Utah gunman, 18, was Muslim from Bosnia

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The guy's name is Sulejmen Talovic. He's from Bosnia. Now maybe it's just a coincidence that Sulejmen sounds a lot like Suliman/Suleiman/Suleyman, the man who brought Islam, dripping from a bloody sword, to Bosnia, but I think it's a safe bet that Sulejmen is in fact a Muslim.

The Seige of Vienna is thought to be the greatest reach of Islam into Europe [compare with Tours almost 1000 years earlier]. Whether they could have kept going after taking the city is debatable, but that they wanted to is beyond debate.

As to the consequences of a Muslim conquest of Europe, you need only look to any place in the world that Muslims conquered to see what it does to the standard of living.
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Bingo. Tours, Vienna, Malta, Constantinople - the list of Muslim aggression is endless. And we own our survival to men whose names should be on the lips of every Western schoolchild: The Hammer, Hunyadi, Don John, Sobieski - the list is endless.

Thanks for bringing the truth back into the discussion. Those weaned on the bogus self esteem educational establishment are not equipped to appreciated the pearls you cast before them.
 
The irrational fear of Muslims some members seem to have is the same type of irrational fear the brady bunch anti-gun types show toward gun owners.
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It would be irrational NOT to fear Muslims. If you doubt me READ THE KORAN. I'm sure the fellow who runs this board is a standup guy. But if he follows the dictates of the KORAN he can only be guaranteed entry into heaven through jihad - killing infidels. He cannot have a friend who is an infidel. He must lie to infidels to promote the interests of his religion. He believes that women are inferior to men. His religion teaches him that rape and pillage and slaughter are the legitimate booty of war. And furthermore war against the infidel is mandatory until and unless the infidel accepts his inferior status and pays a tax, or is enslaved, converted or killed.

According the the Koran Jihad is a religious obligation. It is a religious duty which the devout Muslim must perform. The Koran teaches that it is the manifest destiny for Muslims to conquer the world. And remember, before you try and draw a moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity remember: Muslims who kill are following the dictates of their "religion." Christians who do so are ignoring the words of Christ.
 
It is politically incorrect to refer to "Islamic terrorism" in our dhimmi-left's eyes, even after 9-11.

The phrase must be more like "terrorists who abusively invoke Islam" (this is from Mark Steyn's 'America Alone', an excellent book).

So here, a Muslim or an atheist can speak out against Judeo-Christianity.

Could a Christian or an atheist speak out against Islam in an Islamic country? Just try it!

Even here, if you speak a little too critically or draw a wrong cartoon, you will have to live in hiding, like Salman Rushdie. Or you may be shot while pedalling your bicycle, then partially beheaded, and left with an Islamofascist hate note pinned to your chest by a dagger, the way Theo van Gogh was.

So being concerned about guys with Muslim names murdering innocent shoppers in a mall isn't being paranoid or bigoted. It is being prudent. Bad-mouthing white Christians is bigoted.
 
It is obvious to me that some people will not be satisfied until there is a "final solution" to the "Muslim problem".
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The only final solution being contemplated and shouted from the highest parapets of the world is by the Muslims. And every single day they are taught that Christians are apes and pigs. Again the smarmy insinuation that by defending ourselves we are equivalent or worse than those who would kill us is beyond belief.
 
Yeah, O.K., history lesson aside, do we know anymore about his motives?

He could have just been off his meds, or delusional about Columbine or The Basketball Diaries, or whatever. Heck the Colorado Killers had a thing about Hitler and high school jocks.

At 18, a long way from home, there could be three dozen motives for him to go mad dog other than the need to fulfill some sort of alleged "religious duty".
 
The irrational, overblown inferences that this incident is yet more proof that the Muslim Bogeyman walks among us, ready to rape and kill us all, because, gosh, doncha know them Moozlims is all a bunch of evil backwards terrists, who hate us God-fearin' Christians/Jews/Whatever cuz they hate our enlightened goodness.
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There is no Muslim bogeyman. The Muslim threat is very real. Nothing irrational whatsoever. Whether or not this particular crime was religiously motivated remains to be seen, but make no mistake: these folks are out to kill YOU. Don't believe it? Just read the Koran. Don't believe it? Just listen to their spokesmen. Don't believe it? Ask 1.5 million Armenians. Don't believe it? Ask 250 thousand East Timorans. Don't believe it? Ask any Sudanese Christian. Don't believe it? Ask the Greeks or the Hungarians who within recent memory have suffered under the lash of the Muslim. No, my friend, the threat is not irrational. Only refusing to recognize the threat is irrational.
 
Originally Posted by Utahminirevolver:

It is politically incorrect to refer to "Islamic terrorism" in our dhimmi-left's eyes, even after 9-11.

The phrase must be more like "terrorists who abusively invoke Islam" (this is from Mark Steyn's 'America Alone', an excellent book).

So here, a Muslim or an atheist can speak out against Judeo-Christianity.

Could a Christian or an atheist speak out against Islam in an Islamic country? Just try it!

Even here, if you speak a little too critically or draw a wrong cartoon, you will have to live in hiding, like Salman Rushdie. Or you may be shot while pedalling your bicycle, then partially beheaded, and left with an Islamofascist hate note pinned to your chest by a dagger, the way Theo van Gogh was.

So being concerned about guys with Muslim names murdering innocent shoppers in a mall isn't being paranoid or bigoted. It is being prudent. Bad-mouthing white Christians is bigoted.
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What does a Christian being in a Muslim country have to do with anything? What does a Muslim speaking out against Christianity have to do with anything? Are we in a Christian country?


Originally posted by Charles Martel:
It would be irrational NOT to fear Muslims. If you doubt me READ THE KORAN. I'm sure the fellow who runs this board is a standup guy. But if he follows the dictates of the KORAN he can only be guaranteed entry into heaven through jihad - killing infidels. He cannot have a friend who is an infidel. He must lie to infidels to promote the interests of his religion. He believes that women are inferior to men. His religion teaches him that rape and pillage and slaughter are the legitimate booty of war. And furthermore war against the infidel is mandatory until and unless the infidel accepts his inferior status and pays a tax, or is enslaved, coverted or killed.

According the the Koran Jihad is a religious obligation. It is a religious duty which the devout Muslim must perform. The Koran teaches that it is the manifest destiny for Muslims to conquer the world. And remember, before you try and draw a moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity remember: Muslims who kill are following the dictates of their "religion." Christians who do so are ignoring the words of Christ.
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Could you point out these verses and chapters in the Koran? Your making a lot of wild eyed hateful remarks and I would like some evidence of it. Not just what you think but actual facts that the children are being taught to hate Christians.

Thanks.
 
Out of 443 articles on Sulejmen Talovic on Google News only 6 mention that he was Muslim.
 
Yeah, not enough info yet.

He may be a "garden variety" nutjob like any number of previous nutjobs.

Or he may believe he was excercising his duty to kill infidels based on the various preachings of the militants overseas.

The former would be sad, but in the larger scheme not a big deal. In a population of 300 million, someone is bound to go nutsy every now and again.

The latter would be a very disturbing, although entirely predicable, precendent. Well not precedent exactly, there was the guy with the SUV in NC last year. And the guy with the pistol in LAX back in what... 2001?

It'll prolly come out which is was in the next few days. No sense pontificating further till then.

-K
 
I do not think a "final solution" is needed for Muslims at all. However, a "final solution" for radical Islamo-facists that are hell bent on killing everyone that is NOT a hardliner Muslim is needed. They tell all of us to convert or be put down by the sword, they kill their own fellow Muslims that are not of the same twisted vein as them. If someone can explain to me why these guys do NOT need a good killin and are just mis-understood, I am ALL ears.

I worked with a large number of Muslims in Afghanistan and the over wheming majority are good, hard working folks that are just like you and I. Sure you can pull all kinds of "kill the infidel" quotes from the Koran. But you can do the same thing from the Bible and the Torah. The point being that because you belong to a particular religion does not mean that you are a radical. There are plenty of radicals on all sides. If you can not tell the difference between the two, I would submit that maybe you are a radical......

Now with the police investigating the link between this individual and a radical Mosque here in SLC, time will tell what the real story is (hopefully). Given that most suicide bombers and terrorists are Muslim males between the ages or 18 and 25, we have to take a serious look at this. Most are reported as being quiet and stand-offish in nature. Which is exactly what they are saying about this lad. But could it also be that he is just another wack-job like the shooters in CO?

If he was a terrorist on his own little Jihad, he was an idiot. I would have gone to Temple Square. Hit the Infidels where they have their seat of power. The effect would have been much greater on the local population. Muslim or not, so far the locals seem to think he is just a wack job.

Please keep the tinfoil hat "every Muslim is bad" crap where it belongs, in the toilet, over on Stormfront.
 
If there were radical Christian terrorists killing people on an international scale...you bet I'd be interested in the denomination and motives of a mall shooter.

We don't know the details...but I'm sure interested. Oh, and my life depends on muslims every time I go outside the wire...I'm not with a bunch of Americans. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the nature and motives of violent attacks in my country. If he was a garden variety whackadoo, then "muslim" don't matter. We don't know yet...may never know.
 
Shooting took place three blocks from the shooter's mosque. Methinks that homeland security should investigate the Iman's teachings...see if he is spouting hate mongering rhetoric like many are doing in the US. Is this an unfair request? What really bothers me is the misdirection of information. Yesterday, all around Utah, they mispronoucned the shooter's first name as Solomon...inferences that he was Jewish! For crying out loud...first news out from the media was the "long black raincoat" Columbine scenario. Oh, why did he do it? What is wrong with today's youth? Then, when that wasn't working, it was a "gun thing". Too many pistols...then, when they found he was carrying a .38, however shooting everybody with a shotgun...they looked for other ways to mis-direct information. Whatever happend to honest journalism in this country. I live in Washington and the same thing happend to our Moslem shooter who shot up the Jewish volunteers in Seattle. Oh....it was not a hate crime...oh no, that would be politically incorrect. Oh...this was just a misguided teen...had nothing to do with the fact that he was moslem...absorbed all the anti-jewish sentiment in the local mosques and decided to perform jiad justice in America. Wake up people! If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck...and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck. Do you think? Thank god for the bloggers and conservative radio...you will never get the real story from our left-wing media...certainly not from the newspapers with their New York Times agendas.:fire:
 
Could you point out these verses and chapters in the Koran? Your making a lot of wild eyed hateful remarks and I would like some evidence of it. Not just what you think but actual facts that the children are being taught to hate Christians.
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I do not have the time to dig up the quotes myself, but since you seem to ask in good faith let me give you some web sites where you can begin your search:

I've read many many books on Islam and jihad. What I say is the truth. l would recommend Trifkovic's Sword of the Prophet and Spencer's Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam as starting points.
 
Sure you can pull all kinds of "kill the infidel" quotes from the Koran. But you can do the same thing from the Bible and the Torah

Give me one from the Bible or Torah?

There are plenty of radicals on all sides. If you can not tell the difference between the two

Name one main stream Christian or Jewish sect that endorse killing or subjugating non-believers just for the fact that they are non believers.

I would submit that maybe you are a radical......

If you are a not a follower if islam then you are to a large portion of the Islamic world.

I am not saying this was related to islam in anyway, we do not know enough about the facts yet.
 
The news media here in Utah has found a "Social Worker" that's trying to blame this incident on the Post Traumatic Stress of being a Bosnian refugee.
 
.41Dave said:
You appear to have completely missed my point here, which is that your assertion that he was named Sulejman after the Ottoman Sultan is less likely than that he was named after a Prophet of God whose name is found in the Bible and the Qur'an.
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benEzra said:
One could assume with equal logic that anyone named Richard must be a Christian.

Not a valid assumption. Names are primarily cultural, not religious.
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But in both cases... he is still a Muslim. And to argue by analogy, if I met a guy from "Palestine" whose name was "Muhammad Adolf," I'm not thinking he's named after a Swedish king or because the name "sounds nice." The guy is from a place with a lot of Muslims. Not only has a Muslim name, but one that would be offensive to his dhimmi neighbors. Same case with Suleiman.

As I said, it's pretty safe to assume he is a Muslim. Logic doesn't exist in a vacuum, at least not when it comes to people.
 
The local news here in Utah is reporting that he was a Bosian Muslim refugee living with his family and attended a Mosque 3 blocks away from the shooting.

Auntee says he was a nice boy.
 
in fact the only other Muslim spree shooter I can recall is the "DC sniper" case
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The El Al shooter was a Muslim. Also the Seattle Jewish Center shooter was a Muslim. Religious motive can be attributed to both; the first through the intended target, and the second from statements made to the victims.

Seattle Jewish Center Shooting Article

Not a valid assumption. Names are primarily cultural, not religious. Most people name their sons Michael because they like the name, not because they want to name him after an archangel.
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Maybe where you live. But, as Mordechai already pointed out, Orthodox and Catholic Bosnians (ethnic Serbs and Croats) do not name their kids after Muslim sultans. I was born in nearby Belgrade, and I can vouch for that fact.
 
At this point, anyone who argues that there is not a serious long-term global threat from militant Islam is just not paying attention. Five minutes poking around will show that in many parts of the world, it is not preached as the "religion of peace" many say it is.

Further, a few hours researching the resurgence of modern militant Islam (starting with Qutb's Milestones), what's taught in many madrasses, the fundamentals of sharia, and unfortunately even Mohammad's life will see that there is indeed a strain of "my way or death" bloodthirst that goes back to the beginning of the faith.

HOWEVER that does not mean every Muslim -- or even a sizable minority of Muslims -- are anything like the murderous barbarians in Hamas, Hezbollah, the Taliban, etc. Most people just want a nice peaceful life with their family, regardless of their faith.

and well said, PvtPyle. :)
 
I can't help but wonder: How many other off-duty officers or CCW holders were there ,that chose for some reason to NOT go armed? It is possible he could have been stopped in the parking lot, or made the decision himself that this wasn't too smart.
 
Usual Disclaimer
Like lots of news items, there is not enough data to come to a definite conclusion about several issues. We can (and several have done) use common sense, logic, and past experience in lieu of data to draw conclusions*. This is what analysis and investigation is all about. The thing is, we have to be open to changing those conclusions as more data comes in.

Danger in Sweeping it Under the Rug
There is a real danger in sweeping this sort of (probable) militant islamic incident under the rug. Avoiding the harsh reality that a minority/majority** of muslims seek our subjugation and actively work to destroy Western Civ & America results in avoiding the ugly actions we need to take to counter our foes and only eggs on the enemy.

The second danger is partially a function of the first. If it gets bad enough (nuke in LA, NY, Paris, London, wherever; or some similar outrage) the large portion of the USA/Western Civ will wake, suddenly, to the threat. Not having been habituated to seeing the danger, I fear an ugly and unstoppable reaction that will do many & varied nasty things to muslims now living responsibly in our borders.

Don't think it can happen in America or cradle-to-grave-happy socialist Europe? Democracies do that, sometimes, especially when passions run hot. A dictatorship can usually keep such passions from running riot, but we can see in the internment of the Americans of Japanese (& many of Italian & German) ancestry that democracies*** can go azz over teakettle in response. Such reactions go beyond individual action and become gov't policy.

One of hte problems of democracy is the inability to tune responses to something other than somnolent or tumult.



* With his name & origin, concluding he was muslim is a safe bet. Concluding that his actions were spurred by religious motivation (given the LAX El Al shooter, the Seattle Jewish Center shooter, SUV-boy in NC all being confirmed religiously-motivated acts) is also a safe bet. Like I wrote, conclusions drawn need to change (or solidify) to reflect the evidence as it comes in.

** Minority/Majority: It seems a militant minority is actively committing the acts [militants]. A larger minority provide aid ("charity" money, materiel, expertise) to those committing the acts [active supporters]. A majority of muslims in several countries polled support the militants in their efforts (moral supporters).

*** The Armenians were slaughtered AFTER the Ottoman despot fell & the Turks got their first whiff of rule by the people unleashed.
 
I've got to ask:

What is the difference between some lone jihadi loon, some lone anti-social loon, and some lone psychopathic loon?
 
What is the difference between some lone jihadi loon, some lone anti-social loon, and some lone psychopathic loon?
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We can stop allowing more potential jihadi loons from entering our country. We can crack down on those who incite jihadi loons to their murderous acts.

We can't do much with the other loons other than shoot them down as they appear.
 
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