give
Member
i believe carrying in church is a good idea,there seems to be a rise in crazy attacks all over the country,and the comment about god will protect you,i agree with the thread about god helps those that help themselves,carry away i do
guns in church
- Thread starter docmagnum357
- Start date
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Personally I don't attend church as I'm an atheist, but if I was a member of a congregation I'd feel safer knowing that there were good people around me with the means to protect us all.
In fact, having been to CCD as a child, I can think of nothing in the bible which would even suggest that one should allow themselves and their family and congregation be assaulted if they can do something about it.
Even though I'm an atheist I fervently support the principals and morals put forth by the bible and I'm glad that you're doing something to instill them in future generations.
In fact, having been to CCD as a child, I can think of nothing in the bible which would even suggest that one should allow themselves and their family and congregation be assaulted if they can do something about it.
Even though I'm an atheist I fervently support the principals and morals put forth by the bible and I'm glad that you're doing something to instill them in future generations.
Treo
member
Ya'll do know that the words "God helps them that help themselves" are no where in the Bible right?
no matter what your religion there will be those that disagree with it even strongly disagree. there will also be those that blame your religion for thier own personal problems or the weather or the economy. since these people probably arent very well balenced to begin with i think its a good idea to carry in church. not many people would expect it and we have had some media hyped shootings at churches lately.
I carry in church and as far as I know, I am the only one - except my wife who carries sometimes. There are others with their CCW but I don't think that they carry.
The likelihood that I will need my weapon in church is remote but not impossible. Assuming that I have decided that using my weapon is the most appropriate response to a threat, I have decided that I will draw my weapon and will proceed in a direction that will bring me closer to the threat and will remove others from the line of fire. Hopefully, the threat will be neutralized but if not, I am willing to lay down my life so that others might live.
Church is one of the only places that I would run to the threat instead of away from it.
The likelihood that I will need my weapon in church is remote but not impossible. Assuming that I have decided that using my weapon is the most appropriate response to a threat, I have decided that I will draw my weapon and will proceed in a direction that will bring me closer to the threat and will remove others from the line of fire. Hopefully, the threat will be neutralized but if not, I am willing to lay down my life so that others might live.
Church is one of the only places that I would run to the threat instead of away from it.
Ben_Tucci
Member
I attend a small (150ish) independent baptist church and my pastor knows members of his church have weapons permits and respects it. He doesn't ask but it is common knowledge in the church that certain members have permits to carry and do so including my father who is an elder. You don't have to make it an obvious issue but if the subject comes up it gives you an opportunity to educate.
lookn4varmints
Member
Does a recent spate of church shootings qualify as a good and sufficient reason? I would bet that a rural VA jury would believe so.
FYI, CCW in a church WITHOUT good & sufficient reason during scheduled services in VA is a Class 4 misdemeanor (no jail and a max fine of $250).
SSN Vet
Member
similar circumstances here....I started carrying in church a year and a half ago. Every Sunday. I may forget my Bible (well we have them in the pew), but not my piece.
The way I see it, there's a lot of hatred and anemosity towards Christians....just look how many churches have been burned or shot up in the last three years....it's upwards of thirty. Compare that to attacks on synogogs an mosques., which are at about two each. The more faithfully Christians represent God's standards to the world and speak out against evil....the more hatred they will generate. John Ch 15 bares witness to this. So every Sunday I go and identify myself publically with a hated group of people, which puts my person and my family at greater risk than any other time of the week when we annonomously blend in. You better believe I carry in church.
Our church started out on the security path in earnest about a year ago, when some pedophile type tried to grab a kid from the church down the road during the period in between the service and Sunday school hour. Their pastor wrote a letter to every church in the region detailing the event and asking others to keep an eye on the little ones.
So we have a pseudo security team and several disjointed efforts under way.
We have an usher at each entrance on Sunday morning now. And on each one but the main entrance, the doors remain locked and the usher opens the door, greets the people and hands them a bulletin. Most people don't even realize that the door is locked. So if the usher sees some one coming with a gun, they simply don't open the door.
Each usher and each Sunday school classroom and the nursury have a walkie talkie type handset. One guy is a floater and is responsible to run down to help out if he is paged. The worst "incident" we've had was a grandfather who didn't attend and was unknown to the nursury workers, came to pick up jr. So they paged the usher and he came down and explained what the policy was and that it was to protect the kids. After a brief conversation, it was obvious that grandpa was legit. and he took Jr. home. He seemed confused by the whole affair, but understood that it was well meant.
We are very concerned about getting stuck in the middle of a custody dispute, where a non-custodial parent might try to snatch their kid while the estranged spouse is upstairs in the service. Our policy is that only the person who drops the child off can pick them up. But were not exactly dealing with trained/paid professionals here. Like many churches, we're doing well just to get enough volunteers to run the many programs going on.
Fortunately, the chief of police from the town up the road is a member and our elders have tapped his expertise to come up with some good plans and ideas. We just recently went with keyless entry swipe cards, as it seemed that after twenty years, every body and their brother had a key to the building.
One big concern is that on week days the secretary and the custodian are the only ones in the building....which is fairly large. The concern is that someone might target the secretary. Fortuantely, as the church has more and more going on, there are fewer times when the building isn't more occupied.
Had some knuckle head who tagged along to youth group break in with his buddy and steal the youth pastors bow (we have an archery set up in the gym). They even started to paint a swastika on the youth center wall. As is often the case, the kind of kids who do this type of stuff aren't to bright and they were caught trying to sell the bow two days later. And though the church didn't really want to make a big deal out of prosecuting Beavus and Co., the state automatically refers all of these type of incidents for review for possible prosecution as a hate crime.
So that's some thoughts on our disjointed efforts. I'd say on any given Sunday there are at least four or five men packing in the congregation. It is all low key and is rarely discussed from the "pulpet" though, as there are certainly some members who have pacifist leanings, or even a few anti's. Our leadership doesn't want to make the "gun thing" an issue that might turn people off from the primary message and mission of the church.
Now a funny anecdote. Our senior pastor is an avid hunter and fisherman and has his carry permit. When another brother learned that I had obtained my permit, he mentioned it to pastor. The following Sunday, I was turned around leaning over the back of my chair to talk to someone and my sweater slipped up over my holster. At the same time, a lady who was looking my way had an odd expression on her face. I thought for sure I had been made. Well a day or two later I was talking to pastor and he say's "hey I heard you brought a gun to church. My wife was at a meeting and said that all the lady's were talking about it". My heart sank...but it turns out that he was just pulling my leg, having heard that I now had my permit.
Christmas Eve. we had a children's program and afterward when I greeted our senior pastor, who is very much a mentor and father figure to me, I gave him a big bear hug, and inadvertantly flipped his sport jacket up over the full frame .45 he was carrying OWB. Fortunately he was standing in a doorway and was able to discreatly fix his "wardrobe casualty". Hey, you know what they say about paybacks. I told my wife later in the day and we both agreed that it made us feel loved, to know that our shepherd was prepared to put his life on the line for the little sheep.
That's life at this end. I need to step up to the plate and get more involved, as our "security team", which is primarily a collateral duty for the ushers, is kind of a cluster.
My thoughts exaclty.
As for the Christian ethics of personal defense, there is some very good logic and reasoning to be found in the section of the Westminster Confession of Faith were a Christian's moral OBLIGATION to resist evil is addressed.
The way I see it, there's a lot of hatred and anemosity towards Christians....just look how many churches have been burned or shot up in the last three years....it's upwards of thirty. Compare that to attacks on synogogs an mosques., which are at about two each. The more faithfully Christians represent God's standards to the world and speak out against evil....the more hatred they will generate. John Ch 15 bares witness to this. So every Sunday I go and identify myself publically with a hated group of people, which puts my person and my family at greater risk than any other time of the week when we annonomously blend in. You better believe I carry in church.
Our church started out on the security path in earnest about a year ago, when some pedophile type tried to grab a kid from the church down the road during the period in between the service and Sunday school hour. Their pastor wrote a letter to every church in the region detailing the event and asking others to keep an eye on the little ones.
So we have a pseudo security team and several disjointed efforts under way.
We have an usher at each entrance on Sunday morning now. And on each one but the main entrance, the doors remain locked and the usher opens the door, greets the people and hands them a bulletin. Most people don't even realize that the door is locked. So if the usher sees some one coming with a gun, they simply don't open the door.
Each usher and each Sunday school classroom and the nursury have a walkie talkie type handset. One guy is a floater and is responsible to run down to help out if he is paged. The worst "incident" we've had was a grandfather who didn't attend and was unknown to the nursury workers, came to pick up jr. So they paged the usher and he came down and explained what the policy was and that it was to protect the kids. After a brief conversation, it was obvious that grandpa was legit. and he took Jr. home. He seemed confused by the whole affair, but understood that it was well meant.
We are very concerned about getting stuck in the middle of a custody dispute, where a non-custodial parent might try to snatch their kid while the estranged spouse is upstairs in the service. Our policy is that only the person who drops the child off can pick them up. But were not exactly dealing with trained/paid professionals here. Like many churches, we're doing well just to get enough volunteers to run the many programs going on.
Fortunately, the chief of police from the town up the road is a member and our elders have tapped his expertise to come up with some good plans and ideas. We just recently went with keyless entry swipe cards, as it seemed that after twenty years, every body and their brother had a key to the building.
One big concern is that on week days the secretary and the custodian are the only ones in the building....which is fairly large. The concern is that someone might target the secretary. Fortuantely, as the church has more and more going on, there are fewer times when the building isn't more occupied.
Had some knuckle head who tagged along to youth group break in with his buddy and steal the youth pastors bow (we have an archery set up in the gym). They even started to paint a swastika on the youth center wall. As is often the case, the kind of kids who do this type of stuff aren't to bright and they were caught trying to sell the bow two days later. And though the church didn't really want to make a big deal out of prosecuting Beavus and Co., the state automatically refers all of these type of incidents for review for possible prosecution as a hate crime.
So that's some thoughts on our disjointed efforts. I'd say on any given Sunday there are at least four or five men packing in the congregation. It is all low key and is rarely discussed from the "pulpet" though, as there are certainly some members who have pacifist leanings, or even a few anti's. Our leadership doesn't want to make the "gun thing" an issue that might turn people off from the primary message and mission of the church.
Now a funny anecdote. Our senior pastor is an avid hunter and fisherman and has his carry permit. When another brother learned that I had obtained my permit, he mentioned it to pastor. The following Sunday, I was turned around leaning over the back of my chair to talk to someone and my sweater slipped up over my holster. At the same time, a lady who was looking my way had an odd expression on her face. I thought for sure I had been made. Well a day or two later I was talking to pastor and he say's "hey I heard you brought a gun to church. My wife was at a meeting and said that all the lady's were talking about it". My heart sank...but it turns out that he was just pulling my leg, having heard that I now had my permit.
Christmas Eve. we had a children's program and afterward when I greeted our senior pastor, who is very much a mentor and father figure to me, I gave him a big bear hug, and inadvertantly flipped his sport jacket up over the full frame .45 he was carrying OWB. Fortunately he was standing in a doorway and was able to discreatly fix his "wardrobe casualty". Hey, you know what they say about paybacks. I told my wife later in the day and we both agreed that it made us feel loved, to know that our shepherd was prepared to put his life on the line for the little sheep.
That's life at this end. I need to step up to the plate and get more involved, as our "security team", which is primarily a collateral duty for the ushers, is kind of a cluster.
My thoughts exaclty.
As for the Christian ethics of personal defense, there is some very good logic and reasoning to be found in the section of the Westminster Confession of Faith were a Christian's moral OBLIGATION to resist evil is addressed.
SpeedAKL
Member
This is something that I've wrestled with theologically in the past, even posting a THR topic on it. Personally, I am all for people carrying in church and have concluded that my faith does not preclude self-defense or the defense of others. Church congregations are easy targets for a mass shooting in that they have a large number of generally peaceful, mostly unarmed people gathered in a single room with minimal entrances and exits.
I'm heavily involved in a Christian ministry on a college campus and would carry but for two unfortunate reasons: 1. my school prohibits CCW and will expel anyone who does, and 2. many people in our ministry and in particular on our leadership team are anti-gun, and even many of those who acknowledge the right to own a firearm only view that right in the context of "sporting" purposes (i.e. what they normally see me and my buddies using them for) and maintain that Christians do not have a right to self-defense. If CCW were allowed on campus, I would certainly consider carrying, but it would likely result in my removal from the position if I were found out.
I'm heavily involved in a Christian ministry on a college campus and would carry but for two unfortunate reasons: 1. my school prohibits CCW and will expel anyone who does, and 2. many people in our ministry and in particular on our leadership team are anti-gun, and even many of those who acknowledge the right to own a firearm only view that right in the context of "sporting" purposes (i.e. what they normally see me and my buddies using them for) and maintain that Christians do not have a right to self-defense. If CCW were allowed on campus, I would certainly consider carrying, but it would likely result in my removal from the position if I were found out.
I feel it is entirely your call and matters not to me. I do not know what God thinks about it. I have close family who believe it is a sin to take another’s life even to save their own or their children’s. I do not think they would approve of weapons in a place of worship under any circumstance. Obviously many at THR feel differently. In MI, it is against the law to CC in a place of worship “unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility”.
I will tell you this though. In January 2001 my governor signed into law legislation basically making MI “shall issue”. Previously, obtaining a concealed pistol license (CPL) was impossible if not well connected in most counties. The institution of my faith in this state supported a referendum effort to repeal this “shall issue” law. That marked a huge change in my relationship with my church. The damage done has not been repaired. I have tried broaching the subject of use of lethal force in protection of life w/ church officials. The responses ranged from neutral to negative. I rarely attended services for this church now.
Who are you trying to reach through this new ministry?
I will tell you this though. In January 2001 my governor signed into law legislation basically making MI “shall issue”. Previously, obtaining a concealed pistol license (CPL) was impossible if not well connected in most counties. The institution of my faith in this state supported a referendum effort to repeal this “shall issue” law. That marked a huge change in my relationship with my church. The damage done has not been repaired. I have tried broaching the subject of use of lethal force in protection of life w/ church officials. The responses ranged from neutral to negative. I rarely attended services for this church now.
Who are you trying to reach through this new ministry?
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Sans Authoritas
member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,126
A hat rack... you don't see many of those anymore, let alone someone hanging his firearm on it!
-Sans Authoritas
-Sans Authoritas
I am on my church security detail and carry. A few of us do - most don't. Our detail includes LE officers who do carry and sometime come in uniform as well. After Colorado, I upped my typical carry from a BUG type gun to a service sized hi-cap semi-auto with a spare mag.
CalebJns
Member
I really like the info SSN Vet has given...I like the security steps they have taken.
As far as the whole discussion...For me, I really don't think God would want any of us to become like helpless sheep, and go before the slaughter! From my studies of the scriptures for a Christian to lay down their life for: 1. Their Beliefs (School shooters asking, "do you renounce God?"), and one replying NO, and loosing their life, is a lot different then just allowing someone to take your life, just because you don't think it is "right" to fight back. 2. For someone else...Greater Love hath no man than this, than a man lay down his life for a friend - Jn 15:13. Thus the idea of 'running toward the threat', which I would like to think I would do as well...especially since I would be the one seeing it first (Facing the back of the sanctuary, Preaching)
Carrying at Church (even for me as Pastor) Is just as necessary as carrying anywhere else. As crazy as people have become, and as much "hate" for God and the things of "religion" I would say it has become a necessity to carry. Look back to when this Beautiful Country was born...they all carried: To Church, to the stores, to town meetings, etc...what has changed? nothing really, there are still people out there wanting to hurt people, just because...God will watch for us, but also I think He wants and expects us to watch for ourselves as well!
Taking Scripture completely out of context...There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. - 1 Cor 10:13. AGAIN I AM TAKING THIS COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT - BUT IT DOES FIT FOR CCW AT CHURCH!
As far as the whole discussion...For me, I really don't think God would want any of us to become like helpless sheep, and go before the slaughter! From my studies of the scriptures for a Christian to lay down their life for: 1. Their Beliefs (School shooters asking, "do you renounce God?"), and one replying NO, and loosing their life, is a lot different then just allowing someone to take your life, just because you don't think it is "right" to fight back. 2. For someone else...Greater Love hath no man than this, than a man lay down his life for a friend - Jn 15:13. Thus the idea of 'running toward the threat', which I would like to think I would do as well...especially since I would be the one seeing it first (Facing the back of the sanctuary, Preaching)
Carrying at Church (even for me as Pastor) Is just as necessary as carrying anywhere else. As crazy as people have become, and as much "hate" for God and the things of "religion" I would say it has become a necessity to carry. Look back to when this Beautiful Country was born...they all carried: To Church, to the stores, to town meetings, etc...what has changed? nothing really, there are still people out there wanting to hurt people, just because...God will watch for us, but also I think He wants and expects us to watch for ourselves as well!
Taking Scripture completely out of context...There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. - 1 Cor 10:13. AGAIN I AM TAKING THIS COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT - BUT IT DOES FIT FOR CCW AT CHURCH!
Sans Authoritas
member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2008
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- 1,126
But look at the proportion of Christian churches to synagogues and mosques. 30 to 2 probably breaks even, ratio-wise.
-Sans Authoritas
MaterDei
Member
The churches are not catching on fire by themselves, they are being set on fire. If you can make the assumption that Christians are not burning down Christian churches and likewise Muslims and Jews are not burning down their own buildings then what you have is a very small percentage of the population setting fire to 30 buildings and a very large percentage setting fire to 4.
Tom Fury
Member
I carry in church; Man, the possibilities for concealment offerred by some of the bible covers available these days; S&W 457 a favorite.
2/3s of our elders do too; one likes a S&W M19 under a hawaiian shirt; Hogue grips.
New thread: Church guns! More flashy or less than BBQ guns?
re: God will protect you; I don't have that rev yet bro; I don't think you do either, though
God helps those who help themselves ain't biblical either;
Being a Christian doesn't mean we get to wrap ourselves in dogma and feel as secure as we would with a Second Chance vest and a DE .44; It means we get to make hard choices with faith balancing the very best judgement we can generate and live with them.
cheers, TF
2/3s of our elders do too; one likes a S&W M19 under a hawaiian shirt; Hogue grips.
New thread: Church guns! More flashy or less than BBQ guns?
re: God will protect you; I don't have that rev yet bro; I don't think you do either, though
God helps those who help themselves ain't biblical either;
Being a Christian doesn't mean we get to wrap ourselves in dogma and feel as secure as we would with a Second Chance vest and a DE .44; It means we get to make hard choices with faith balancing the very best judgement we can generate and live with them.
cheers, TF
1911 guy
Member
A couple points.
First, and minor to this discussion, is that the scripture quoted in the post by fivebillionacres is very easy to misunderstand if A)taken out of context and B)not allowing for the expression of ancient greek vs. modern english and cultural context. The slapping on the cheek and turning the other cheek denotes a dismissive and demeaning gesture, not a violent physical threat. Ask your pastor to do a word study on the passage (Logos software is great and most pastors have it now) and you may be surprised. That's the problem with translations. We've got good ones, but they are still translations.
Now my thoughts and experience with CCW and church security. I CCW and am the song leader for Sunday morning worship services. One of the Deacons also CCWs'. The pastor (who also happens to be my old man), carries sometimes. We have a small church, usually 50 to 75 people and not a very large sanctuary. Three guns lets us cover all entrances (one front, one back) with a spare. For most of the service, my family and I sit in the right front, the deacon that carries is in the left rear and my dad (pastor) is center front, obviously. No handguns are visible. The idea is to offer security from a remote chance, not freak out the little old ladies and distract from the worship service.
We have a plan, a very basic one. We're dealing with three non-rambo types and a small crowd that would be panicked if attacked. Intricate plans would be doomed to fail. Our plan is to close distance with the threat to minimize misses and then escort everyone to the fellowship hall (finished basement) with more control over entrance/exit and call the cops from the phone there.
First, and minor to this discussion, is that the scripture quoted in the post by fivebillionacres is very easy to misunderstand if A)taken out of context and B)not allowing for the expression of ancient greek vs. modern english and cultural context. The slapping on the cheek and turning the other cheek denotes a dismissive and demeaning gesture, not a violent physical threat. Ask your pastor to do a word study on the passage (Logos software is great and most pastors have it now) and you may be surprised. That's the problem with translations. We've got good ones, but they are still translations.
Now my thoughts and experience with CCW and church security. I CCW and am the song leader for Sunday morning worship services. One of the Deacons also CCWs'. The pastor (who also happens to be my old man), carries sometimes. We have a small church, usually 50 to 75 people and not a very large sanctuary. Three guns lets us cover all entrances (one front, one back) with a spare. For most of the service, my family and I sit in the right front, the deacon that carries is in the left rear and my dad (pastor) is center front, obviously. No handguns are visible. The idea is to offer security from a remote chance, not freak out the little old ladies and distract from the worship service.
We have a plan, a very basic one. We're dealing with three non-rambo types and a small crowd that would be panicked if attacked. Intricate plans would be doomed to fail. Our plan is to close distance with the threat to minimize misses and then escort everyone to the fellowship hall (finished basement) with more control over entrance/exit and call the cops from the phone there.
lee n. field
Member
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- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 4,319
deleted
ctdonath
Member
The original term translated as "slap" indicates an offense or insult - not to be confused with grave/lethal harm.
The term is more "live by the sword", as in use it for their daily activity. The incident depicted was not an immediately life-threatening event, but more a butting-heads sociopolitical confrontation.
Of note, the criticized action was against a member of a heavily-armed mob; had the incident not been promptly resolved as it was, it very likely would have escalated badly and indeed the disciple who used that sword would have died by the sword.
Armed action is a last-ditch effort, not standard operating procedure.
Should armed defense have been needed in that situation, a legion of supernatural warriors was on call. The verses given do not condemn armed defense, they merely observe that there is a place for it - and this situation wasn't.
More relevant to this thread is the verse where He makes a whip and violently drives merchants out of the Temple. There indeed are situations where people need be forcefully removed from a house of worship.
Tribal
Member
That sounds like a good idea. For church carry, I'd think the tacticool factor would have to be as close to zero as you could make it.
docmagnum357
Member
I appreciate the comments, particularly from jon76', ssn vet, sgtwaldo, and caleb. I was in a hurry yesterday, and didn't include everything relevent, and the replys sound just like my concerns, thoughts, feelings on the issue. I appreciated the comments from the people opposed to carry in church, too.
Our main concerns are not mass shootings. While this could happen, we are much more concerned about domestic disputes that spill over into the church parking lot, non custodial parents picking up kids from day care, disruptions(how do you throw a drunk out of church? Is there a right way to do that?) vandalism, theft and armed robbery, and just general safety. A little ole' lady slipping and falling because she has to park to far from the front door is just as great a concern as an estranged wife being attacked by a jealous husband.
I was very relieved when I went to our meeting. Our "trainer" is literally world class. He actually trains executive protection people for defense contractors. No Bull. He is a law enforcement trainer, and has twenty something years experience as a street cop. He has been born again for almost thirty years. There are 4 ex law enforcement officers in our group, and I am as sure as I can be that each man on the team is doing his best in his daily walk with Christ. My eyes tear up now, thinking about the testimony of the man who will be in charge of the group. You don't often hear a 240 lbs. MAN, in full Sherrif's department uniform, have broken voice and shaking hands telling what Jesus has done for him. You don't often hear a man who teaches hand to hand combat to defense contractors tell you that you had better be prayed up, and that the battle is the Lord's.
All of us are CCW permit holders, and I am CCW permit instructor. I am 39 years old, and I think I am the youngest member of our team. It felt good to be around older men, "...full of wisdom and the Holy Ghost,". I am a Deacon, and one other man is as well. The best part is that there is pastorial oversight. We will be a full ministry.
The big danger for a church security team is civil liability. If you have to remove a disruptive person, you had better have your ducks in a row. The church is there to serve people, and people who disagree with you should see that you are reasonable and fair, in spite of your differences and their bad behaivior. If someone is a deadly threat, there should be no hesitation to get down to business, whether it be fists or firearms. Things just have to be done decently, and in order.
By the way, in North Carolina, carry in church is legal, unless posted against. The general consensus is that we will not post the church property against legal concealed carry, as it will offend law abiders, and not deter law breakers. Personally, I carry 24/7 anyway, and probably would not have joined my church if the pastorate had been anti carry. Our pastor has said privately he thinks its a good idea, as long as someone is competent.
My struggle has not been with the moral right or wrong of deadly force, or even guns in church, but more with offending those who don't agree with me. I certainly DON'T know everything, and I am sure others don't either. I would really hate to answer to GOD for offending them. But I would hate worse to answer for not doing anything, when I am more qualified than most people. Our trainer pointed to me, and said "God made you the way he did for a reason." I am six feet tall and weigh 290 lbs. I am a stone mason by trade. It woud be a very bad idea to get into a fight with me. I don't work out, I work. I don't have children, and my wife will not likely go to pieces if something happens to me. I am an ordained Deacon, just like Steven and Phillip. I love the lost souls that Christ died for, and a Deacon's job, if you read the book of Acts, is to provide for the physical well being of the church, allowing the pastor(s) to provide for the spiritual well being of God's children. who Who better to run toward trouble?
Our main concerns are not mass shootings. While this could happen, we are much more concerned about domestic disputes that spill over into the church parking lot, non custodial parents picking up kids from day care, disruptions(how do you throw a drunk out of church? Is there a right way to do that?) vandalism, theft and armed robbery, and just general safety. A little ole' lady slipping and falling because she has to park to far from the front door is just as great a concern as an estranged wife being attacked by a jealous husband.
I was very relieved when I went to our meeting. Our "trainer" is literally world class. He actually trains executive protection people for defense contractors. No Bull. He is a law enforcement trainer, and has twenty something years experience as a street cop. He has been born again for almost thirty years. There are 4 ex law enforcement officers in our group, and I am as sure as I can be that each man on the team is doing his best in his daily walk with Christ. My eyes tear up now, thinking about the testimony of the man who will be in charge of the group. You don't often hear a 240 lbs. MAN, in full Sherrif's department uniform, have broken voice and shaking hands telling what Jesus has done for him. You don't often hear a man who teaches hand to hand combat to defense contractors tell you that you had better be prayed up, and that the battle is the Lord's.
All of us are CCW permit holders, and I am CCW permit instructor. I am 39 years old, and I think I am the youngest member of our team. It felt good to be around older men, "...full of wisdom and the Holy Ghost,". I am a Deacon, and one other man is as well. The best part is that there is pastorial oversight. We will be a full ministry.
The big danger for a church security team is civil liability. If you have to remove a disruptive person, you had better have your ducks in a row. The church is there to serve people, and people who disagree with you should see that you are reasonable and fair, in spite of your differences and their bad behaivior. If someone is a deadly threat, there should be no hesitation to get down to business, whether it be fists or firearms. Things just have to be done decently, and in order.
By the way, in North Carolina, carry in church is legal, unless posted against. The general consensus is that we will not post the church property against legal concealed carry, as it will offend law abiders, and not deter law breakers. Personally, I carry 24/7 anyway, and probably would not have joined my church if the pastorate had been anti carry. Our pastor has said privately he thinks its a good idea, as long as someone is competent.
My struggle has not been with the moral right or wrong of deadly force, or even guns in church, but more with offending those who don't agree with me. I certainly DON'T know everything, and I am sure others don't either. I would really hate to answer to GOD for offending them. But I would hate worse to answer for not doing anything, when I am more qualified than most people. Our trainer pointed to me, and said "God made you the way he did for a reason." I am six feet tall and weigh 290 lbs. I am a stone mason by trade. It woud be a very bad idea to get into a fight with me. I don't work out, I work. I don't have children, and my wife will not likely go to pieces if something happens to me. I am an ordained Deacon, just like Steven and Phillip. I love the lost souls that Christ died for, and a Deacon's job, if you read the book of Acts, is to provide for the physical well being of the church, allowing the pastor(s) to provide for the spiritual well being of God's children. who Who better to run toward trouble?
*Humor on*
Carrying a gun to church would be blasphemy - as that means doubting that God watches over the attending worshippers.
Logically it wouldn´t make sense to go to church at all.
On the other hand if you were to attend a congregation where
people are, that actually do not believe what they say they believe,
i´d feel surrounded by splitpersonalities and bigotry... and better bring
a gun, to make sure all those armed halfbelievers don´t help
me ascend to heaven all to soon.
*humor off*
i think courtrooms, delivery rooms, schools and churches
are places where guns should be banned.
Carrying a gun to church would be blasphemy - as that means doubting that God watches over the attending worshippers.
Logically it wouldn´t make sense to go to church at all.
On the other hand if you were to attend a congregation where
people are, that actually do not believe what they say they believe,
i´d feel surrounded by splitpersonalities and bigotry... and better bring
a gun, to make sure all those armed halfbelievers don´t help
me ascend to heaven all to soon.
*humor off*
i think courtrooms, delivery rooms, schools and churches
are places where guns should be banned.
csmkersh
Member
If you're legal to own a firearm, no place should be off-limits.
- Status
