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Gunman Kills 5 in Utah Mall

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SALT LAKE CITY - A historic mall's winding hallways became a shooting gallery for an 18-year-old gunman in a trench coat who fired a shotgun randomly at customers, killing five and wounding four before being killed by police, authorities and witnesses said.

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The shooter, whose name was not released, also was armed with a handgun and had several rounds of ammunition, Salt Lake City police Detective Robin Snyder said early Tuesday. No motive has yet been determined, she said.

For hours after Monday evening's rampage at the Trolley Square shopping mall, police searched stores for scared, shocked shoppers and employees who were hunkered down awaiting a safe escort.

Marie Smith, 23, a Bath & Body Works manager, saw the gunman through the store window. She watched as he raised his gun and fired at a young woman approaching him from behind.

"His expression stayed totally calm. He didn't seem upset, or like he was on a rampage," said Smith, who crawled to safety in an employee restroom to hide with others. She said the gunman looked like "an average Joe."

Killed were two 28-year-old women, a 52-year-old man, a 24-year-old man and a 15-year-old girl, Snyder said. Four people were hospitalized — a man and a woman in critical condition and two men in serious condition, Snyder said.

Matt Lund was visiting his wife, Barbara, manager of the Secret Garden children's clothing store, when he heard the first shots. The couple and three others hid in a storage room for about 40 minutes, isolated but still able to hear the violence.

"We heard them say, 'Police! Drop your weapon!' Then we heard shotgun fire. Then there was a barrage of gunfire," said Lund, 44. "It was hard to believe."

They say officers treated everyone like suspects — ordering those hiding in storerooms, bathrooms or under stairwells, to lie on the floor with their hands on their heads until police were sure no one posed a threat.

On the way out, Lund said, he saw a woman's body face-down at the entrance to Pottery Barn Kids and a man's body on the floor in the mall's east-west corridor. "There were a lot of blown-out store windows and shotgun shell casings all over the floor," Lund said. "It was quite surreal."

The victims were found throughout the 239,000-square-foot shopping mall.

Outside, streets were blocked as police swarmed the four-block scene. Dozens of people lingered on the sidewalk, many wrapped in blankets, as they talked about what they had seen inside.

The two-story mall, southeast of downtown, is a refurbished trolley barn built in 1908, with a series of winding hallways, brick floors, wrought-iron balconies and about 80 stores, including high-end retailers such as Williams-Sonoma and restaurants such as the Hard Rock Cafe.

Antique store owner Barrett Dodds, 29, said he saw a man in a trench coat exchanging gunfire with a police officer outside a card store. The gunman, he said, was backed into a children's clothing store.

"I saw the shooter go down," said Dodds, who watched from the second floor.

Four police officers — one an off-duty officer from Ogden and three Salt Lake City officers — were involved in the shootout with the gunman, Snyder said. She provided no other details.

Barb McKeown, 60, of Washington, D.C., was in another antique shop when two frantic women ran in and reported gunshots.

"Then we heard shot after shot after shot — loud, loud, loud," said McKeown, saying she heard about 20. She and three other people hid under a staircase until it was safe to leave.
 
The story has been edited. The link said nothing about a "Teen" gunman when I posted it , and stated that an off duty policeman was the one that brought the shooter down. odd:scrutiny:
 
Fox News was reporting this morning that the murderer was in his 20s or 30s.

Several points:

Do they have legal CCW in Utah?

Was the mall posted against non-police CCW?

How much time elapsed between the time the killer started shooting and the off duty cop shooting him? If the mall was posted, how much sooner would the killer have likely been shot by a non-cop if it hadn't been?

Since the killer was reported to have used a shotgun, will Rudy Giuliani, Chuck Schumer et al call for the banning of shotguns?
 
Dunno about the mall, but Utah is a great CCW state. Getting a Utah permit for us out of staters is kinda like getting a Florida one. Lots of states recognize it.

Much like the school shootings and the Columbine shootings, the killer used weapons that wouldn't be covered by the AWB. So what's the gun grabber response likely to be? Yup, you guessed it...ban "assault weapons". :rolleyes:
 
It takes a lot of cajones to face a guy with a shotgun armed only with a handgun. Glad that it wasn't any worse than it was.

As we all know, the "antis" will grab hold of this incident in order to promote more "control". One has to wonder just how many existing laws this shooter chose to disobey and how the addition of more would have made a difference.
 
Info I've heard on the news

This is what I have heard or read so far. There's more info available on Yahoo, KSL.com, deseretnews.com, and an article in the New York Times.

Killer was 17, as yet unidentified.

One of the five fatalities was a 15-year-old girl.
There are 2-3 victims in area hospitals in critical condition and one in serious condition.

Trolley Square would have been open to CCW.

Typical places completely closed in Utah are courtrooms and airports.
Some private property owners and churches request no CCW but violators are asked to leave, charged with a misdemeanor if they don't comply. Businesses usually have a "no weapons" clause in their employment handbook, but this is for liability purposes only, since it's cheaper to bury an employee than deal with legal consequences of armed self-defense.

All the news reports about this tragedy prove the adage:
Sheep have two modes: graze and stampede.

Glad there was a brave sheepdog present, just not soon enough.
 
Given the location and circumstances, how many if us would step out from cover to take this guy down? Most CCW strategy books recommend protecting your area until police arrive and to shoot only if the BG comes for you. I've seen at least one post on this subject before and most agree to establish a defensive area and wait. If this guy was on the move, like the article suggest, he would have to be hunted down, a very non-defensive situation. It would take a nut-job of a prosecutor to try to convict you for taking down a gunman, but we all know how many of those there are.

All of that being said, if I was in position of defense and saw this guy randomly gunning people down, I think I'd have the guts (not to mention moral duty) to take him down. Police aren't always there at the right time, and kudos to the off-duty one that got this guy. More CCW is the best answer to a situation like this, but I can almost guarantee that that mall is going to have NO Firearms signs up everywhere, thus making a repeat even more likely.
 
More CCW is the best answer to a situation like this, but I can almost guarantee that that mall is going to have NO Firearms signs up everywhere, thus making a repeat even more likely.

Agree with more CCW. The other is very unlikely since the Utah legislature is the only entity to allow that to happen. Besides, "concealed" is "out of sight, out of mind."

Since we're talking scenarios here... what if you were the first person to see this armed guy walking toward the mall?

"Yo homie, is that my shotgun?"

Then when the shtf you'd better be quicker on the draw with your CCW than he can swing around and plug you. THEN, what would be the legal fallout since he had NOT as yet killed anyone? "CCW plugs 17-year old at mall".

Personally, I'd consider lurking and following to see what he was up to, then be close enough to challenge at the first sign of hostility, with the phrase "POLICE! Don't move!" to get their attention, then shoot if he presents a threat. Bystanders might say I identified myself as police, but I would say I was calling for police, or saying "please".
 
Disturbing...

This is an article from the UK Daily Mail, and it shows one of the most painful scenes...

This is what comes from the inculcation of a self-delusional mindset among our people: that no one ever "needs" a gun, that "gun-free" is "crime-free". In a concealed carry state, there is no good reason for anyone to be unarmed, but for the filthy lies of a cadre of anti-gun zealots. Those zealots, those murderers (yes, I said it!), share the blood-guilt of the animal who pulled the trigger.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=435831&in_page_id=1811&ct=5
 
Let's not rehash what we already know about the utility of CCW, okay? We've done that a gazilion times. And such belongs in the S&T forum, anyway.

We know, also, that people go off their rockers and kill for no apparent reason. Why emulate the Star or other tabloids? This ain't the Daily Blat.

If something significant shows up as hard information in the news in a few days, there may be something worth discussing.

Art
 
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