GUNFIRE AT WAFFLE HOUSE AFTER WHITES, HISPANICS ARGUE OVER CITIZENSHIP

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I assume you're reffering to me.

Why do some of you oppose securing your border so much?

Where did I say I opposed securing the border? I oppose constructing a giant wall/fence as it would be a massive undertaking that would cost billions. I'd rather invest the time and money in more border patrol agents, more equipment, better technology, etc.

Give the border patrol the necessary powers, let the cops ask people if they are citizens or not.

Yea.. and while we're at it, let's let the cops confiscate your weapons to determine if you legally own them... ya know.. just be be safe.

When an illegal enters the prison system give them a punishment and DEPORT them. Don't show a defeatist attitude to borders

We dont have enough space in prisons as it is. Packing them with day with roofers and maids is a waste. Just send them back to Mexico.
 
"Yea.. and while we're at it, let's let the cops confiscate your weapons to determine if you legally own them... ya know.. just be be safe."

Nice strawman, were they on sale where you live? How's asking a question equate to taking property off you? How's letting the border patrol doing its job the same?

By the way, I mentioned prison terms for other crimes they may have committed, you know like assault. I noticed I might've come off sounding half cocked with that line.
 
ss, I don't believe I missed your point

Your recurring point seems to be:
"There is nothing you can do about it so get used to it." I simply reject that line of reasoning.
Your subtext, also recurring, is "it's all about skin color". I know you live in PC, color blind CA (lived there myself for 20 years, leaving in '01) but down here, if someone is in a traffic accident, has no license, no insurance and No Habla, that looks like a good place to start to me.

My GF was rear-ended thusly, and my co-worker's car was hit the same way. There are two examples of people who "probably" don't belong here, and if they are able to produce something to prove otherwise, I will listen to their argument. In English.

We had a Fort Worth cop killed here a few months back, by an illegal. Remember the bus that caught on fire during the Rita evacuation? Driver was, you guessed it...

My point is, you don't need to round em up. They will come to you. Like I said before, you don't need to catch all the fish.

In the mean time I still don't hear anything about stopping the influx, which is where it all begins...
 
Ok.. Let's let the cops come over your house and inquire about your weapons to see if they're legal.. ya know.. just to be safe. I guarantee you people would be flipping out of cops randomly started questioning gun owners about the legality of their firearms.

Who do you propose the cops should ask about their citizenship status?
 
Orionengnr nailed it. "...has no license, no insurance and No Habla, that looks like a good place to start to me."

Get the police to at least make an effort in obvious cases. Quit with the weapon strawman, some states make it compulsory to tell the officer if you are carrying but i don't hear you wetting yourself about that.
 
"There is nothing you can do about it so get used to it." I simply reject that line of reasoning.
Your subtext, also recurring, is "it's all about skin color". I know you live in PC, color blind CA (lived there myself for 20 years, leaving in '01) but down here, if someone is in a traffic accident, has no license, no insurance and No Habla, that looks like a good place to start to me.

My GF was rear-ended thusly, and my co-worker's car was hit the same way. There are two examples of people who "probably" don't belong here, and if they are able to produce something to prove otherwise, I will listen to their argument. In English.

I understand your point of view, but being a black person I am not comfortable with racial profiling of anyone. I work on Coronado Island here in San Diego and I've been pulled over multiple times and asked "What are you doing on Coronado?" as if I shouldnt be driving around such an affluent area. Maybe I dont look like I "belong" around these million dollar houses and boats, but I dont think that gives the cops a reason to pull me over for no reason.

We had a Fort Worth cop killed here a few months back, by an illegal. Remember the bus that caught on fire during the Rita evacuation? Driver was, you guessed it...

Your point is if the illegal wasnt here, then he wouldnt have killed the cop.
The person's citizenship status has little to do with the murder, IMO.

Anti's use the same arguments against gun owners.. they say "if the crook didnt have a gun, then he wouldnt have shot the 7-11 clerk". We all know the gun isnt the issue though.


My point is, you don't need to round em up. They will come to you. Like I said before, you don't need to catch all the fish.

I got no problem with that.. I take issue with people advocating cops interoggating people about their citizenship status.
 
crazed ss

You assume to much. The police can and do query people who are in possession for firearms as to their ownership all the time. I believe LEO's may also explore the issue anytime they are called if they think the presence of a firearm and its removal is germaine to securing a crime scene or suspected crime scene.

And you overlook one tiny detail. Gun owners have the 2nd amendment.

Now which amendment is it exactly that says LE cannot ask an individual if they are here illegally?

S-
 
I'm still wondering how you guys determine who should be questioned and who shouldnt.

You say the cops should put effort into questioning obvious illegal people. Who is obvious. You can go to any construction site or produce field around here and see Mexican people toiling away. Are the cops supposed to just walk over and arrest everyone because they're speaking Spanish and look like illegal Mexicans? This is why I say the the problem is so far out of hand and focusing on deporting 12 million people is the wrong way to go. Someone said it earlier.. we need to stop the influx. You do that by enforcing laws we already have.
 
I've noted several comments to the effect that why don't they fix their own country (whatever it is)? Damn good question. However, as long as the U.S. is available as a 'relief valve', they'll continue to export their poverty and 'problem children' here.

Using Mexico as an example, if all of 'them' couldn't get out, in time there might be enough social pressure for a revolution of some sort that might straighten things out down there (Caveat: Becareful what you wish for . . .no guarantees on the outcome -)

Domestic parallel - We all like to yammer about how skrewed up California is, and if you've ever lived anywhere that has experience a large influx of Californians (e.g. after the colapse of some industry or economic downturn), you'll notice two things. First, all the 'refugees' complain about how much CA sux. Second, they start trying to turn wherever they've ended up into CA. Culture does matter! Maybe if we made all the Californicators stay in CA, they'd find the gumption to fix their problems instead of running away and bringing all their twisted left coast values with them:neener: :barf: :neener:
 
Mexico is a corrupt country it is very hard to grow up in such a country
and not have it's effect on all. Mexico's wealth is in the hands of 4 percent
of it's population. Most of south America is a growing trouble for our country
and it will be more so in coming years. We need secure borders that for me
can be fence with many boots on the ground but it must be a hard line.

I see no reason for America to continue absorbing the worse(in many cases)
of the world as our military grows smaller each year, our debt larger.

We need to look to the future of this country and not all other countries
around the world, that does not mean we cannot trade and give aid but
it must be selective. America should not be the feeding trough for the world.
People will only hate us more if we continue on as we have in the past 30
years.
 
ASHEVILLE - my observation

I worked up on Mount Mitchell last summer. I have been to that Waffle House. I agree - ' Eating at any Waffle House is dangerous' :what: . When I would go into Asheville I saw alot of folks w/ back packs and homeless. A local preacher indicated that Asheville has a one of the largest transeient and homeless populations in the country. I don't know for sure, just an observation.
 
FWIW, from the GAO

Keep in mind that these people are all in prison or jail, this is not a study of 55k+ random illegal aliens.
In and of itself, this doesn't mean a whole lot other than IMO saying that our lack of border security has added a burden of 55k+ criminals to our criminal justice system which is yet another burden illegal immigration places on the American working class. Don't we have enough losers without importing another country's losers ?

http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-646R

For a population of aliens that entered the country illegally and were incarcerated in federal or state prisons or local jails, this report addresses the following questions: (1) How many times have they been arrested? (2) How many and what type of criminal offenses have they been arrested for? (3) What states were they arrested in?

In our population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, we found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990. They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud--including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice. Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states--California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.
 
When I would go into Asheville I saw alot of folks w/ back packs and homeless. A local preacher indicated that Asheville has a one of the largest transeient and homeless populations in the country. I don't know for sure, just an observation.

Those transients and homeless people walking about with backpacks are just hippies and students. I go to Asheville and the Saluda NC area every fall on vacation, Asheville is a great town and very safe, (even safer in comparison with home here in Nashville where IMO there isn't much crime at all.)
I liken Asheville to somewhere like Sedona AZ. Lots of artists and lots of hippies taking a sabbatical. There's even a 'green/eco' contractor in Asheville who drives around in a BioDiesel truck. It's just that sort of place.
I'm not saying there is zero crime, or that there are no reactionary racist jerks. Just that most of the homeless people you saw are probably just scruffy dope smoking students and hippies.
 
And So It Begins...

...Thus, how shall it end?

Woody

"The United States of America is not up for grabs. Keep your hands off and steer clear. Free people live here - Free people who are determined to stay free. Our rights and freedom will be defended with extreme prejudice." B.E.Wood
 
How will what end?
Illegal immigration?
That won't end IMO, the GOP needs them to work for cheap and the Dems don't want to hurt anyones feelings.
This thread?
Same as all the other 'illegals' threads, with a lockdown.
The world?
Quietly, long after we're all gone.
 
crazed ss said:
I'm still wondering how you guys determine who should be questioned and who shouldnt.
You say the cops should put effort into questioning obvious illegal people.

"Obvious possiblities" might be:
1) Anyone crossing the border at the few, controlled crossings in the "2000 mile fence."
2) Anyone caught committing a crime.
3) Anyone working for an employer who has known illegal aliens in his work force.
4) Any relatives/roomates of identified illegals.
5) Any "protester" walking down an American street waving a Mexican flag.

I realize you consider a fence "asinine", but, talk is cheap.
Objectively, it is certainly feasible, and would probably cost less than hiring enough Border agents to patrol thousands of miles of barrierless border.
And, by any reasonable standard, a fence is far less asinine than what we are currently doing - shuffling millions of illegals back and forth across the border in some insane game of hide and seek.
 
This question was already answered earlier in a very satisfactory manner IMO.
You don't have to go looking for them, they will come to you.

In my last post, we have 55,000 of them in prison. We already know they are illegals, we don't have to go looking for them. They came to us. Rather than feed/house/cloth them, deport them.

Then we come to traffic accidents and offenses. I would wager that there are illegal aliens involved in these incidents many times a day in every city of any size in the US. I work full time as a paramedic and am not talking through my hat: I see it all the time. Not only are these people illegal, but now they have caused significant damage and possibly bodily injury to someone and they have no insurance to pay for any of it (That's OK, I got it, just roll that into MY insurance rate). The other people involved will never be able to recover anything, but we can give them a consolation prize: the illegals are deported.

Then of course there is the question of employment. Allegedly the reason they come to this country. If I am not mistaken, we already have a mechanism in place to ask to see certain credentials before someone can be hired. We should take this a step further and provide some way for the prospective employer to verify the information given. For example: if someone gives a social security number, it could be verified that this person was born in such and such a place and is in fact alive or something like that. If eight people are using that SS number then it is pretty obvious that at least seven of them are fakes. If the SS number comes back to some guy that was born in Davenport Iowa, yet the guy with the card can't speak English, you might want to think about this. If it can be determined that an employer hired an illegal alien without running them through a background check, then the owner of the company or CEO of the corporation will face mandatory jail time. This includes people who pick up day workers at Home Depot or the local nursery.

Let's also use some common sense here. After 9/11 we had a big hubbub by the lefties about profiling. This is hogwash. When dealing with people you can certainly tell if they can speak English and if they can, is it heavily accented. If either of these apply, you ask for ID. This obviously is far to easy for the average liberal to understand. Sometimes the person will pull out valid ID and everyone goes on about their business, so what ?

There are many venues where illegals attempt to enter the mainstream. Want me to be really un-PC ?: hospitals. They come in to a hospital for medical care with no intention of paying for it (That's OK, I got it, just roll part of that into my medical bills so my insurance rates can go up so you can get yours). I can hear the lefties crying now: oh but you can't deny them medical care !!!!!! Ok, I agree with you. If they need emergency medical care, we give it to them. If it isn't an emergency, we put them on a plane to elsewhere within the hour. If it is an emergency, when they are able, we deport them. Before you go off half cocked about this, do you think that if a known murderer comes to a hospital that they give him a pass because he is at a hospital ? These people are criminals. Felons in fact. Why are we giving them a pass at the hospital ?

Then another sacred cow, the lawyers office. Switch to the Spanish channel and note the personal injury lawyers advertising in Spanish. These people want to take someone else's assets through the use of force, but they can't even speak the native tongue. So, before you can participate in the American legal system, you have to prove you are a citizen. If, in the proces you fail the test. You are deported.

Obviously anywhere that gives out my money to people who didn't earn it (government give away programs). Governemnt housing, food stamps, Medicaid, Social Security, School System............................

But, as mentioned, this isn't ONLY about the Mexicans. People from other countries certainly come here to enjoy what America has to offer. How many students do we have at our universities that come from nations known to sponser terrorism ? How many students from other countries come here and engage in protests which involve spitting on and burning our flag and denouncing our leaders ? How many American kids would like to take their place in college but can't afford it ?

Build it, and they will come.

Hell, I see cars and trucks driving around town everyday that have stickers covering the back window announcing what Mexican state they come from.

This ain't rocket science.
 
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glummer said:
"Obvious possiblities" might be:
1) Anyone crossing the border at the few, controlled crossings in the "2000 mile fence."
2) Anyone caught committing a crime.
3) Anyone working for an employer who has known illegal aliens in his work force.
4) Any relatives/roomates of identified illegals.
5) Any "protester" walking down an American street waving a Mexican flag.

I realize you consider a fence "asinine", but, talk is cheap.

I don't like the fence idea because of the imagery of the Berlin Wall. This may be totally unwarranted, but it would be a sad day IF we had an armed wall like that.

Now for your points above.
1) I totally agree
2) This should be obvious...again, totally agree
3) This is a bit more touchy...on the outside, I agree...but this could be taken to the point of harrassing employers that either made a mistake or purposed did things wrong and reformed their ways.
4) Same as #3...on the surface, this seems very obvious...but if you think about it more, you could be trampling on the rights (harrassing) Americans.
5) This I totally DISAGREE with. Would you stop Irish paraders at a St Paddy's day celebration (yes, I know you said protestors). This is just wrong. I can be proud of where I come from and have another flag and I should not be harrassed for that! I'm more pissed at the lack of respect of the US flag then people carrying another flag (i.e. when those students raised the Mexican flag ABOVE the US flag with the US flag upside-down).
 
ss, I respect your desire for ultimate freedom, and that is where your protests come from. But consider the reality that human society does have to have some organization and some laws of practical nature. It is inevitable that such restrict what one might call total anarchistic freedom. Those are small sacrifices that do not detract from our core freedoms; otherwise, the FF would have voted for no laws whatsoever. Ultimately, the Constitution is a law as well.

Most people see nothing wrong with showing their driver's license, registration, and insurance card to an officer conducting a traffic stop. Why is that any different from immigration agents asking for the same? Observe that the commie mutant traitors and the big business that want unlimited invasion are both vehemently opposed to denying illegals driver's licenses. That is because they know a driver's license would be a terrific way to weed out the illegals at no extra harassment for the legal population.
 
crazed_ss

i know you don't wat to hear this but that "profiling" thing cuts both ways, i've seen white kids in shiny new pickups pulled over for being in a known drug sells area, and guys' in luxury cars pulled over for being in know prostitute areas.
if you lived in one of those "million" dollar homes yourself, who would you want the cops checking the folks in the hummers and mercd/benz' or the ones in the beat up impalla or ford pu?
i ride the bus to work every day and if they put some one there to check my id everyday i'd gladly show it, if it helped get rid of the criminals.
i'm sorry it rubs some of ya'll the wrong way but i have a hard time trusting (12 million) people whose 1st act on u.s. soil was to break the law!:banghead:
 
Flag waving

Jose said:
...
5) Any "protester" walking down an American street waving a Mexican flag ...
5) This I totally DISAGREE with. Would you stop Irish paraders at a St Paddy's day celebration (yes, I know you said protestors). This is just wrong. I can be proud of where I come from and have another flag and I should not be harrassed for that!

Jose, I see your point clearly. And I sympathise with your irritation. But I think it is misdirected. The flag you are proud of has been hijacked, and other people have the right to react to it appropriately.
If the men in my family preferentially wear green neckties, as a symbol of something in our heritage that we are proud of, and there is a rash of bank robberies by a "Green Necktie Gang", the police are going to be very suspicious of me on sight. I won't like it a bit; it will be unfair; but it won't be the police who are at fault. It will be the bas***ds who robbed the banks.

(And yes, I would check out Irish paraders under comparable circumstances; that is, if millions of illegal Irish had invaded the country, and were demanding amnesty, and rejecting assimilation, and filling the prisons with criminals.)
 
Let's also use some common sense here. After 9/11 we had a big hubbub by the lefties about profiling. This is hogwash. When dealing with people you can certainly tell if they can speak English and if they can, is it heavily accented. If either of these apply, you ask for ID. This obviously is far to easy for the average liberal to understand. Sometimes the person will pull out valid ID and everyone goes on about their business, so what ?

So in other words you would place a greater burden on citizens who have these characteristics, and deprive them of equal protection. I speak English with what most would consider an accent (and of course an Alabama accent sounds strange in MN and vice versa even for "natives"). US citizen covered under the same Constitution you are = if I have to present proof of citizenship on demand so do you. That one won't fly.

And yes, I would check out Irish paraders under comparable circumstances; that is, if millions of illegal Irish had invaded the country, and were demanding amnesty, and rejecting assimilation, and filling the prisons with criminals.)

They did all that not all that many decades ago. A lot of Hispanic folks came here quite a while ago too, either legally or not. Should we harass their (unquestionably legal, born in the US) descendents and not those of the criminal Irish immigrants?

Face it you can't Constitutionally apply any kind of check or requirement to people based on skin tone or accent, since skin tone and accents differ very widely among citizens too.

I wonder how you knew the people in the accidents were illegal? Are you trained to verify documents? Did you ask for them? Hispanics CAN be legal and still prefer to speak Spanish or have a strong accent. Same goes, with different languages of course, for other immigrants. That's why profiling does not run afoul only of namby-pamby liberal apologists, but also people who like the idea of equal rights under the Constitution. Only thing I can't do is run for Pres or Veep. Other than that, according to the guiding document of our legal system, what applies to me must apply to you too. Remember that when you ask for ID requirements.

About the only place I would agree with the first-cited poster is in prisons, and even then with a caveat. If we can prove a prisoner is illegal we should have treaties with the country he/she came from to deport them TO PRISON there. It's a bit short sighted to drop a multiple rapist/murderer etc in Tijuana and just let them go free don't you think? Any feasible border security can be overcome no matter what we do, so Senor Predator just hops back over into SD the day after you let him go and that's no damn good for anyone.
 
Hispanics CAN be legal and still prefer to speak Spanish or have a strong accent. Same goes, with different languages of course, for other immigrants.


It's not about accents. Anyone under 60 who lacks simple, basic English fluency is probably here illegally, especially if their native tongue is Spanish. "Doing it the right way" would have ensured some English competency.

We are going to have to find ways to "discriminate" in order to identify people here illegally. No way around that. It's that or just forget the whole damn thing.
 
Profiling completely unconstitutional?

dmallind said:
Face it you can't Constitutionally apply any kind of check or requirement to people based on skin tone or accent, since skin tone and accents differ very widely among citizens too

So if a crime is commited in Chinatown by a white male with an Australian accent, the police cannot ask Crocodile Dundee for ID, unless they are checking all the Chinese women, too?:confused:
 
"So in other words you would place a greater burden on citizens who have these characteristics, and deprive them of equal protection."

Yes, I would. This is just simple common sense which is something that has been lost in this country. If you can't speak English, or speak broken English, or speak with a heavy accent then you will be questioned as to your citizenship. If you are a citizen, then so what ?
Wanna hear something really remarkable ?
I have been to Mexico many times. 50 ? Many times I was asked to show proof of my citizenship when crossing the border. Big deal.

You keep trying to make a point that people from different parts of the US speak with different accents. True enough, but they are American accents. Big difference. Very few people are going to scratch their head and say, "Are you from the Bronx or from Nogales ?"
This whole argument is as ridiculous as the TSA at the airport strip searching young children.
Instead of making our top priority not hurting anyone's feelings, we instead make our top priority finding and deporting illegal aliens. Contrary to the lefties, the VAST majority of illegal alliens look, talk, and act a certain way. AND, it isn't hard to pick them out.

"I wonder how you knew the people in the accidents were illegal? Are you trained to verify documents? Did you ask for them?
1) Ridiculous PC question. Let's just say, I am gifted that way.
2) Yes, when they don't have any documents AND can't speak English I started to get the hint.
3) Did you ask for them. Yes. However I asked in English. That was probably my first mistake.
 
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