Gunman at church, what would you do?
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ZeSpectre
Member
I'll say the same thing here I say every time someone brings up these scenarios.
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE... If you see one badguy you absolutely MUST assume that there are more present.
If not then fine but you do NOT want to move too fast and wind up getting shot by the scum's backup/accomplices because you focused too closely on the obvious threat.
Please, keep this in mind when you consider what you might or might not do in such a scenario.
Also, there is nothing wrong with "running the scenarios" in your mind ahead of time so you have some sort of emergency plan in place. I do the same thing for fire and other household hazards even though I've never had a fire or a gas leak in the house in 40 years. As they say "after the whistle blows is no time to come up with a game plan".
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE... If you see one badguy you absolutely MUST assume that there are more present.
If not then fine but you do NOT want to move too fast and wind up getting shot by the scum's backup/accomplices because you focused too closely on the obvious threat.
Please, keep this in mind when you consider what you might or might not do in such a scenario.
Also, there is nothing wrong with "running the scenarios" in your mind ahead of time so you have some sort of emergency plan in place. I do the same thing for fire and other household hazards even though I've never had a fire or a gas leak in the house in 40 years. As they say "after the whistle blows is no time to come up with a game plan".
wheelgunslinger
Member
I voted Other:
I'm not a Christian or church/temple/mosque goer, so it's a non-issue for me.
I was actually in a Christian church once when some dissenting splinter group types decided to take over the service and "convince" everyone to go their way by means of taking the stage and posting guys at each stair leading up to the pulpit. Everyone froze. No one moved a muscle. They all just let it happen. Even the alleged sheepdogs.
It was non-violent but disconcerting to see guys posting up in an obviously confrontational stance that said "You're not going to interrupt."
I've never forgotten that situation and how all the alleged leaders and toughguys (this was in Texas- lots of F350 cowboys) sat rooted and did nothing.
You absolutely can not count on other people to take action and be assertive in a situation like this. It's too surreal.
So, for what it's worth, it may or may not be up to you. Engaging can have high costs if you miss and hit good guys- chances are you'll hit a mom, kid, or elderly person. Not engaging can let you wind up dead, and then the bad guy can get your gun and then have more weapons and ammo. Running for the exit and leaving everyone on their own can leave you with some serious guilt issues- possibly. There are no easy answers in this type of situation for Christians.
I'm not a Christian or church/temple/mosque goer, so it's a non-issue for me.
I was actually in a Christian church once when some dissenting splinter group types decided to take over the service and "convince" everyone to go their way by means of taking the stage and posting guys at each stair leading up to the pulpit. Everyone froze. No one moved a muscle. They all just let it happen. Even the alleged sheepdogs.
It was non-violent but disconcerting to see guys posting up in an obviously confrontational stance that said "You're not going to interrupt."
I've never forgotten that situation and how all the alleged leaders and toughguys (this was in Texas- lots of F350 cowboys) sat rooted and did nothing.
You absolutely can not count on other people to take action and be assertive in a situation like this. It's too surreal.
So, for what it's worth, it may or may not be up to you. Engaging can have high costs if you miss and hit good guys- chances are you'll hit a mom, kid, or elderly person. Not engaging can let you wind up dead, and then the bad guy can get your gun and then have more weapons and ammo. Running for the exit and leaving everyone on their own can leave you with some serious guilt issues- possibly. There are no easy answers in this type of situation for Christians.
preachnhunt
Member
As the pastor I would first explain to him that whatever he was upset about was my fault and I won't do it again. If that didn't work I would ask him if he had a church family; which almost always sends them running for the exits. As a last resort we would form a committee and study the situation which is GUARANTEED to keep anything from ever happening in our lifetime.
SSN Vet
Member
shoot him in the back.....only to find out that it was a dramatic element of a sermon illustration.......
I suppose you could tackle him from behind...
or draw your piece, move into position and enact t.v. cop show tactics by commanding "drop the weapon, hands in the air"
but in all likelyhood, if the gunman's intentions were evil, they would be acted out within a milisecond of you noticing him.
Get the ones your in charge of down, and look for an opportunity to neutralize the threat....
you're going to have to close the distance if you want to take on a gunman armed with an assult rifle with a PM9. I don't give you (or anyone behind the target) very good odds if you're planning on trading shots at 20 paces.
I suppose you could tackle him from behind...
or draw your piece, move into position and enact t.v. cop show tactics by commanding "drop the weapon, hands in the air"
but in all likelyhood, if the gunman's intentions were evil, they would be acted out within a milisecond of you noticing him.
Get the ones your in charge of down, and look for an opportunity to neutralize the threat....
you're going to have to close the distance if you want to take on a gunman armed with an assult rifle with a PM9. I don't give you (or anyone behind the target) very good odds if you're planning on trading shots at 20 paces.
SSN Vet
Member
PURE GENIUS!!!
SSN Vet
Member
as opposed to what? a violent altercation to stop the unthinkable act of speaking up for your convictions.
Entrances are locked and manned.
Parking lot is patrolled.
Our church typically seats >1000 for worship service, so it's possible that a BG could slip in among the congregation. We are not prepared for this. Several of our members have CCW permits, and might do fine in a 1-on-1 confrontation elsewhere, but frankly I would fear for the innocents, if they tried tried to fire on a BG in church -- not to mention a ND even if a BG never showed up. (We have CCW permit holders that range from the infirm to the over-zealous and they all mean well, but the liability can't be ignored.)
We feel that the training necessary to carry weapons in our church must go beyond the beyond the CCW qualifier. Currently, specific training requirements are being determined for this purpose and then, we will have certain armed members in attendance. Our pastor is wise not to simply authorize CC for all permit holders in our membership -- which is his perogative according to our state law.
Parking lot is patrolled.
Our church typically seats >1000 for worship service, so it's possible that a BG could slip in among the congregation. We are not prepared for this. Several of our members have CCW permits, and might do fine in a 1-on-1 confrontation elsewhere, but frankly I would fear for the innocents, if they tried tried to fire on a BG in church -- not to mention a ND even if a BG never showed up. (We have CCW permit holders that range from the infirm to the over-zealous and they all mean well, but the liability can't be ignored.)
We feel that the training necessary to carry weapons in our church must go beyond the beyond the CCW qualifier. Currently, specific training requirements are being determined for this purpose and then, we will have certain armed members in attendance. Our pastor is wise not to simply authorize CC for all permit holders in our membership -- which is his perogative according to our state law.
I'd shoot him, before the situation escalated. Imagine if he took a hostage? Not much chance for a shot then. Or if he shot someone, or some people? If he takes you out (possibly the only armed person there, and no one knows your carrying, so they can't use the weapon), everyone else is at his mercy.
B.D. Turner
Member
Chruch armed robberies are not a new thing. A local church here was robbed in 1978 by three teenagers. They busted in guns in hand, and robbed everyone. This is way out in the country. Don't worry the long arm of the law released all of them in 2001. If justice was so strong today...
wheelgunslinger
Member
A swing and a miss.
ROVERMAN
Member
That situation could play out in many ways. Everyone is assuming what will happen (and they are probably right) but as I recall from an old movie quote "Assumption is the mother of all ---- ups!" With the liberal nature of our judges and courts it would be wise to review the criteria that is required in the use of deadly force as dictated by your states' CCW laws. I personally would push my family to the floor, draw my weapon, draw the guys attention (where I did not have shoot him in the back) and then put one right in his snot locker! Just my opinion.
I think every instructor I have ever utilized would say that is a terrible plan. The plan starts out great w/ protecting your family. Your plan falls apart after that. That being said, my approval is not required for your decisions. Good luck.ROVERMAN said:
enfield303
Member
THis would be the opportune time to insert a comment about the "Church Ninja".
My church has 3 guys(myself included) that CCW. one of them does not attend much, and the other is my girlfriend's dad. He and I have discussed this over ribs and beer. tough call. my job is to get the GF out the door and return to see what I can do about aforementioned scumbag.
My church has 3 guys(myself included) that CCW. one of them does not attend much, and the other is my girlfriend's dad. He and I have discussed this over ribs and beer. tough call. my job is to get the GF out the door and return to see what I can do about aforementioned scumbag.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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'Course, the preacher could suddenly start preachin 'bout giving til it hurts - that might scare them away!
I am assuming JShirley's comment refered to "two in the thoracic, one in the ocular-cranial."
I believe a paraphrase of Denzel in "Man on Fire" puts my opinion of this matter to bed: "Forgiveness is between them and God, it's my job to arrange the meeting."
I believe a paraphrase of Denzel in "Man on Fire" puts my opinion of this matter to bed: "Forgiveness is between them and God, it's my job to arrange the meeting."
Sans Authoritas
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In all likelihood, and if he were coming from behind, the assailant's first shot would be everyone's first warning that there was a threat. In such a case, it's already time to stop the threat.
-Sans Authoritas
-Sans Authoritas
RocketmanVT
Member
I'd get my family on the floor (VERY quietly and quickly), draw down on the armed man and say something that would get him to turn around, then empty my weapon into him.
THEN worry about whether I was gonna go to jail for firing first, since the current state of the judicial system seems to be such that the criminals have far more rights than do we ("Your Honor, my client was shot while merely carrying a loaded rifle in a church, on his way to speak to his soon-to-be ex-wife...)
But, as the old saying goes, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. And with the recent spate of church and school shootings, I think I could easily expect a hung jury on the verdict...And the rifle-carrying loony is no longer a threat to anyone.
THEN worry about whether I was gonna go to jail for firing first, since the current state of the judicial system seems to be such that the criminals have far more rights than do we ("Your Honor, my client was shot while merely carrying a loaded rifle in a church, on his way to speak to his soon-to-be ex-wife...)
But, as the old saying goes, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. And with the recent spate of church and school shootings, I think I could easily expect a hung jury on the verdict...And the rifle-carrying loony is no longer a threat to anyone.
wristtwister
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Quoheleth,
it amazes me that churches don't bother to actually consider what kind of problem scenarios can occur and plan for them. While it's one thing to want to save someone's soul, it's entirely another to stand by and allow them to commit murder in the congregation.
Churches, like businesses, have to provide a safe place to work... and a lack of security at my office is no less a problem if I'm sitting in the pew listening to your sermon and happen to work at the church. It's surprising how many people have been killed in churches in recent years, and while the community outrage is always great, it's also "after the fact"... where a little planning would have the perp's friends and family grieving instead of the congregation.
I have an 8th degree in jujutsu, and have been training for almost 45 years, but whether or not I could wrest a firearm from a determined killer before the mayhem occurred is questionable, depending on both how skilled they were, and how much distance was between us. If I had my gun... the distance problem goes away, and there's no question that I would stop him. Unlike the shooting at Virginia Tech, where "duck and cover" was the only option, shooting back cures a lot of situations before they get out of hand. It's harder to shoot innocent people when you're dodging gunfire yourself.
The most innocuous firearm cover you can imagine is a Bible cover... and I have a friend who carries two Bibles to church... one with the word, and one with the 9x18 Makarov. It's a trick he learned in Russia. He has a hollowed out book with his firearm inside.
I don't suggest that you turn your church into an armed camp, but there's nothing wrong with having the flock protected. Our church has "foot patrols" that tour our parking lots because we've had people break into cars and church buildings while services were going on... and it's only one step up to having it turn into a violent encounter.
Unfortunately, in South Carolina, you have to have the church's permission to concealed carry in the building... but anyone who's actually up on what's going on in America these days should lean toward having some armed help in the congregation rather than trying to duck and cover. Our church family is elderly, and many of them would probably never move out of the way.
It's a ticklish situation, whether the pastor is packin' or the "flock"... but somebody better be these days.
WT
it amazes me that churches don't bother to actually consider what kind of problem scenarios can occur and plan for them. While it's one thing to want to save someone's soul, it's entirely another to stand by and allow them to commit murder in the congregation.
Churches, like businesses, have to provide a safe place to work... and a lack of security at my office is no less a problem if I'm sitting in the pew listening to your sermon and happen to work at the church. It's surprising how many people have been killed in churches in recent years, and while the community outrage is always great, it's also "after the fact"... where a little planning would have the perp's friends and family grieving instead of the congregation.
I have an 8th degree in jujutsu, and have been training for almost 45 years, but whether or not I could wrest a firearm from a determined killer before the mayhem occurred is questionable, depending on both how skilled they were, and how much distance was between us. If I had my gun... the distance problem goes away, and there's no question that I would stop him. Unlike the shooting at Virginia Tech, where "duck and cover" was the only option, shooting back cures a lot of situations before they get out of hand. It's harder to shoot innocent people when you're dodging gunfire yourself.
The most innocuous firearm cover you can imagine is a Bible cover... and I have a friend who carries two Bibles to church... one with the word, and one with the 9x18 Makarov. It's a trick he learned in Russia. He has a hollowed out book with his firearm inside.
I don't suggest that you turn your church into an armed camp, but there's nothing wrong with having the flock protected. Our church has "foot patrols" that tour our parking lots because we've had people break into cars and church buildings while services were going on... and it's only one step up to having it turn into a violent encounter.
Unfortunately, in South Carolina, you have to have the church's permission to concealed carry in the building... but anyone who's actually up on what's going on in America these days should lean toward having some armed help in the congregation rather than trying to duck and cover. Our church family is elderly, and many of them would probably never move out of the way.
It's a ticklish situation, whether the pastor is packin' or the "flock"... but somebody better be these days.
WT
Remember that the BG is past you and getting further away quickly, AND is being spotted by others who will begin to panic and run any second. The chance of an instant kill is small, and a 30 shot mag emptied by a dying BG in a crowded church will forever leave you to ponder your decision...that, plus the fact that you just HAD to have that +P+ stuff would almost invariably lead to secondary damage. Of course, there is no "right" answer to this , as the number of variables is too many. That said, keeping the family safe will always be "right"!
Titan6
member
Well if he was at a sermon here then it would not really be a problem. I'd probably motion to him to have a seat in the back since they had already started the services. If I were at home then this:
Is pretty close. Of course I would likely move to intercede, probably from behind if possible.
Is pretty close. Of course I would likely move to intercede, probably from behind if possible.
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