Gunman at church, what would you do?

[DarkSoldier]

I carry every Sunday with my pastor's blessing. Reading nothing into the scenario but what is in the OP, I'd drop him like a bad habit with well placed shots to the back of the head. My wife would already be going to the floor if she was not armed, which she often is. If armed she'd have my back in the tight 360 we've practiced and practiced. Scan for more bad guys, reloading as soon as safe. De-escalate as the situation permits. Wife calls 911 and my lawyer. It will be an bad afternoon and evening.

If the guy came to the sheep fold looking for helpless victims, he miscalculated.

Not advice, a recommendation, or instruction, just my thoughts.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[Thernlund]

I think it's funny how many people say they'd evac their family first. *heh* My family would probably open fire before me, awakening me from my nap.




-T.

 

[Pilgrim]

I can't do anything. One of the church staff got threatened by her psycho ex-husband, and the solution put forward by the cops who do security as a ministry was to post the church.

I'm curious. Was the decision to post a unilateral decision of the cops who do security, or was it agreed upon by the church board?

Pilgrim

 

[Defensory]

Evacuation of family may not be practical or even possible. It depends entirely on the situation.

If I didn't think a safe evac was possible, I'd have them lie flat on the floor underneath the pew. I would then take appropriate action to stop the perpetrator.

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

I would shoot the man with the gun I am carrying, or my pastor would shoot him with the gun he would have, or my fellow believers/peers would shoot the gunman.

When we do have bible study, worship, gathering, fellowship, etc, everybody is armed. We're firm believers in being armed.

I myself am studying to become a preacher (it'll be about a decade long process for me), and I urge my listeners, friends, etc, to arm themselves and remain as armed as legally possible.

 

[meef]

Why, I'd praise the Lord and pass the ammunition....

One round at a time in rapid succession.







scenarios scenarios scenarios........

 

[ridata]

Our pastor is wise not to simply authorize CC for all permit holders in our membership -- which is his perogative according to our state law.

I would question the notion that that action of your pastor's is wise. I can see where it might possibly be fine if he knows there are a number of members (and he himself) who always carry, are trained for it, and are there every week. Otherwise you're barring what could be protection. Do you have a problem with people, untrained as they may be, carrying in public all the time?
If it is posted no ccw, which I'm assuming it wouldn't be in your church, then it is a terrible idea. If it isn't, then I suppose everyone will carry anyway, and if the pastor tells them not to, leave.

As to the posts regarding a man with a gun being a sermon demonstration, I'd advise you talk to your pastor and make it clear how you feel about the subject. That you and others with weapons may not be able to tell if he is a BG or not, and to play it safe with whoever it would be doing the demonstration, leave that part out of the sermon.

 

[Floppy_D]

Preventative measures first... stop going.

 

[marineman]

When someone comes into church with an AR, he has crossed the point of sanity. He is a threat to everyone and should be shot down.

 

[1776 Rebel]

Great poll question !

I answered other. I would tell my family quietly to move past me and start to leave the church. If they required a kick in the butt to do so I would. Then I would take position aiming at the target (watching for the area beyond the target downrange). Screaming "drop the weapon". Instantly if he did not drop it and moved I would begin to shoot until out of ammo or the threat neutralized.

You need to scream "drop the weapon" to both inform all the people around you and for legal reasons. Once that is done any movement on his part can be construed as an act of grave aggression because of the weapon. Life or death at that point.

 

[JShirley]

You need to scream "drop the weapon" to both inform all the people around you and for legal reasons.

Baloney. There are always a few requirements for the use of deadly force*:

1. The attacker must have the ability to cause grave bodily harm to you or others;
2. The attacker must have the desire to do same;
(or, you must be in a situation where a reasonable man would believe these things. A screaming individual who points what is later found to be a BB gun at you would appear to a reasonable individual to have both 1 & 2).

3. Depending on where you live, you may have a duty to retreat if possible.

Now, nowhere in there do you see a damned thing about verbal challenge. If you are not law enforcement, and you are confronting someone who appears to have the means and the desire to kill you, you're a damn fool if you give him the opportunity.

Now, in the military, you're given a use of force continuum to escalate through, but it's always made clear that you can skip to the last step if called for:

Shout (verbal compliance)
Shove (physical force)
Show (threat of deadly force)
Shoot

The time to yell "drop the weapon" is when you're NOT certain if the potential BG is actually carrying a weapon! This gives the person a chance to "come to Jesus" and not get shot if he's not a legitimate threat, and it also tells those around you that you believe you're facing a deadly threat. If it's obvious, there's no. damn. need.

*In a few areas, there are additional reasons one can employ (potentially) deadly force, such as preventing arson.

John, hoping to save a life

 

[1776 Rebel]

Jshirley, if you have checked this with a lawyer than I guess those are the rules.

As an aside if you want to see what the potential consequences are of not being armed in a public situation take a look at this article. I live not far from this dinner. It is in an affluent neighborhood. Just close to highways. This will scare the crap out of you.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7A25750C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

[JShirley]

That is what I was taught before being authorized to carry on the job in Ohio back in 1994, and it's what I was taught by a Police Officer Standards and Training-certified trainer in GA.

Off the top of my head, feel free to ask mods Matt G, Jeff White, Coronach, or Johnny Guest, who are all current or former peace officers, if this is correct. PM them if you're not comfortable starting a threat about it.

I'm concerned, really. The thing is, we've been brainwashed by TV. If you're in deadly fear for your life, and you have a good reason for it, you don't have to give the BG(s) more time to hurt you before you defend yourself.

Regards,

John

 

[marineman]

You need to scream "drop the weapon" to both inform all the people around you and for legal reasons.

If he was suicidal, screaming "drop the weapon" may make him think the gig is up and he might fire shots and kill/injure people before you could fire. While it probably would help you legally, I think that in a crowded church, it may be dangerous. If the shooter had an intended target and did not want to die, he may surrender or run. The situation has so many possible scenarios that it is difficult to say what you should do. However, I do believe that you should make every effort to fire the first shots whether you give him warning or not.

 

[GEM]

Tacoma Mall - civilian CCW type decides to chat - gets shot.

Very simple in an active shooter situation.

 

[kcshooter]

You need to scream "drop the weapon" to....

...get you and/or someone else shot.


Turn off the TV.




I can't believe the poll has over 20 people waiting until the guy opens fire to shoot back. Scary.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I picked other. My option is that I just don't go to church... yeah sue me. I guess in the scenario you mentioned, I would just shoot the guy immediately after I saw him enter the church with a battle rifle... if I had a clean shot.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Interesting idea. Considering my church has 4 services a week and has to remove someone on average once per two weeks we are somewhat well prepared. We have four REAL security guys as members that are also hired by the church (what a convenient job) to act as traffic control before and after services and armed ushers just outside the sanctuary during. One of them also works the pistol counter at a good local gunshop during the week.We have had jokes about a "church gun" inside the pulpit for years although its existence is still unknown. Considering the members I have met at the range or have swapped hunting stories with, I think at least 5% of the congregation is probably armed.

 

[alsaqr]

My wife and I attend a cowboy church. I pack in church and so do a lot of other folks. A gunman in our church (an arena) would not last very long.

 

[Sistema1927]

It all kind of depends upon which door the gunman enters and what he is doing and who is around him and whether it is before, during, or after the service and...and...and...and...

(In other words, none of us will know until the opportunity presents. It is one thing to be prepared, and quite another to plan all the contingencies related to the acts of a madman.)

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Preventative measures first... stop going.

Same here, though it has little to nothing to do with a gunman.

 

[weisse52]

Tell wife and daughter to "get outta Dodge", engage and neutralize...Or at least that is what I think I would do..

On the Internet we all would do the right thing. Lets hope we practice and train to do what we have said would do.

 

[Zip7]

Gunman at church, what would you do?

Pray?

 

[jon_in_wv]

I voted that I would get my family out first. THEN I would try to stop him. If I confront him he may shoot and kill my family. I have a duty to them first. Then to the other families whose Fathers chose not to have the means to defend them. Thats not the nicest thing but thats what it boils down to.

 

[Jimtexan]

I cannot find the original situation detailed anywhere in here.