guns, liberals, and relationships

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Princess Marie.

As so many others have already offered, I too offer you a warm welcome to THR.

Hang out long. There are MANY fine people here, and MUCH to learn.

Simply put, THR - IMO - is the finest gun forums on the Internet, bar none.

Several of our finest thinkers have already responded to your query.
Amongst them: Oleg, Pax (do check out her fine web site), Barbara, Hso...the list is long.

I won't add anything else as an answer to your questions. Others have done good with that.

I'll only say, despite my large post count, I've been here only 1 year, and have learned the equivalent of a university degree in firearms in that short time.

Write amongst us for a while, and teach your children (most importantly) and your bf what you learn.

Ask questions. Take answers with several salt grains. Then, ask more questions.

SEARCH is your friend.

Welcome.

Nem
 
the next step...

In the middle of crazy last-minute packing (we move saturday) we were able to have a brief discussion about guns. Far more mature this time.
I believe I simply scared the hell out of my S/O before.

In a nutshell, he would feel far more comfortable with me having a shotgun than a handgun. Turns out his father pulled a gun (hand gun) on him when he stumbled home in the middle of the night as a teenager.
The question of whether or not I could actually kill somebody in self-protection. I certainly could if I was protecting myself or my family. My boyfriend says that, although he would "defend us to his death", he doesn't know if he could actually pull the trigger and shoot someone. So this has become an interesting sub-theme of our discussion. He also liked the idea of us taking a gun class together- great idea from those who posted it!

That said, I am going to ask my dad what shotguns he has around (he's collected guns for 30 years). I'll report back here if any are available- I also have to look up gun transfer laws between Arizona and California.

Victory for now!
Marie
 
In a nutshell, he would feel far more comfortable with me having a shotgun than a handgun.
Hmm. I'm reluctant to even touch that one.

I've got both - two handguns, and a shotgun. (See user name for the later.)

If I had to have one pointed at me, I'd probably take a handgun.

Don't know where I'd go next in that discussion.

Either - shotgun or handgun - is a lethal weapon.

I'd suggest that bf may have some issues to work through with guns, regardless of whether handgun or shotgun.

OK, I'll step aside and let others offer advice.

Good luck with the move.

Nem
 
comfort levels

Nem-
I have the feeling that if I show my adeptness and respect for a good shotgun, that my boyfriend will eventually come around to the idea of a handgun.
I agree, many issues for him to sort through, regarding guns included. I need to stand up for my right to own a gun, and for my strong maternal instincts of protection. But I do want to consider the rights of the man I live with as well. This is a bit of a compromise- and compromising personal safety may be a fool's idea. But I was completely surprised that he even acquiesed to the concept of me owning a gun at all.
All guns have one purpose: to kill. I think there is a visual concept of people these days, seeing the handgun used more often in the media. All guns must be respected.

-Marie
 
If it is your dad's shotgun, there is nothing to do - you just take possession. If it were an assault rifle, which is a no-no in California, or a handgun, which requires registration there, it is a bit more complicated. But standard long guns are no problem.

I, too, would rather face down a handgun than a shotgun, but in the spirit of family compromise, I say go for it.
 
A_P,

You raise good points. I hear you.

You've come to the right place to discuss these issues.

It may take a while to resolve them,
but you've come to the right place to discuss them.

Best regards,

Nem
 
Armed_princess,

Shotgun would be an excellent choice for the purposes you have described.

When you said "All guns have one purpose: to kill" I think you were meaning to describe your S/O's perspective, but whether it is his, yours, or shared you might consider that many of us would consider the opportunity to live on 300 acres near Placerville with nothing but a .22 to be a gift from God, and killing does not need to be a motivation (assuming it is ok to shoot there). Consider starting with a .22; a little searching will bring up many convincing arguments from those who are more eloquent than me.

John
 
I just found this forum as well and have a few similar issues with my girlfriend. Her fears, however, seem mostly baseless while your boyfriend apparently has reason to be uncomfortable around guns. My girlfriend has become very comfortable around my guns and my shooting hobby really only annoys her... somewhat like my football watching.
My first was a .22 rifle given to me by my Grandfather and then a 12ga. shotgun. I had some experience with shooting before buying the shotgun, but it was definitely a simple way to start as I started looking into forums like this and learning more. If it makes him more comfortable and he's living there too, I'd have to say stick with a shotgun for now and I think he'll come around. I remember when I started shooting (consistently) and I was more than a little nervous around guns I knew nothing about. I can only imagine what this fear would have been like if I had been subjected to some gun related trauma. Power tools, cars, motorcycles, or anything else that can quickly cause serious bodily harm could have the same effect. Once you and your S/O learn safe handling and basic operation, I'm sure he wouldn't mind a handgun or 2....and a couple rifles....maybe another shotgun....oh, and C&R stuff is fun too.
 
Hmmm....

Well, having a gun pulled on you by a family member would, in all fairness, be a traumatic experience. This is probably a mental trauma scar that he has carried for many years.

I would suspect that some counseling sessions with a professional therapist would do a world of good in easing him into the idea of having firearms in the home.

I think the other portion of this is education in all of the relevant areas.

Many people unfamiliar with guns are scared of them just because they are lethal weapons, failing to understand that what they truly are -- tools -- like any other tool which could also be deadly weapons (hammer, ax, kitchen knife, baseball bat, etc.). Guns don't have any inherent "evil" properties and, in my own personal experience and from experiences of others relayed to me, guns actually help make people MORE responsible citizens -- not some evil vile bad people. It just happens that guns are the great equalizer tool which allow people, particularly smaller people or people that are outnumbered to effectively defend themselves and their families.

Finally, the topic of talking to significant others is well discussed here on THR. Do a search for this topic and I'm certain you'll find hours of reading and helpful suggestions.



The best of luck.
 
ARMED PRINCESS - "But I do want to consider the rights of the man I live with as well. This is a bit of a compromise- and compromising personal safety may be a fool's idea. But I was completely surprised that he even acquiesed to the concept of me owning a gun at all."

A.P., perhaps I'm misinterpeting this, but it seems to me that you're saying you ALMOST have to have his permission for you to own a firearm(s). It is YOUR life, your children's lives, you wish to protect. Your b.f., in my opinion, has NO say so or "right" in the matter, as to your being able to protect yourself and children from either evil people, or four legged predators. Nor is it up to him to dictate to you, the type of firearm he'll "allow" you to own for your protection. Sounds like a vey controlling young man, to me.

His previous experience of allegedly having a handgun pointed at him is totally meaningless, when it comes to your own self protection.

As for your learning to shoot using a shotgun, I think this is very unwise. A shotgun, whether a 12, 16, or 20 gauge, has stiff recoil, and is expensive to shoot. I doubt very seriously that most people, men or women, just learning to shoot, will become proficient with a shotgun.

I still suggest you start with a .22 L.R. handgun, or rifle. Once proficient, and safe, then move up to heavier caliber firearms, if you so choose.

FWIW.

L.W.
 
Leanwolf, lets calm down a little and read between the lines. People are often too quick to jump to conclusions based on 1 sentence that is often written w/o being proof-read. It sounds like Armed_Princess is RELIEVED that here stubborn SO is willing to compromise on the issue rather than force a big argument.

Armed_princess and mstirton,
The best way to get some one who is nervous around firearms to relax to the idea is with gradual, positive reinforcement. If you treat your guns responsible and let them see that they CAN be handled safely, they will eventually lose their nervousness. Offer (but do not push) to envolve them in shooting activites and let them come into shooting at their own pace. They may never like guns and shooting as much as you do, but there is no need for them to be afraid.

Edit: As far as shotguns go, there are numerous threads on the value of shotguns for defense and MANY different oppinions. Keep in mind that a shotgun is a close-medium range gun. For defensive purposes, it is only useful for about the same distance than a pistol, after that the shot spreads and the chance of killing is reduced (look at the Dick Cheney accident). I know plenty of women that shoot 12 gauge (although 20ga might be better to learn on), I would advise a recoil pad and shooting vest to keep from having a bruised shoulder.
 
Welcome! I think you will find that THR is a really great place for learning about firearms. Congratulations on making some headway with your BF.

The only thing I would add to all the great advice is that you should see if the Second Amendment Sisters have a chapter in your new area. The SAS is a terrific group for women who shoot. :)
 
Turns out his father pulled a gun (hand gun) on him when he stumbled home in the middle of the night as a teenager.

You'd think he would learn that stumbling into an armed man's house in the middle of the night is an unwise thing to do, not that guns are bad.

Help him through this fear, but do not let it dictate how you choose to protect those you love. Your want/need to protect yourself and your family trumps his fears of an inanimate object everytime. A good partner will be an asset in defending your loved ones, not a liability and that is what he is in his present state of mind.

I have faith that patience and a good education in firearm-ownership will triumph over this situation.
 
I believe that interstate transfers of any type require an FFL at least at one end. So technically that would include a gift from one state resident to a resident of another state.

Check this thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=216543&highlight=interstate+transfer

Good luck, you've gotten lots of great advice. BTW shotgun is a great choice too, IF you learn how to use it properly with various types of payloads. Training again, get some..........there is a terrific shotgun forum here on THR with moderators and members that know LOTS about them.
 
Black bears are generally not too big a concern, cougars are more worrisome.

Very good advice has been presented, however I have two things to add:

If you are possibly considering a rifle or carbine, the M1 carbine is light with little recoil. Easy to carry. The nice thing is that it is easy to shoot and practice isn't going to be uncomfortable.

The second thing is that you should consider getting a larger dog, retreivers and labs are good examples. Cougars and bears like easy prey, they will avoid attacking something that can injure them. Adults of smaller frame as well as children are easy targets. Larger dogs are not, I haven't heard of any attacks when there is a dog in the party. Dogs are also more aware of their surroundings than us and if something is wrong, you will be notified. Also both retrievers and labs make great family pets and are great with kids. If you do consider a dog but aren't up for a puppy and all that has to offer you can adopt a mature dog that has been trained and is easire for first time masters.

I'm not suggesting a dog instead of a firearm, just adding an extra layer to your security.
 
Turns out his father pulled a gun (hand gun) on him when he stumbled home in the middle of the night as a teenager.

You'd think he would learn that stumbling into an armed man's house in the middle of the night is an unwise thing to do, not that guns are bad.


So did my dad. I forgot my key one night, and rang the door, then banged on dad and mom's window, then went back to the door. After a few minutes, I made DARN SURE to yell "Dad, it's ME!" quite a few times. But I guess I already knew dad would be coming to the door armed. Sure enough, he answered with his .44 Magnum at his side. I guess I had, earlier in life, already learned the main lesson here: Know your father - not "fear guns." I realize that my situation is a bit different than the BF, but not by much...
 
One note that I haven't seen yet: Guns on TV are just wonderful and work really well in any situation. Guns in real life are excruciatingly loud and will damage the hearing of yourself, your kids, and anyone else around you. If possible, you should keep some hearing protection handy, and have a plan for the kids, like make sure you shout at them to cover their ears if you are in a situation where you will have to shoot, and if time permits. I keep a pair of muffs beside my pistol in my house.

Many members of THR, myself included, have that awful ear ringing that NEVER goes away, and most of that, oddly enough, is NOT due to firearms, but other loud noise exposure. Mostly it is military guys and grandpas who didn't use ear protection back in their day who have tinnitus from firearm noise. Protect your hearing if at all possible.

Now, Welcome to the High Road! :D
 
Lots of good advice here and taking a class together seems like a smart and obvious step.

One thing you may wish to consider when you are discussing what type of firearm is appropriate is convenience. If you are working on 300 acres, it is a lot easier to have a handgun on your hip than to carry a shotgun everywhere you go. If you have children around, it is also a lot easier to keep positive control over a gun that you wear as opposed to one that is sitting in the truck or leaning against a fence (and the gun will be there when you need it as a bonus).

A shotgun or rifle is certainly a much more effective firearm; but sometimes the convenience of a handgun is worth the tradeoff. The ideal solution is to have both a handgun and long gun of course :D
 
ahhh...a .410!

get yerself a cool .410 shotgun that you can use for both skeet/trap and also shoot in some revolvers.

Your allowed to conceal carry on your own property in CA, a little glock packed with .40sw will be fine for any predator.
 
So far you've received good input. Next subject.

All guns have one purpose: to kill.
-Marie

This is NOT a true statement. There is the pupose to PROTECT - the very one you are pursuing. There are MANY firearm related sports that have absolutely nothing to do with the taking of any type of life. I've never heard of an an Olympic Hunting event that involved any sort of actual game animal. Not a huge obstacle, just one that you really need to remove from your thinking processes. Can they kill? Absolutely! But so can cars, planes, knives, sticks, and any number of other devices. The primary purpose has for the most part always been as a tool to keep from being killed, unfortunately this most often requires that the threat be removed by ultimate force. With out the tool to deliver that force the good guy is defenseles and the bad guys (or hungry/angry animals) win by default.
 
The purpose of any weapon is NOT to destroy life but to preserve it.

i think the sugestions of a .357/44 lever gun is agreat idea! choose the rifle that matches wichever handgun you decide to take. :)
 
I recall it being said somewhere on this forum a long time ago that while some people think a gun is designed to kill, in reality, a firearm is only designed to launch a bullet (or shot charge). What that projectile is launched at is up to the operator and whether it kills or not is dependant on the operator's intent and subsequent bullet placement.

I also agree that it's your/your-children's lives and not anybody else's. I'm not in the habit of advising anybody to compromise their safety.
 
Armed_princess, welcome, you initiated a fascinating discussion and lots of good advice. It's one of the most interesting threads I have read since I signed up here almost a year ago. I hope you don't find it too overwhelming. Getting quickly from a pellet gun to a truly lethal weapon is not easy, but is doable if you are determined.

There are a few points that struck me as not being well resolved.

One is what weapon you will carry initially, and after you are more accustomed to firearms.


Since you have the offer, I'd accept the snub-nosed .357 and a holster, and buy a minimum of 200 rounds of .38 special for it to get accustomed to it. Get 1 box of .357 for serious business. At least you will have an effective basis to get started, although it will not be optimal. Make sure you are thoroughly instructed in its operation and get one supervised practice session at a minimum.

I make this suggestion because you need to be armed right away. Waiting for the perfect decision for 6 months leaves you exposed for that time.

If you can afford it, buy an inexpensive .22 revolver & holster of about the same conformation to train with. [Please stay away from semi-automatic pistols (also referred to as autoloaders or pistols): they are too complicated and usually offer less power than a revolver for the same bullet.] Get 1000 rounds of cheap .22 ammo for practice (no more than $20). Plinking at cans is lots of fun, and the kids can join in (maybe the pellet gun for the younger). Being able to hit a soda can at 7-10 yards is plenty of a challenge, and you do not need to train for bulls-eyes for the kind of defensive shooting you need. For serious practice, use a big piece of cardboard, so you know where your misses are going; it's not practice if you don't know what mistake you are making. Add a 3" felt-pen circle to aim at, & try to keep your hits within a 9-12" circle at any range.

Without the kids, practice with the snubbie and .38s: you will probably not become as accurate with it as the .22. However, remember your predator will offer a target of more like 12-18", so just get a bigger can. Try a few .357s when you feel comfortable with it just so you know how they feel. If you have to use it in an incident, your adrenalin rush will will interfere with careful aiming if you have not trained, but it will prevent you from noticing the noise and recoil. However, the recoil will throw a second shot off target if you don't practice re-aiming quickly (and you WILL need a second shot in all probability).


The .22 is NOT sufficient for cougar, and not ideal for human predators, although it may be sufficient to dissuade/disable them in a pinch. Certainly carry it until you can manage the .38/.357. And it's OK to carry .38 rounds until you are ready for the .357s.


The biggest problem for you is whether to carry a revolver or a long gun (rifle or shotgun). No matter what weapon you select, you have to carry it! Long guns are heavy and awkward, and it's easy to be tempted to leave them at home, or put them down while you are working. You also have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, which is usually easier with a long gun. However, as was pointed out, you can be ambushed by a cougar or human predator, and not have the opportunity to deploy a long gun, while you very probably could get a shorter-barreled revolver into play. So there are three different variables to consider, convenience, ability to hit, and ability to bring the gun to bear on a target. A difficult choice.

It is quite difficult to place a revolver shot where you want under stress, even at short range, (without a LOT of practice under stress - as I discovered in a competition). It is also unusual to get a 1 shot stop. Adrenaline keeps predators on the attack until sufficiently disabled. You also need to know where to aim to place your shots effectively. I can't go into that here, but there are two strategies - shoot for vital organs (usually the lower part of the chest cavity where hear and lungs lie - remember, 1 shot may not stop and plan on several), or shoot to "break down" the attacker. That means disable it so it can't advance: a shot that breaks the shoulder or pelvis will likely accomplish this; however just because the predator falls, don't assume too quickly that the fight is yet over. (Head shots are usually too difficult, especially on a moving target, and not always effective).

Remember, I mentioned that it is difficult to place shots with a snubbie even at very close range, especially when you are rushed. The .44 Redhawk is a much better weapon, accurate at longer ranges and more powerful. Like the long guns, it can be more of a "standoff" weapon. After you have mastered the "feel" of the snub, I recommend giving the Redhawk a try. I have shot one; it is a lot of gun, but it is fun to shoot and very accuate to over 50 yds (you did not mention the barrel length, which is an accuracy factor). If you can master the Redhawk, its power and accuracy is plenty of protection at short or long range for any threats you will encounter. (You will need help selecting practice and defensive ammo for it). A friend was telling me of a gun club open day where a lot of weapons were out for people to try. He demoed several revolvers, and then let folk pick one to try. He directed a little ole grandma to a .38, and she shot it with a big smile. Then she pointed to the Redhawk and asked "can I try THAT one?" She fired a few shots with it, put it down, and gave the club member the biggest granma grin he ever saw. I understand how she felt. (Have a Pachmeyer grip fitted to it - much more comfortable to shoot). You can get a sling syle holster for this large revolver (with or without a rain flap), which may be more comfortable that a belt holster.

You will probably do most of your revolver shooting with a 2-handed grip, but you need to be able to shoot one handed in case you are charged, and don't have time to attain a 2-handed grip. The Redhawk may be too heavy for this situation. With a sling style holster holding the .44 in front of your body, you may be able to get two hands on it as fast as one. Another issue is fit (with alll weapons): does the Redhawk fit comfortably in your hand(s). If not, a longer barreled .357 with a smaller grip may be better for you. A suggestion: look for a Smith and Wesson Combat Masterpiece with 6" barrel (used - no longer made; lighter frame, smaller grip).

As for long guns, I think shotguns got a bad rap here, generally. A semi-automatic rifle in about .30 caliber is fine, especially a carbine (a short barreled design, like the M1 someone mentioned; they are not made any more, and are a bit pricey. Place the shots the same way as a revolver. The other choice is a short barreled shotgun: my choice is a Model 500 series Mossberg pump gun in 12 guage because it is a litle over $200; make sure it has an extended magazine holding 7 rounds (some don't). Like a rifle, it points accurately. I'd buy dove and quail shot for practice and familiarization, and 00 Buckshot for serious work. You really need to practice working the pump under stress (get your BF to shoot a few hundred rounds through it to loosen up the action; all new guns need some break-in to smooth them out, and to prove their reliability). A 12g shotgun is a formidable weapon at under 25-30 yards. You can shoot a critter in the face with it and almost certainly disable it with the scatter of shot: at shorter ranges it will blow a big hole in the target. Try it on paper at different ranges.

The problem with a shotgun is its recoil. You will need to have a gunsmith cut down the stock to fit you properly, taking into account addition of a good recoil pad; add a sling. When you shoot, as with other weapons, lean into it a bit, so it won't kick you off balance. I have read that a shotgun is commonly carried as a bear gun in Alaska out in the woods and around the cabin because it is quickly deployed, easy to hit with, and hard-hitting. You could probably for your circumstances go down to 20 guage which has lighter recoil, but NOT .410, which is for the birds.

Make sure you are shown in detail and more than once the operation of each weapon you acquire. Probably you will be able to find a near-by family who will take you under their wing and help you with your weapons. In the mean time you can carry the .22 until you are ready for the .357 and or .44. And you can choose between a revolver or long gun according to the occasion. (If I were taking the long gun I would keep a revolver in the truck or on my person - certainly on my person if I were likely to lay down the long gun while working away from it). I'd certainly plan to own one revolver and one long gun at a minimum.

I agree that black bear don't present a big risk (with the possible exception of humans accidently appearing to threaten mama's cubs). Cougar will silently stalk adults and smaller prey like dogs and children, more often than we know, rarely with tragic results. They will come to the house and take cats off the porch (I know of an instance). But encounters are rare. You have not mentioned feral dogs, but they are a potential danger to be aware of. Last, feral humans. The best house defense weapons are generally considered to be a shotgun and a flashlight (with a dog warning system). Will your BF cooperate in a home defense plan? (Lots of discussion on that subject here).

I hope I have tied up some loose ends usefully. I'm sure there will be some disagreement with me - there are as many opinions as there are THR members. Pick what works for you. You will find animated threads here on all the sub-topics we have mentioned.

You MUST dedicate some regular time for practice: I'd suggest a minimum of 1/2 hr/day. Warm up with the .22, then work with the next larger. You need to progresss to an effective weapon ASAP.

I'm sure you know the 4 rules of gun safety, but as a reminder: http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

The fifth rule is to execute a plan to keep your weapons safe from your kids, while having the necessary ones accessible to you. Solutions to this problem tend to be very personal.

I envy your retreat to the Cascades, wish you well and stay safe!

AND KEEP ASKING QUESTIONS! There are lots of other issues you will encounter. Post them or PM individuals.

C
 
What the heck is the deal with people claiming semi-autos are too complicated? For who? How? I'd rather have a semi with some capacity than a wheel gun because someone thinks my brain can't wrap itself around the 2 or 3 steps required to shoot it.
 
The first thing that you need to do is DUMP THE BOYFRIEND then look for a used S&W M-13, which is a 4", heavy bbl, fixed sight revolver. Plenty of power for what you are talking about, relatively easy to handle, and no adjustable sights, like on the M-19 to hang up on anything.
 
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