Guns Are Not a Magic Talisman

[andrechuk]

If you want a magic talisman, purchase a magic talisman. If you want a firearm, purchase a firearm. It is important to differentiate the talisman from the firearm. Even ebay has done so.

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-Kwai-Tanoo-...ryZ20085QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Actually, I'm surprised ebay allows such an item, which, per the descrirption, is used "to harm sombody that you don't like and you want him [to] die!!!!"

 

[mbt2001]

The German troops outnumbered and out Gunned Sgt. York in every possible way...

The below is from Wikipedia, the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

On 8 October, 1918, York's batallion was involved in an attack that would earn him a Medal of Honor. The mission was to take the German Decauville rail-line, thus cutting off lateral support behind the German lines and force the Germans out of the Argonne Forest. This forest was in the German hands for four years and was heavily fortified. The attack took the 328th into a funnel shaped valley, which became narrower as they advanced. On all three sides of the valley were steep ridges, occupied by German machine gun emplacements and infantry troops. As the Americans advanced, they encountered intense German machine gun fires from the left and right flanks and the front. Soon, German artillery poured in upon them, forcing the American attack to stall. The Americans were caught in a deadly cross-fire. York recalled:

The Germans got us, and they got us right smart. They just stopped us dead in our tracks. Their machine guns were up there on the heights overlooking us and well hidden, and we couldn’t tell for certain where the terrible heavy fire was coming from…And I'm telling you they were shooting straight. Our boys just went down like the long grass before the mowing machine at home. Our attack just faded out… And there we were, lying down, about halfway across [the valley] and those German machine guns and big shells getting us hard.[1]



The German fire took a heavy toll on the regiment. Seventeen men under the command of Sergeant Bernard Early (which included York) infiltrated behind the German lines to take out the machine guns. The group worked their way behind the Germans and overran the headquarters of a German unit, capturing a large group of German soldiers who were preparing to counter-attack against the US troops. Early’s men were contending with the prisoners when machine gun fire suddenly peppered the area, killing six Americans, Corp. Murray Savage, and Pvts. Maryan E. Dymowski, Ralph E. Weiler, Fred Waring, William Wins and Walter E. Swanson, and wounding three others, Sgt. Brenard Early, Corp. William S. Cutting (AKA Otis B. Merrithew) and Pvt. Mario Muzzi. The fire came from German machine guns on the ridge, which turned their weapons on the US soldiers. The loss of the nine put Corporal York in charge of the seven remaining US soldiers, Pvts. Joseph Konotski (Kornacki), Percy Beardsley, Feodor Sok, Thomas C. Johnson, Michael A. Saccina, Patrick Donohue and George W. Wills. As his men remained under cover, and guarding the prisoners, York worked his way into position to silence the German machine guns. York recalled: And those machine guns were spitting fire and cutting down the undergrowth all around me something awful. And the Germans were yelling orders. You never heard such a racket in all of your life. I didn't have time to dodge behind a tree or dive into the brush... As soon as the machine guns opened fire on me, I began to exchange shots with them. There were over thirty of them in continuous action, and all I could do was touch the Germans off just as fast as I could. I was sharp shooting... All the time I kept yelling at them to come down. I didn't want to kill any more than I had to. But it was they or I. And I was giving them the best I had.

One of York’s prisoners, German First Lieutenant Vollmer, emptied his pistol trying to kill York while he was contending with the machine guns. Failing to injure York, and seeing his mounting loses, he offered to surrender the unit to York, which was gladly accepted. By the end of the engagement, York and his seven men marched 132 German prisoners back to the American lines. His actions silenced the German machine guns and were responsible for enabling the 328th Infantry Regiment to renew the offensive to capture the Decauville Railroad.[3]

York was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his heroism, but this was upgraded to the Medal of Honor, which was presented to York by the commanding general of the American Expeditionary Force, General John J. Pershing. The French Republic, awarded him the Croix de Guerre and Legion of Honor. Italy and Montenegro, awarded him; Croce di Guerra and War Medal, respectively.

York was a Corporal during the action. His promotion to sergeant was part of the honor for his valor. Of his deeds York said to his division commander, General Duncan, in 1919: "A higher power than man power guided and watched over me and told me what to do."

 

[ilbob]

What in the first example would have let Hickok live to see 3 August 1876?

avoiding bars and gambling establishments.

 

[Biker]

No, I think it would be to sit with your back to the wall where you could keep the door in view.

Can't avoid life.

Biker

 

[sm]

I'm not one 100% in agreement with backs to walls and sitting in corners.

It depends on enviornment, and if alone, or with others, and who these others are.

Too many years ago , I worked in a Mall from time to time.
Another business was armed robbed.
Plainclothes cop, with a gun, standing in the corner watching the store, and all and two guys run in and the first person they had both guns on , was that Cop.

They had cased the joint no doubt.

Jeff White and his family and I sat just off from the entry at a Cracker Barrel.
Jeff was facing the wall, I sat next to him.
Jeff, myself and his family, able to watch 360* for all of us.

Springmom and I sat next to adjacent, not opposite each other, in a Ruby Tuesday, at the table just near the front door.
Again, we were able to watch, I used glass from not only exterior walls - also salad bar.

Preacherman and I. We have always sat in a booth, he faces the Entry, I watch the back area with bar and all.
Last time, my gut was speaking to me, Preacheman picked up this as we left and in parking lot.
Both in my truck as I picked him up.
Don't recall if checked my wrist for time ( I don't always wear a watch, and have been known to check my wrist, though I am not wearing a watch) or I turned to light a cigarette, pretending to turn from wind.
I use a Zippo, what do I care about wind? I don't.
He is scanning and I am scanning behind.
In truck and leave...and still watching as I saw someone I really don't want to meet with.

Lee Lapin and his wife...same kind of "Not a magic talisman", just we happen to have guns , nothing happened, as we did other things to stay safe.

 

[Glock Glockler]

As far as Hickok goes, did he have any idea that McCall had it in for him?

If so, being pro-active and making peace with him or insuring that McCall's ability to do harm on him was eliminated would have been the prudent course of action.

As Machiavelli wrote "men must be pampered or crushed" and "never do an enemy a minor injury".

 

[JMusic]

I think Biker has a point. I too try to sit where it is to my advantage to cover as much as possible. I think that is what Biker meant. When I am with another person with the same skill set we set up differently and read off or each other. Point being seldom do I position myself oblivious to the surroundings. My wife who sits first even has the knack of where to sit.

Jim

 

[JMusic]

Unit eight to headquarters. Unit eight. Signal 21 Walmart subjects not in sight ghead. Unit eight Manager just called and said all three have reentered the building.

A call had come in from the local Walmart. Three individuals had been loitering around the ammo shelves and were leaving and coming back and generally acting abnormal. A plainclothes car was in the area and had been dispatched to the scene.

Headquarters unit eight! Eight ghead. Subjects became beligerent with the store manager and are on their way out. Eight copy, have them in sight send in a marked car. Eight closest one is 5 minutes away A24 ghead. A24? Eight go a head. Subjects removed something from the trunk of their car and are heading across the road into a corn field. Copy eight eta 3 minutes. Eight headquarter I am in foot pursuit due south from the parking lot. Eight wait for backup. Headquarters unit eight? Headquarters unit eight manager reports some 12 guage slugs were taken from the store copy? A24 unit eight your location? A24 headquarters request code 10.( Code 10 was officer needs assistance) All units in the area would immediatly go hot to that location. Headquarters unit 8. Headquaters to unit eight your location? Unit eight was not going to answer he was not going to answer ever again.

The time this happened was at dusk, as time went on it was soon dark. Our first cruiser to the scene A24 knew from the last transmission that the three suspects had crossed the road and ran down the edge of a yard adjacent to a cornfield. By this cornfield was a hedge row. Unit eight had followed the three across the yard heading into the cornfield. What he didn't know was what was removed from the trunk was a sawed off 12 guage shotgun. Nor did he know that they had stoled a box of shotgun slugs on their last trip out.

He also didn't see the last suspect slip behind the hedgerow. As unit 8 ran by the suspect blew him out into the corn field about 8 ft. He died quickly, you could see his heel marks in the ground as he went through his death throughs. The suspects were captured by simply surounding the field and sending in the dogs. It was a simple mistake but fatal. He was a good friend of mine, had actually taked my place as the tactical commander when I moved on. He had left a wife and two young kids.

Jim

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The gun, any gun, is just better odds. It's a tool which enables you to deal with more problems than you could otherwise. There are of course problems and circumstances which arrive which no one could deal with.

A gun is only better odds if you get a chance to deploy and use it against the threat. Otherwise, it is just excess baggage and a poor shield.

Jeff's original point is that Hickok was never in a position to deploy his gun. He was a good shooter and was armed, but his gun did zilch for him when he was ambushed from behind.

A gun is a tool, and if not used in conjunction with other tools such as situational awareness and proper application, then it isn't much good.

 

[JMusic]

Absolutely! I don't go to the mailbox without a pocket pistol, but a firearm has NEVER saved my life. Here is what has:

We are taking a trip over the fourth of July. Going on this trip are my brother in law and his wife, my wife and I. We are both driving new Corvettes. We are heading to Myrtle beach. when we get there (after dark) there is a problem with our reservations and our rooms are gone. We start to head north and arrive in Wilmington NC. We get off on an exit and end up in the flats. My brother- in - law pulls over to the side of the road and opens a map. I pull in front of him just back from an intersection. Right across the street is a bar with about 30 gang members standing outside. I look at my wife and say, "This is bad" about that time three come across the street one with his hand in a paper sack. I immediately crank the wheel of the vet to theright and place the car in reverse. I then start to search with my right hand for my Mag Light. Our only means of protection.

The guy with the sack walks up to the window and I roll it down. We both have smiles on our face and I still have my hand behind the seat. "Lost are we?" The guy with the sack says. "No not really just looking for a place to stay" I say with a smile. "What do you have behind the seat a gun?" "Damn straight! Whats in the sack?" WE banter back and forth a few minutes he walks back to the other two and they go back across the street. I immediately get out and go back to my oblivious brother in law and tap on the window. That was about the stupidest *&^* move I have ever seen good by. We then left. The brother in Law never knew what was going on up ahead. If I hadn't been searching for my flash light or picked up on the fact the guy thought we had a weapon god knows what would have happened. Its you brain that will save your bacon at the end of the day.

Jim

 

[BigO01]

Are you sure you're Progun/2A White ?

Yours looks more like an Anti Trolls post to me .

No one who is serious would be fool enough to think the mere possion of a gun is going to keep 1 safe in all circumstances .

As has been pointed out and is common knowledge armed soldiers Die everyday in a war , cops die on the streets , we all know this .

Fact of the matter is displaying a firearm quite often does stop the actions of criminals , I know as I have done it twice in my life and there are stats kept even by the FBI .

What you described was a case of cowardly cold blooded murder in Hickocks death . It happens all the time and has been happening long before firearms were invented and will untill man no longer exists .

The above can't be disputed but neither can it be disputed that if the intended victim realizes what is coming they often have the opportunity to prevent their own murder especially if they are armed with a firearm .

This is the silliest thread I have ever seen started by a MOD especially one as heavy handed as you are to close threads you deem pointless .

 

[wheelgunslinger]

In 69, Meredith Hunter managed to pull his gun to try try and shoot some Hell's Angels at the Altamont Free Music Festival and was stabbed and kicked to death before he could shoot anyone.

Alan Passaro, the famous Hell's Angel member who took him on, was unarmed except for his knife, which he used to great effect against Hunter.

Hunter wasn't just armed, he had a weapon drawn and was in process of trying to employ it when Passaro ended him.

 

[Jeff White]

Big001 said;

No one who is serious would be fool enough to think the mere possion of a gun is going to keep 1 safe in all circumstances .

All you have to do is read through the posts on THR and you'll find many examples of people thinking that mere possession of a gun is all you must do to remain safe.

Fact of the matter is displaying a firearm quite often does stop the actions of criminals , I know as I have done it twice in my life and there are stats kept even by the FBI .

I'm glad you were fortunate enough to get out of trouble twice by displaying a gun. But let me tell you from first hand experience, there are a lot of criminals and EDPs out there who aren't impressed with guns or badges. No one keeps statistics as to how many crimes were thwarted by the display of a weapon. Not the FBI, not DOJ, no one. It is impossible to keep those statistics because allegedly most of those incidents are never reported to anyone. Who did you report your two incidents to?

The above can't be disputed but neither can it be disputed that if the intended victim realizes what is coming they often have the opportunity to prevent their own murder especially if they are armed with a firearm .

That's the point, you have to see it coming. If you don't. the firearm is worthless to you and you've most likely just armed a criminal. Once you see it coming, you have to be calm enough to recognize the threat, form a plan of action and react....All things that will go a lot farther towards saving your life then having a firearm in your possession. That's what this thread is about.

Jeff

 

[Byron Quick]

This is the silliest thread I have ever seen started by a MOD especially one as heavy handed as you are to close threads you deem pointless .

No, it's not. My uncle lost his life to an irate customer. He was armed. Never drew his weapon, never had the chance to do so as being shot in the back was his first indication that things had gone beyond verbal argument.

I am going to relate the deaths of two friends of mine. I will be making suppositions and, therefore, I will not state their names or where this happened.

The couple owned a couple of businesses. One was selling firearms including NFA firearms-selective fire weapons and suppressors. They were good people but, like many, they had faults. This couple had a very bad one. They were racists. Not only racists but overt, loud racists who would bluntly use racial slurs directly to people of other races.

I don't know if this had anything to do with their deaths or not. They were killed by two young black men in their firearms dealership. I believe they would have been robbed and likely killed in any event but have wondered if a racial slur might have been the spark that turned a robbery into a bloodbath.

The couple was armed all the time. They had loaded weapons placed in hidden locations throughout their businesses and home. They never fired a shot that day. The husband was unresponsive in the trauma center. His wife was not but was understandably quite hysterical and was not able to give any hard information before she lost consciousness from what I gathered from coworkers who were present. I am grateful I was not on duty when my friends were brought into the trauma center.

I don't insult people unnecessarily. Ever. Courtesy is one of the tools in my self defense tool box.

You can see and hear the 'magic talisman' mindset often on this board and wherever gun culture members congregate. Ever heard someone discussing the 'intimidation factor' of a shotgun being racked? They apparently believe that that sound will automatically result in the people hearing that running away. And rational criminals will. Only one problem: there are lots of non-rational people out there. I've known two people crazy enough that a regimental combat team wouldn't have intimidated them. Now granted, one of the two took a knife to a shotgun fight and is dead as a result. The other is still walking around though and is about the last man on earth I'd want to make angry for no good reason.

He might be the guy someone decides to make obscene gestures to. If so, I hope they've got their affairs in order and have made adequate arrangements for their family's future.

I don't live as a hermit in order to avoid dangerous places and areas. On the other hand, I don't hang out in known trouble areas either.

I've had people back down for they realized I was armed and that that arm was about to be used. But I've never counted on them doing so. I've also run like a rabbit while armed. Being armed is much better than not being armed. Being in a high state of awareness is good. Training is good.

One of the best fighters on this planet was once asked if he considered himself to be invincible. He answer was that he was not for anyone can have a bad day.

I, too, prefer the tactic of not being there. I carry for I know that this is not an absolutely reliable tactic.

Good fortune, people. Always. Carry responsibly. Train. Practice. Endeavor to put the odds in your favor. Stack the deck if you can.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

I don't insult people unnecessarily. Ever. Courtesy is one of the tools in my self defense tool box.

This is great advice.

The only civilian confrontation I ever got in was with a driver in NYC. He jumped out with a tire iron, me with a righteous attitude. Guess who would have won that one Let things that don't matter just roll off your back. Besides, we all tend to remember other people's transgressions, traffic or otherwise, but overlook our own.

 

[JMusic]

This thread is not silly. It is one of the few threads I have read in quit some time that brings to the front what really counts in deadly encounters,"your mindset and your wits". The experiences I wrote above happened to good friends of mine. Both highly trained and both well armed. Each made a mistake, a very small mistake. Note that one was killed by an unarmed assailant. I have for a long time stated we talk 99% of the time about something that in all practicality will never be used. I have been through countless deadly encounters and if you paid attention you will note not once did a firearm make a difference. If you think pulling a firearm on someone will always stop an attack you are living in a fairy tail. I was a plain clothes Sheriffs Deputy. When I first started I asked an old timer why did the star have rounded ends. His answer "So you can pull it out of your ass easier". When you pull a firearm, you better be ready to use it. Its not for display.

Jim

 

[mavracer]

drew an old .45 Colt and walked up behind Hickok.

what was it like all of three years old.sorry in all seriousness yes its the software not the hardware.being aware of pending trouble and avoidence are your best bet.although in Hickocks case I'm thinking it was not just a let down in awareness,But much could be the fading skills of a 51 year old who lived a hard life.At the time glaucoma had taken most of his sight and the pain involved had him in a self medicated constant state of euforia.which made him an easier mark than he would have been 10 years earlier.

 

[jahwarrior]

i read somewhere that nearly half of american casualties in WWII were killed without ever firing their guns. this was due to not being mentally prepared to kill. training was revamped, and during vietnam, the number dropped to less than 13%.

 

[sacp81170a]

A great example is the difference between shinai kendo and shinken shobu, or practice with live blades. Practicing kendo kata with wooden swords is fairly easy. The first time I practiced with my sensei using live blades there was a huge mental block to overcome. I knew that we weren't actually trying to kill each other, but all of a sudden moves that had been easy and fluid became stilted and mechanical because of the fear. The only way over the hump is to train, train, train. Force on force training is extremely valuable, especially if the scenarios aren't known by the trainees ahead of time.

Great thread. If we fall into the trap of regarding firearms as talismans, we are engaging in the same semi-mystical thinking that the anti-gunners do.

Every time there is a new entry on the Officer Down web page, our chief prints it out and circulates it to the department. There's plenty of examples on that site of how many ways there are to be killed in the line of duty. Sobering.

 

[ilbob]

i read somewhere that nearly half of american casualties in WWII were killed without ever firing their guns. this was due to not being mentally prepared to kill. training was revamped, and during vietnam, the number dropped to less than 13%.

not causalities, just soldiers in general. they would just freeze and either not pull the trigger, forget to load, forget to reload, forget to take the safety off, etc.

there is a big difference between a one on one encounter with a piece of paper and someone shooting back at you.

 

[Rumble]

The presence of an armed security guard at that Cleveland school didn't ward off the shooter any more than a line of salt or a crystal necklace. It's not quite the same analogy, but nonetheless - there's nothing magic about a security presence. If the guard never finds out its happening until it's too late, then there's nothing he or she can do, no matter how many guns he or she has strapped to 'em.

 

[ilbob]

I am almost surprised that no one has argued that a gun is a magic talisman.

 

[walking arsenal]

George S. Patton had at least one shotgun and probably a handgun with him when he suffered the injury that killed him in an automobile accident. It's unlikely that more guns or no guns would have kept him alive. Guns didn't matter at all. What mattered was that his driver made a mistake.

No, what mattered is that he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Dunno if what he was riding in had them or not though.

 

[foghornl]

A firearm is NOT a "Magic Talisman". It will USUALLY give you better odds on walking away instead of being carried away, but not always.

If your want a Magic Talisman, visit your local "Occult" store.

 

[mavracer]

I am almost surprised that no one has argued that a gun is a magic talisman.

as close as I'll get, Had a agressor suddenly turn passive puppy when I drew my gun,but I still carry a loaded gun just in case my lightning draw is not enough. I also think my "loud" Boxer and the racking slide of my 1911 might cause the BG to leave.But again it has a loaded mag in it just in case intimadation is not enough.