented from driving is just a tad OTT don't you think?

 

[kart racer]

SS,I live near the Charlotte area where your mom is.I don't blame a person for wanting to come to the greatest country on earth,but they need to do it the correct way.The ones who are now,that didn't do it legally need to be deported and go to the back of the line.
I work for an insurance company,asked your mom about how many illegals that have been in fatal traffic accidents lately here-that were their fault.
I blame the government for letting things get this far out of hand.If I wanted my son to grow up in a South American enviroment,I would have moved there.
As far as your comment about if the shoe fits,being a redneck,bigot,etc..I have black friends and I know they consider me a true friend.Come visit this area and ask them what they think.I believe this is one issue that will unite more blacks(African Americans) for the politcally correct-which is another issue.In some instances the blacks are more fed up than others.
In Charlotte,the hispanic community evidently felt the banks here weren't good enough and opened their own.They're not assimilating,they're trying to claim a new mexico.

 

[CAnnoneer]

If A means B is more likely, that says NOTHING about whether B means A is more likely.

Last time I checked, 85% of all illegals are Mexicans. That's enough of a correlation for me and for any pragmatically minded American.

It is ridiculous to say that asking somebody for an ID is a major limitation to their freedoms. Then anyone who uses a credit card must be oppressed.

 

[Quo Vadis]

Anti-American Mexicans

"Anti-Mexican people" has a kinda nasty ring to it. I'm not anti-Mexican, I'm anti-anyone who wishes to invade and colonize my country while breaking our laws. It just so happens that the vast majority of these people I describe are from Mexico.…

The common people - the poor, the dirty, the lice ridden, the cockroaches are advancing on the United States, a country that needs to speak Spanish because it has 33.5 million Hispanics who are imposing their culture. Mexican writer Elena Poniatowska Caracas, 3 July 2001

The Mexican writer Elena Poniatowska asserted today that Mexico is at this moment recovering territories it lost in the past to the United States thanks to emigration. Mexican writer Elena Poniatowska Caracas, 3 July 2001

 

[orionengnr]

and, lest we overstate the obvious



It is a bit of a reach to equate proving one's legal residence status as opposed to proving oneself innocent of murder.

As far as profiling goes, sorry if it offends you, but allowing young Arab males to board an airliner unmolested while strip searching granny offends me.

Get real.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Ultimately, we aren't the same country we were in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Why? Because the country was united behind a civil war which had cleared issues as to who is what? Is loyalty to a state override loyalty to the US government?

Now, the South and the West has a culture gap with the coasts and the great lakes states to a large degree over "How shall we continue?"

That gap in American life, and society must be remedied before we can accept anything other than a pittance of legal immigrants, and the occasional refugees. Anything else will lead to a balkanization of America.

 

[NCP24]

Those transients and homeless people walking about with backpacks are just hippies and students.

+1 real_name

The citizenry of this town lean about as far left as it is possible to go, so it is not a surprise that the paper's headline implies that Americans caused the Mexicans to shoot, because of heighten tensions regarding Illegal Aliens.

Dogeit I can’t agree with you more about the town folk. Having said that the Asheville area also has a fair number of hard right conservatives and libertarians. For alternative news source (monthly issue) try http://www.mountainguardian.com/ There’s a few more but I can’t recall the publications.

 

[dmallind]

If A means B is more likely, that says NOTHING about whether B means A is more likely.

Last time I checked, 85% of all illegals are Mexicans. That's enough of a correlation for me and for any pragmatically minded American.

I'm sorry Cannoneer but you are still ignoring, missing, or missplaying the logical context.

If 85% of murderers are male (dunno, but probably close) that does not mean most males are murderers.

The same goes for Hispanics. 2003 data shows 40 million Hispanics in the US - about 14% of the population. Only 40% of those are foreign born so even if EVERY SINGLE foreign born Hispanic is illegal - an absolutely absurd possibility - that means 60% are legal. The truth of course will be far higher - add in every legal Hispanic immigrant to that 60%. Heck only 61% of Hispanic kids even have ONE foreign born parent - meaning that 39% are second generation US born citizens.

So the percentage of illegals that are Mexican says NOTHING about the percentage of Mexicans that are illegal.

I can't make it any clearer - if A then B says nothing about if B then A. It's absolutely first day of Logic 101. It applies to immigration too.

 

[carlrodd]

We are going to have to find ways to "discriminate" in order to identify people here illegally. No way around that. It's that or just forget the whole damn thing. -longeyes

YES. +1

it's tragic that we are, as a country, essentially more comfortable allowing the nation to walk the green mile, than getting the hard, unsavoury work DONE, and getting on with the growth and healing(which incidentally would include hispanic immigrants who are here legally). but you can't have strong opinions anymore, or you are a 'racist'. nobody even knows what it means. in the world of abused, misused words, 'racist' is the new 'classic rock'.