Guns: an investment or money pit?
- Thread starter 6.5x55swedish
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Well, if you ask my WIFE all guns are an INVESTMENT..
Because that's what I have told her over the years....!.
In the LONG RUN..certain guns are an investment. My SP-89, Uzi Carbine, HK-91 and several of my custom COLT .45 Autos are way up in value. Mainsteam guns like GLOCKs I consider break even. Buy one for $500, sell one for $500.
Several political factors could turn an ordinary assault style rifle into an investment; the banning of certain weapons does up the value. (my SP89 cost $999.98 and it's worth 5K today after the ban)
But my advice is to Buy what you want and don't worry about $100 either way. Arguing about a 40% drop in retail price with shop owner is a waste of time. He is in the business and you won't be giving him any money for anything. :banghead:
If you really think something is worth 40% less, then find one on GUNBROKER or any of the other internet sources. I don't think you will however.
Any used rifles he had or took in trade probably sold quick; but not as cheap as you think. Perhaps a 12 to 15% difference if the weapon is clean. Not worth the daily grind shop owners have to pump everyday to keep the doors open.
JMO.
Because that's what I have told her over the years....!. In the LONG RUN..certain guns are an investment. My SP-89, Uzi Carbine, HK-91 and several of my custom COLT .45 Autos are way up in value. Mainsteam guns like GLOCKs I consider break even. Buy one for $500, sell one for $500.
Several political factors could turn an ordinary assault style rifle into an investment; the banning of certain weapons does up the value. (my SP89 cost $999.98 and it's worth 5K today after the ban)
But my advice is to Buy what you want and don't worry about $100 either way. Arguing about a 40% drop in retail price with shop owner is a waste of time. He is in the business and you won't be giving him any money for anything. :banghead:
If you really think something is worth 40% less, then find one on GUNBROKER or any of the other internet sources. I don't think you will however.
Any used rifles he had or took in trade probably sold quick; but not as cheap as you think. Perhaps a 12 to 15% difference if the weapon is clean. Not worth the daily grind shop owners have to pump everyday to keep the doors open.
JMO.
I don't think they are an investment per se but they are much less of a money pit than lots of other things, including cars, electronics, the latest gizmos et cetera.
I consider guns like homes, buy them to enjoy them and not to "flip" them for a profit. If you buy a gun and get years of enjoyment out of it, and then sell it, even at a loss, I consider that awesome. Their value isn't just in what you sell it for, but what you got out of it in the first place.
I consider guns like homes, buy them to enjoy them and not to "flip" them for a profit. If you buy a gun and get years of enjoyment out of it, and then sell it, even at a loss, I consider that awesome. Their value isn't just in what you sell it for, but what you got out of it in the first place.
Russ Jackson
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And always keep in mind you will die before your wife and because you never sell any of them she will sell them to someone for 10 cents on the dollar.
6.5x55swedish
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Yes she will... I own some guns that I bought off of a widow who did just that
Value is what you can get somebody to pay your for something. I have been in situations where I had to dispose of guns because I was in a bind for money... They can sit on GunBroker for a long time at a fair price and not even get a single bid... When it comes to having to sell you end up taking what you can get... I just prefer to be on the buying end in that situation.
Value is what you can get somebody to pay your for something. I have been in situations where I had to dispose of guns because I was in a bind for money... They can sit on GunBroker for a long time at a fair price and not even get a single bid... When it comes to having to sell you end up taking what you can get... I just prefer to be on the buying end in that situation.
5 Screw Smith
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Some of the least knowledgeable people I've spoken to about guns are gun shop employees and FFL dealers at gun shows. Employees with the big retail stores like Bass Pro, Cabellas, and Academy are usually the worst informed. For the most part they are just trying to sell you something. I rarely go into gun shops for that reason and do my shopping at gun shows where I can usually browse without having to engage in small talk, or on line.
I conduct my own research on firearms I'm not completely familiar with before buying and then shop for the best price. I usually do this on line from multiple sources or talk to my knowledgable gun buddies. I also prefer to buy used so if I ever decide to sell or trade the firearm I lose no money from the original purchase.
I conduct my own research on firearms I'm not completely familiar with before buying and then shop for the best price. I usually do this on line from multiple sources or talk to my knowledgable gun buddies. I also prefer to buy used so if I ever decide to sell or trade the firearm I lose no money from the original purchase.
Used/Surplus guns can be an investment, but new guns generally aren't unless legislation changes or they're discontinued and demand goes up.
If you had bought a number of top-quality Swedish Mausers about 10-15 years ago when they were available for $65 apiece, you could have made a good deal of money on them. The problem is that you would have had to stored them somewhere for a decade, and you would have also had to purchase and sell several of them to make it all pay.
An example of new guns appreciating significantly would be the Hungarian SA-85M semi-auto AKs. These were selling for about $250, less in quantity, in the middle 1990s, but you could easily clear $800 for one today due to the increased demand and legal issues. Again, the problem is that they didn't go up overnight, and you would have had to bought/sold more than one or two to really make enough money on the deal to call it an investment in any reasonable sense of the word.
If you had bought a number of top-quality Swedish Mausers about 10-15 years ago when they were available for $65 apiece, you could have made a good deal of money on them. The problem is that you would have had to stored them somewhere for a decade, and you would have also had to purchase and sell several of them to make it all pay.
An example of new guns appreciating significantly would be the Hungarian SA-85M semi-auto AKs. These were selling for about $250, less in quantity, in the middle 1990s, but you could easily clear $800 for one today due to the increased demand and legal issues. Again, the problem is that they didn't go up overnight, and you would have had to bought/sold more than one or two to really make enough money on the deal to call it an investment in any reasonable sense of the word.
Russ Jackson
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You are correct about buying military guns. Look at Mosin's. A year ago you could pick them up for $79 dollars now they are up to $109 or more. But you would have to buy 30 of them to make any money. Or hang on to them for several years.
Seems the owner got angry when he realized that with his inventory of only new guns, and your policy of only buying used guns, that you were occupying his time with zero chance of him making a sale. He probably views dealing with the public in a similar fashion, either an investment with potential return, or a time pit.
I'm not saying if he's right or wrong, just that I don't think he was actually at all concerned with a discussion of the investment potential of firearms and just used it as a way to vent at what he probably felt was time wasted in a brick & mortar store by someone just as likely to find something online and not at all likely to fill his pockets. A lot of vendors don't like window shopping if you intimate that it will never get farther than that.
I do most of both my research and buying online when possible.
I'm not saying if he's right or wrong, just that I don't think he was actually at all concerned with a discussion of the investment potential of firearms and just used it as a way to vent at what he probably felt was time wasted in a brick & mortar store by someone just as likely to find something online and not at all likely to fill his pockets. A lot of vendors don't like window shopping if you intimate that it will never get farther than that.
I do most of both my research and buying online when possible.
SSN Vet
Member
neither.... guns are tools.
some people use their tools a lot and spend the extra money for top quality ones... for this guy the tool is a business asset.
some buy pot metal tools at Harbor Freight, because they use them infrequently, or don't have enough money for the good stuff.
some don't use their tools to earn a paycheck, but appreciate quality and derive pleasure from owning and using the good stuff.... for this guy, the tool is more of an entertainment expense.
some people use their tools a lot and spend the extra money for top quality ones... for this guy the tool is a business asset.
some buy pot metal tools at Harbor Freight, because they use them infrequently, or don't have enough money for the good stuff.
some don't use their tools to earn a paycheck, but appreciate quality and derive pleasure from owning and using the good stuff.... for this guy, the tool is more of an entertainment expense.
BSA1
member
I think this talk about investment value of guns is overplayed. Much of the value of guns is closely tied to the confidence level people have in the Government, world and national events and the economy. I think most would agree that the demand for guns right now is being driven by all three of the above issues. If you are looking to make a buck now is the time to sell.
The problem with gold is the difficulty converting it into something tangible. Try paying for a week’s worth of groceries with a gold coin and ask for your change back. Very few folks don’t have any idea what the current price of gold is or a way to ensure the coin is actually gold and to what percentage.
A firearm is something that more folks recognize the value of and is a lot easier to determine a fair exchange rate for. Names like Smith & Wesson, Colt and Ruger are well known for the quality of their guns.
Buying used is a bit of crap shoot. People sell and trade guns for a reason. Sometimes it is for the need of money or to buy a new toy or sometimes to unload a gun that doesn’t work right. If it is the later how much money have you saved after repairing it?
I agree with the shop owners comment “to just buy what I think feels good and trade it off if I decided I wanted something different.” That is the beauty of our society and for me part of the fun of being a gun buff. If it catches my fancy enough and the price is what I feel is fair I’ll buy it. If it turns out I don’t like it or something else comes along that I want more then I’ll sell or trade it off. Maybe I’ll come out ahead on the deal or maybe not.
The problem with gold is the difficulty converting it into something tangible. Try paying for a week’s worth of groceries with a gold coin and ask for your change back. Very few folks don’t have any idea what the current price of gold is or a way to ensure the coin is actually gold and to what percentage.
A firearm is something that more folks recognize the value of and is a lot easier to determine a fair exchange rate for. Names like Smith & Wesson, Colt and Ruger are well known for the quality of their guns.
Buying used is a bit of crap shoot. People sell and trade guns for a reason. Sometimes it is for the need of money or to buy a new toy or sometimes to unload a gun that doesn’t work right. If it is the later how much money have you saved after repairing it?
I agree with the shop owners comment “to just buy what I think feels good and trade it off if I decided I wanted something different.” That is the beauty of our society and for me part of the fun of being a gun buff. If it catches my fancy enough and the price is what I feel is fair I’ll buy it. If it turns out I don’t like it or something else comes along that I want more then I’ll sell or trade it off. Maybe I’ll come out ahead on the deal or maybe not.
1 old 0311-1
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Don't think I will loose much here. KNOW your product. KNOW your price. ONLY buy when it is to your advantage.
1 old 0311-1
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Money Pit.
And when I die, I am going to have them thrown in the pit with me and concrete added to fill the voids.
Mine, mine, mine.
You are not far off. my uncle had a S&W model 36 he carried for decades till he died. It then went to my aunt. Before she dies she gave it to ma and asked me to put in her casket with her when she died.
At the funeral, in the church, the casket was open and waiting for the right moment I went up and put it in beside her.
She got her wish.
And when I die, I am going to have them thrown in the pit with me and concrete added to fill the voids.
Mine, mine, mine.
You are not far off. my uncle had a S&W model 36 he carried for decades till he died. It then went to my aunt. Before she dies she gave it to ma and asked me to put in her casket with her when she died.
At the funeral, in the church, the casket was open and waiting for the right moment I went up and put it in beside her.
She got her wish.
silicosys4
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I've found that my best odds of finding firearms at investment level prices, or of negotiating prices down to investment level, are at pawn shops.
A typical pawn shop will only pay 1/3 of what they feel they can sell the gun for. So already they have minimal overhead into a gun, and can be talked waaaay down if you are waving cash around.
Many pawn shops are not specialized enough in firearms to research all models enough, particularly the obscure models, to make consistently appropriate valuations.
Because of the nature of pawnshops, they tend to want to turn inventory around quickly, to get back money that they have loaned out and subsequently lost if the owner does not pick up their item.
People who sell guns to pawnshops tend not to know the value or rarity of the gun they are selling, otherwise they would be somewhere else, or advertising in the paper.
I think back on my best deals, and they have all been in pawnshops.
Case in point, I bought a Walther PPK, an original WW2 PPK that after research I nailed down to a fourth version RSHA gun that was issued to a member of the SS. The pawn shop had it listed for about 20% of its actual value, because they looked it up under generic wartime PPK info in the blue book of gun values.
A few other guns I've bought in pawn shops, I'll try and remember what I paid vs what they were listed for
Springfield M6 scout survival gun, listed for $150 + tax, paid $125 out the door, I sold it for $150 like a complete dumbass...neither the pawnshop or me knew what we had. worth $700 or so last I looked.
RIA .45 GI model, 99% with 1 mag listed at $350+tax, paid $300 out the door, got $350 in trade value
Taurus PT99 98% with 2 mags, listed $375 plus tax, paid $300 out the door
Ruger MK1 bull barrel, 90% with 1 mag, listed at $175, paid $150 out the door
H&K USP .45, 98%, listed for $500 + tax, paid $400 out the door
Rem. m700 .270 ADL LNIB no scope, $275 OTD
Win. M70 stainless classic .300winmag, with leopold 2-10 VXII both 99% $600 out the door
Sometimes I get lucky at the local gun shop, but not as often as the pawn shop and usually only if its a consignment gun that the LGS doesn't set price on. Like my diamondback .38 2.5" for $400.
They can be an investment, but for the time and capitol you have to invest, you either have to buy looots of cheap guns and hope they outpace inflation,
or invest in large dollar firearms that get even more large dollar, again...outpacing inflation....and the storage costs.
Otherwise after your time and energy, you won't be making diddly squat on each gun, and your money would work much harder elsewhere.
A typical pawn shop will only pay 1/3 of what they feel they can sell the gun for. So already they have minimal overhead into a gun, and can be talked waaaay down if you are waving cash around.
Many pawn shops are not specialized enough in firearms to research all models enough, particularly the obscure models, to make consistently appropriate valuations.
Because of the nature of pawnshops, they tend to want to turn inventory around quickly, to get back money that they have loaned out and subsequently lost if the owner does not pick up their item.
People who sell guns to pawnshops tend not to know the value or rarity of the gun they are selling, otherwise they would be somewhere else, or advertising in the paper.
I think back on my best deals, and they have all been in pawnshops.
Case in point, I bought a Walther PPK, an original WW2 PPK that after research I nailed down to a fourth version RSHA gun that was issued to a member of the SS. The pawn shop had it listed for about 20% of its actual value, because they looked it up under generic wartime PPK info in the blue book of gun values.
A few other guns I've bought in pawn shops, I'll try and remember what I paid vs what they were listed for
Springfield M6 scout survival gun, listed for $150 + tax, paid $125 out the door, I sold it for $150 like a complete dumbass...neither the pawnshop or me knew what we had. worth $700 or so last I looked.
RIA .45 GI model, 99% with 1 mag listed at $350+tax, paid $300 out the door, got $350 in trade value
Taurus PT99 98% with 2 mags, listed $375 plus tax, paid $300 out the door
Ruger MK1 bull barrel, 90% with 1 mag, listed at $175, paid $150 out the door
H&K USP .45, 98%, listed for $500 + tax, paid $400 out the door
Rem. m700 .270 ADL LNIB no scope, $275 OTD
Win. M70 stainless classic .300winmag, with leopold 2-10 VXII both 99% $600 out the door
Sometimes I get lucky at the local gun shop, but not as often as the pawn shop and usually only if its a consignment gun that the LGS doesn't set price on. Like my diamondback .38 2.5" for $400.
They can be an investment, but for the time and capitol you have to invest, you either have to buy looots of cheap guns and hope they outpace inflation,
or invest in large dollar firearms that get even more large dollar, again...outpacing inflation....and the storage costs.
Otherwise after your time and energy, you won't be making diddly squat on each gun, and your money would work much harder elsewhere.
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Russ Jackson
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Don't think I will loose much here. KNOW your product. KNOW your price. ONLY buy when it is to your advantage.
The nicest collection of Taurus and RG's I have ever seen.
Inebriated
Member
Pit for me, though I guess "investment" can mean anything of value. To some maybe it's an investment in safety, or entertainment. To others, it's purely monetary.
Ehh... it's still just a pit.
Ehh... it's still just a pit.
nazshooter
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So what IS the proper change if you pay for your groceries with a Glock, 2 High Points and a box of ammo?
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nazshooter
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That was my first reaction too. I'm pretty sure most of the gun shops around here must really be owned by women because the only way to get them to treat you right at first is to get them a gift (buy a box of ammo or something). Once you get to know them though they'll talk your ear off
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barnbwt
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Not if you keep a list of serial numbers and models (and estimated cost) in the will. For folks that have literally thousands tied up in firearms, it really makes good sense to keep a tally on it. You wouldn't leave a full savings account or stock portfolio out of a will, would you? (if you're on good terms with the missus, that is
)Precisely. 90% of firearms "investments" I hear of are pure speculation at best, hair-brained attempts at justifying gun purchases to the wife at worst. Selling at the price you bought them for after years have passed is not a successful investment. Selling at double price after a decade is not a successful investment. Buying a gun already bid up in price by collectors (*cough* --Python-- *cough*) is probably not a good investment. Thoroughly enjoying the use of a firearm before parting with it is not an investment, but rather a wise use of your money.
Ammo may be considered an investment, at least from a commodity standpoint. But unless you lucked out and bought a ton of 7.62x25, 8x56R or something weird (but previously cheap) like that, you probably haven't gotten a particularly awesome rate of return over the years relative to inflation.
The only sure "investments" I've seen in firearms are deals. That is, seeing a gun priced so far below what it should logically go for that you are guaranteed a return. I bought my FN49 when I hadn't saved up as much as I'd wanted for this reason; it was half the price it should have gone for, so there was little risk in my decision. To make money this way, you'd need to comb through ads, bids, and forums every moment of your waking life going forward (much like stock traders). If you do that anyway (I'm sure some of us do
) then serious gun investing becomes a possibility (but you'd already know that by now)If the economy turns south-er again, we may see prices declining in the future for a bit; something to look out for if you're banking on guns gaining value. With all the ramped up manufacturer production and winding down of military sales projected, there's already tremendous downward pressure on gun prices (even with our currency inflating). The instant enough people think (wrongly
) that they have enough guns or that they aren't in danger of being banned, we'll see a bit of a "gun bubble" deflate as S&W, Ruger, et al are forced to return production to non-firesale levels.TCB
If the only value you consider is the buy - sell difference than certainly you have a point.
If you compare those numbers on various consumer products then most firearms come out very well over a period of time. For example what if your dad had spent that $60 on a couch ? What do you think that would be worth today ?
I don't look at a gun as an investment - I look at it as a tool that serves a functional purpose . The fact that yuou can serve that purpose for years and still recover your original purchase money and sometimes more, may not be the mother of all investments, but it darn shure isn't a bad deal either.
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