Guns no longer welcome at Starbucks

[Outlaw Man]

Buying it somewhere else?
You do have the option of continuing to buy from Starbucks while legally carrying. They aren't posting signs. You're still legal to do so.

Which is what I said I'll do (buy elsewhere). I like Dunkin Donuts' coffee better, anyway.

Legal isn't the question. He asked us not to bring guns to his store. If we can't respect his wishes and property rights, we're no better than the people who won't respect our gun rights.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Starbucks is on CNBC and will be running full page ads in newspaper ads tomorrow. Guns are not part of the starbucks issue.

 

[Unk]

Starbuck

Who is going to tell

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Am I the only one that noticed the repeated references to open carry in the letter? This isn’t about concealed carry and it probably isn’t about those that open carry responsibly it’s about the extremists pictured up thread

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

^^^ Maybe you should have written the letter for him.

He wrote what he wrote. Who are we, and why are, to disect it. What you wrote is very clear, what he wrote is not (if that's what he meant).

My point is that that's NOT what he said and that's NOT exactly what he meant, but I believe it's pretty obvious that [what I stated] is exactly what he wants to accomplish. If he wanted people to stop carrying altogether, he would have stores start hanging "gun-free zone" signs. By saying what he said he's trying to put an end to the conflict without modifying their existing neutral stance. So my point is we should try to view it as a neutral place. Which means no shotguns, no AR15s and no 'selfies' with your Glock. Just OC if you normally do, and forget about using it as a place to spread political views. I think that's what the CEO wants.

 

[Impureclient]

Good grief. The couple of people pictured in page 5 of this thread open carrying to prove something, so lame. Who does that if not just to get attention, bad attention.
I'm very pro 2nd but if I actually drank coffee and was inside these stores when they came walking in with shotgun or rifles, I'd probably take cover and get ready to draw.
This odd behavior is what gives us a bad reputation in the media. They obviously just started carrying and needed to prove something to somebody, probably their own ego.

 

[98C5]

Yuck, Charbucks coffee is terrible anyway. I go to Stop In and get coffee. 99 cents any size. The dark roast is solid!

 

[Crashola]

I subscribed to the thought that "Friends don't let friends drink at Starbucks" long before any of this gun-related stuff started to play out.

 

[goon]

Our company’s longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Hate to say it, but it sounds like pro-2A folks acting like invasive jerks is partly to blame for this request.
And after having viewed some of those pics, I'd definitely say that's the case.

The guy's business is his to run as he sees fit. It seems that he tried to walk the least invasive path possible by simply asking for compliance with state laws, but was dragged into the RKBA debate unwillingly. Apparently he feels that his store being in the center of this debate is not good for business.
And Starbucks is in the business of selling coffee.
Business, not activism.
That's that I guess.

I read the CEO's letter.

In the first paragraph he asks that customers not bring firearms into the stores. Nothing about conceal carry or open carry just firearms period.

In the second paragraph he gives a self-serving speech about being part of the community. Well Starbucks has expanded into many areas where very conservative gun owners that are not ashamed to display their guns in public and are not afraid of the mere sight of someone carrying a firearm. (What was it that Obama said about clinging to their guns or religion)?

Since Starbucks desire to be part of the "community" is in direct conflict with cities whose population "clings to guns or religion" will they close those stores? Or remain there as long as they make the almighty dollar?

Even in my home, which is very pro-2A, if a stranger enters with a shotgun and no explanation, he will likely find himself in a very unpleasant situation just about as soon as I can lay hands on some hardware.
I have a hard time imagining an ol' Montana cowboy pulling his Peacemaker out at the local McDonalds for a selfie or to twirl it for the other customers. I can't imagine any of my friends who OC on a daily basis doing that either. That kind of behavior is just plain idiocy.
The people in those pics are acting very irresponsibly and using potentially dangerous tools that are meant for serious defensive use as playthings in a public place. It's bad enough to act like that at home. In a public place, they're lucky they weren't escorted out by a SWAT team.

 

[Outlaw Man]

I think we should come up with some ways to educate those particular people with a clip on their shoulder as to how it hurts our cause (this being a fine example). We need them on our side, not working against us.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think Starbucks respects state law and their reference to "open carry" is a business decision in the sense that some people are uncomfortable with open carry of a firearm in urban areas.

I don't go to Starbucks often. In fact I visited one this week for the first time in a couple years. It was in a downtown environment and I wouldn't dream of open carrying there as a civilian.

 

[Kleanbore]

One of our distinguished members who is on the staff at another site reports that his daughter once worked in a Starbucks store and that from time to time, he visited her there.

He posed a rhetorical question about how people would expect him to react if a couple of people walked into the establishment carrying shotguns or rifles, or pulled their handguns after coming inside.

His comment was a little more subtle than might have been mine--something to the effect that he would not be likely to engage them in a discussion of the Second Amendment.

I like his choice of words better.

Some of those people are just plain lucky.

 

[coloradokevin]

I just saw the interview with the Starbucks' CEO today... I'm not happy with them trying to make their position more anti-gun. Their position of neutrality was enough, this "extra" step is totally unnecessary, and I doubt they were losing much business by the loud-mouthed boycotters who said that they wouldn't go to Starbucks until guns were banned there. The CEO came across as anti-gun to me in the interview, and even spoke of it as an issue of "values". But, in fairness, people who are on the pro-gun side really didn't help this issue with the open-carried AR-15's in Starbucks over the past few months. Obviously that only angers and encourages the anti-gun activists to work harder at this issue.

I currently go to Starbucks a few times each week. No more. (and, I'm an "authorized law enforcement officer" whom they wouldn't mind carrying there).

Here's the interview:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/18/news/companies/starbucks-guns/index.html?hpt=hp_t3


Oh, and my girlfriend, who only mildly likes guns (supports my habit in a BIG way, doesn't shoot much) said that she's now had her last Pumpkin Spice Latte (and she's a huge addict of that drink).

 

[riceboy72]

Starbucks is in the business to sell coffee, and to sell a multitude of craft style drinks in a comfortable environment to those who find favor with their products. I don't think in this environment their expectation was to be catapulted into the spotlight regarding gun rights, but alas, it happened. They're doing damage control at this point, and trying to maintain a position that will appease and quell as many people as they can. As the old adage shows, you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Case in point is this issue that Starbucks is now trying to ease into their business de jour. I'm fairly sure this pains them to present this to the masses, but alas, something had to give and they drew the necessary line. Why? Because it's their business and they make the rules.

I am, and have been, a Starbucks fan for well over fifteen years now. I will continue to get my coffee from them, and carry concealed like I've done for the better part of twenty years while I get my Americano. They are literally on every corner in downtown Seattle, and the surrounding suburbs have multiple Starbucks in each community. They do alot for Seattle, and are conscious of social issues and give back to the community. Their conscience in this issue was brought out and presented in the limelight, and they rolled with it the best they could. They employ thousands, and are known for taking care of their employees and utilizing fair labor standards. There's a reason they're a global icon, and they are here to stay.

In my mind, this wasn't a coffee bashing thread, or anything akin to it. It's just time to realize that they were tired of being in the middle of a tug of war between two teams who have tremendous pull one way or the other. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and Starbucks gets and understands this and they took a stand today. Like it or not, they're here to stay and so is their stance -- at least for now.

 

[22-rimfire]

Keep your firearms concealed at Starbucks and there won't be a problem based on what the CEO said. He appears to be objecting to using Starbucks as a political staging ground by people who open carry. So, as far as I'm concerned, NO CHANGE.

Funny... I had the pumpkin Spice Latte and I have no idea what most of coffee based drinks are there. The problem with Starbucks for me is they are too expensive.

 

[tarosean]

You also have to wonder, especially in light of the recent news, what a natural reaction would be to seeing this upon entering a business



If you didn't have nearby cover, not concealment, to move to, would it not be understandable to draw your CCW and engage this person. Just because he is smiling, doesn't lower the threat level

Yeah, I'd have a problem with that jackwagon too. Having a weapon over your shoulder or on your hip is one thing. But he has taken it to another level

 

[coloradokevin]

Okay, I've taken a breath and thought about this issue more since my last comment, and I'm probably going to need to redirect a bit of my anger...

I'm pretty much fully convinced that the idiots who decided to BRANDISH firearms in Starbucks stores are responsible for this new "opinion". It's one thing to support concealed carry or open carry, and it's an entirely different animal to start pulling your pistols out while you're drinking coffee, or walking in the door of a business (especially these days) with a semi-automatic rifle or a shotgun in your hands (or, any firearm for that matter). The local gun stores and shooting ranges don't even allow such behavior!

If the extremists and in-your-face types on our side of the fence don't get this message sooner rather than later, I think 2nd Amendment rights will only suffer from it.

The pictures contained in this thread really tell the story for me. And, I've seen plenty of other ones just like this. If we wanted to demonstrate support for Starbucks' neutrality on this issue in the past, we shouldn't have done so by walking around in their stores with guns in hand (though even 99.5% of the people around here probably wouldn't be inclined to do so).

Honestly, as an LEO who carries every single day, I think that's an extremely dangerous practice. If I'm ever sitting in a restaurant or coffee shop as someone walks through the door with an AR-15 in HAND, I doubt I'd be sitting in my chair by the time they made it through the door... it would be a move towards cover, and potentially drawing a firearm. That's just stupid, idiotic, pointless behavior, and it looks a whole lot more like a robbery in progress or active shooting than it does a 2nd Amendment statement!

 

[BSA1]

If I may interrupt the feeding frenzy for a moment. How many remember the bad boy image of motorcycle riders a couple of decades ago? The mere appearance of a group of bikers pulling up on their hogs wearing leather vests, tattoos and dark glasses sent people in a panic.

Contrast that to today. Bikers are likely to well paid business and professionals just out having fun and no one panics when they show up.

What changed their image? They dress the same , ride the same type of hogs, yet no mass panic.

 

[ViniferaVizslas]

Carrying on private property is a privilege granted by the owner. Thanks to a bunch of fools that privilege has been revoked. No one wants their business politicized and the idiotic self serving brandishing of firearms has ruined what was a very good thing for all of us.

Much like the open carry "event" in South Haven MI where some idiot discharged accidentally. All they publicized was their foolishness and incompetence.

 

[HOOfan_1]

unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Could they legally tell law enforcement not to carry either?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Honestly, as an LEO who carries every single day, I think that's an extremely dangerous practice. If I'm ever sitting in a restaurant or coffee shop as someone walks through the door with an AR-15 in HAND, I doubt I'd be sitting in my chair by the time they made it through the door... it would be a move towards cover, and potentially drawing a firearm. That's just stupid, idiotic, pointless behavior, and it looks a whole lot more like a robbery in progress or active shooting than it does a 2nd Amendment statement!

I'm not an LEO, but I do have a CHL and if I saw someone walk through the doors of an establishment with a rifle or shotgun in hand, I and my family are hitting the deck and I'm pulling my weapon. It's just idiocy.

I pretty much agree with everything in your last post Kevin.

 

[beatledog7]

BenEzra:

If I choose to OC it has nothing to do with exhibitionism. Frankly, I'm tired of being treated as a pariah on this site because I sometimes OC and make no bones about my thoughts on the matter. When I OC--and I suspect when most people OC--it's a simple matter of how difficult and inconvenient it is to conceal a firearm under some conditions. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm also sure those exceptions are usually the most vocal. But not this time.

Also, OCing absolutely does not make anyone a poor ambassador of the lawful gun owning community. I resent that statement, a lot.

Please open your mind and consider it could be that you OC poo-pooers are causing a divide in the community every bit as much as those who say we should bend to some additional but reasonable gun control laws and other such nonsense. You're parsing RKBA in exactly the same way as the so-called "Fudds" who say we don't need ARs so they can protect their bolt guns. I ask you respectfully to stop assuming that anyone who OCs is doing so to make some sort of extremist statement and is therefore an enemy of the community.

Warp:

I agree there is on the surface of this a property rights angle, but in this case I rationally infer that CCW is not being discouraged per se. Starbucks' leadership is simply asking us to be discreet, without saying it in so many words, thus to psuedo-appease the antis. The letter is very careful to indicate that a major issue is that some patrons view OCing generally and especially pro-2A rallies in a negative light, and that Starbucks doesn't want its stores to be treated as pro-2A meccas. Increased discretion on the part of gun owners, the letter implies, would at least make Starbucks come across as more or less neutral in the guns or no guns arena.

Firearms are not being banned from Starbucks. They're only asking to tone it down, primarily by not OCing or holding "events" in their stores.

 

[Agsalaska]

I dont blame them at all. All they want to do is pull themselves out of the debate. There are pictures all over the internet of guys with guns posing in Starbucks and gun grabbers using them as a centerpiece for protests. All the while they were just trying to sell coffee and respect local ordinances.

You better believe their will be open carry guys testing their patience in the coming days making themselves out as idiots and putting the managers in tough spots.

 

[beatledog7]

You better believe there [sic] will be open carry guys testing their patience in the coming days making themselves out as idiots and putting the managers in tough spots.

I do believe it, and I don't condone it. OC is one thing--blatant showmanship is another. I wouldn't mind if some rational, sane gun owners were to intervene in that sort of behavior: in a discrete manner, of course.

 

[Warp]

Could they legally tell law enforcement not to carry either?

If the LE personnel are not there on official business, yes, they can tell LE to disarm or leave.

Just because you are a cop that doesn't mean you can eat lunch or get coffee anywhere you please, regardless of the wishes of the property owner.

...reserve the right to refuse service...

But background checks, pre-employment screening/interviews, training, and department policy generally keeps sworn LE officers from doing some of the ridiculously stupid stuff we have seen regular gun carrying citizens do at Starbucks.

More importantly, perhaps, people don't tend to freak out or be concerned about the cop having a gun.