Guns no longer welcome at Starbucks

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Posted by NavyLDCR: First, for this specific discussion, my personal definition of activist would be one who was carrying a firearm that they normally would not carry, or carrying a firearm in a method that they normally would not carry specifically for the purpose of political reasons. I do not consider myself to be an activist, even though I have attended rallies and "Starbucks appreciation days" because I carried the exact same gun I carry every day in the exact same manner I carry it every day when attending the rallies and "Starbucks appreciation days."
I think that an open carry activist would be better defined as one who actively promotes the practice or legalization of open carry through any means of public expression, whether it involves signage, clothing, vocal communication, marching, or the occupation of an area.

Whether or not the person carries a firearm is irrelevant.
 
The "pro-gun" "community standard" seems to be placing the majority of the blame on the "activists" carrying firearms - all in a legal manner, by the way - while the anti-gun "activists" are getting off relatively scott free by this "community standard".
The anti-gun activists are doing what they always do, what we should expect them to do. The goal achieved was completely in concert with their stated goals and with their past efforts. Furthermore, for the most part, Starbucks ignored their input, maintaining their neutral stance even in the face of anti-gun cries for additional restrictions.

Did the anti-gunners play a part? Of course--a predictable part that should have been precisely what we expected of them.

The activists carrying firearms into Starbucks after having been asked not to, were ostensibly supporting gun rights but ended up actually participating in an effort that led to their rights being restricted and which led to an increase in negative perception of the gun community in the eyes of the general public. It wasn't until the OC activists pushed the issue past the point that Starbucks was willing to tolerate that Starbucks finally changed their position.

I'm not trying to discount the effects that anti-gun protest had on Starbucks, but I think it's important to understand that the goal achieved was consistent with what anti-gunners want.

On the other hand, the OC activists actions not only seem to have had a more significant effect on Starbucks than did the anti-gun protestors input, it's important to note that effect was diametrically opposed to the goals the OC activists wanted to achieve.

I think that's a critical difference. The anti-gunners did what they were expected to do and their input (to some extent, however small) helped to effect a goal that benefited their basic philosophy. The pro-gunners, on the other hand, ignored good advice and participated in activities that ultimately helped to effect a goal that was injurious to their basic philosophy.

What you're saying is roughly equivalent to saying that when a sports team takes advantage of an error by the opposing team to score, that both teams should share equally in the blame. How do you blame the scoring team for doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing? The REAL blame should be ascribed to the team that made the error and that's the team that needs to regroup and try to determine what was done wrong so that the error is not repeated.
 
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Unqualified, all-encompassing statements like that have no hope of being accurate. Open carry has it's place, it's advantages and disadvantages, just like concealed carry does.
 
I went to Starbucks on two of the appreciation days, open carrying a handgun, holstered, dressed neatly.

On the first occasion, I gave the clerk a card with my cash, explaining why I was there. He mentioned that one other person had been in there, and mentioned the appreciation day.

On the second, I was in a bit of a rush, and was just in & out.

I don't know whether my presence was confrontational to anyone; I don't perceive myself as a confrontational or threatening person in any case.

I only went to Starbucks to support their non-policy; I never buy their coffee if I have a choice.

I won't be going out of the way to go to Starbucks again. Big deal; they lose less than $10/year (assuming 5 appreciation days/year)

I still don't know whether our appreciation days helped or hurt our cause. I can see both sides of the argument.

disjointed ramble off
 
Open carry is stupid, even when legal. I'll continue to CCW.
By the same reasoning, everybody who puts a scope on an AR-15 is as equally "stupid" as this guy, right?

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No, but I'll go as far to say that anyone who carries a gun around in a manner that it'll attract attention and make a political statement in the act is.
 
Bullfrog,
By your logic then anyone who OC's is stupid because whether it's their intent to make a political statement or not, it could be perceived that way by someone else. And their perception is the one that matters. Someone may just have their pistol on their hip walking into a convenient store or wherever, and someone may see that and say "See?!? He just has to go showing off his gun because he can. What a jerk!!" That guy wasn't TRYING to draw attention or make a political statement. But because of someone else's perception that's exactly what he did. Correct??
 
I think this is a question of degrees. A handgun in the holster isn’t in your face like and AR in your hands is. You could do that (carry the AR for) a million years and the gun neutral public isn’t going to accept it and when place like Starbucks ban it they aren’t going to rise to our defense.

I can’t say it as eloquently as JohnKSa said it but bottom line the extremist exhibitions hurt us not helped us.

I live in an open carry friendly state and I’ve seen far more people hiking Pikes Peak open carrying than I’ve ever seen open carry around town. I honestly doubt that open carry is ever going to be anymore than a niche of the pro Second Amendment movement and if open carriers keed shoving it in the antis face we’ll probably lose it.
 
Bullfrog,
By your logic then anyone who OC's is stupid because whether it's their intent to make a political statement or not, it could be perceived that way by someone else. And their perception is the one that matters. Someone may just have their pistol on their hip walking into a convenient store or wherever, and someone may see that and say "See?!? He just has to go showing off his gun because he can. What a jerk!!" That guy wasn't TRYING to draw attention or make a political statement. But because of someone else's perception that's exactly what he did. Correct??
I'm going stay High Road on this, but it's awfully dang hard.

No, it is NOT BullfrogKen's logic. He and most others made it perfectly clear that FLAUNTING with guns in the HANDS for IN YOUR FACE extremeism is the difference.
 
By the same reasoning, everybody who puts a scope on an AR-15 is as equally "stupid" as this guy, right?
I have to ask, when you open carry a handgun what do you think the perception of those you meet is going to be? Likewise when you carry a rifle around?

Like it or not the public has a perception of rifles for hunting. Carry one, even slung, in town and people are going to wonder what you are hunting. I won't argue you have the right to do so. Everybody has a Gawd given right to screw up their lives as they see fit. But with rights come duties, it's part of the package.
 
BigBore,

Not at all.

I think I was quite clear when I wrote my words.

This kind of exhibitionism is silly and stupid. Doing it simply for attention is something I cannot support.

Take a look at the guy in this picture. Now are you honestly asking me to believe he carries around his AR-15 with him on a regular basis? There isn't even a sling on it! Not even an old cheap, $4.00 OD green Vietnam-era web sling.


So what's it for?


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I've seen the pictures of these Starbucks events. A whole lot of them are of people who have handguns on their belt, with a shirt that would drape over it and conceal it, but for the fact they pulled it back and stuffed the material in behind the gun so it would be visible.

Kind of like this.


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And this.


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So, what's that for? Convenience?
 
I think this is a question of degrees. A handgun in the holster isn’t in your face like and AR in your hands is.

While maybe true, whether in a holster or in your hands, guns seem to bring out the same sort of sentiment and gut level concern/disgust/hatred/fear for many non-gun people as live snakes do for many people, including gun owners. It really isn't just about how much in your face that it is, but that it is.
 
I never liked Starbuck.Every one I have been in reeks of sour/spoiled milk and a failure to keep the place clean.Floors are alwasy sticky.I get my coffee at Mcds.
 
Ok so I gave it some thought and OC vs CC was not really the issue. The real issue with this thread is that we have a few people that think OC is wrong, and they're wrong since not everyone lives in an urban setting and those that live in a rural setting may OC without breaking any cultural norms. We have some very vocal stubborn people who want to argue that anyone should be able to carry anything in any way any place they like as their 2A right and that anyone that disagrees is not pro-RKBA. We have the majority who think that with rights come responsibilities and that there's as much a time and place for how you carry, OC or CC, as there is for the time and place for how you debate politics or practice your religion. Loud and confrontational practice of a right usually causes people to insist upon limits of how, when, where.
 
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