H&K 416 vs. other M16's

[Jeff White]

If I have time later tonight, I'll see if I can't dig up an armorer manual.

TM 9-1005-319-23&P doesn't say anything about excessive wear. The fact is, that nobody really knows the service life of a lot of arts because until recently, few organizations fired their weapons enough to start gathering any data at all. And like I said in my earlier post, records of rounds fired aren't kept on small arms.

The information in the SOPMOD slide show is largely anecdotal. There was a proposal for a round counter for small arms. I'm not sure if anyone ever adopted one.

Firearms are machines. Use them and parts wear. There hasn't been a big push to run out and replace bolts as a prophylactic measure nor has there been a big rush to acquire piston driven weapons except for certain applications (sub 14.5" barrels with suppressors) by certain units.

Jeff

 

[Jeremy2171]

rkh Quote:
I guess the excessive strain on the carbine gas systems is why I'm surrounded with M4s and broken bolts here in Iraq? (not) Havent seen one broken bolt in an M4 and I've been around these for a while now....

I think that speaks to the attentiveness of your unit's armorers. Wear issues associated with short gas tubes are well known, well documented, and not debated.

I doubt it....since you see I am the Unit Armorer. I'm at the Regimental level with several Battalions under my supervison......and we've had "no" M4 bolt failure issues. My personal M4 has had over 5k rounds that "I" put downrange...who knows how many before me.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I saw that notice too. The problem is, no one that I know of keeps 2408s on small arms. Most units would have no idea how many rounds were through a particular M4.

This is true, definitely. And, while I haven't seen many M4 bolt failures, several of those I have seen were weapons that supposedly had just been overhauled and refurbished. (To be fair, that may have been related to a bad batch of ammunition as an alternate theory, or may have been shoddy work by the company that did the overhauling. The exact issue was never sorted out.)

It's when you get into 10 inch barrels that you start having problems, although Crane seems to be happy with the MK 18.

Guys I know who were issued them in theater never had any problems with 10" barrel uppers, or at least I've never heard anything but praise of them from guys who carried them.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I doubt it....since you see I am the Unit Armorer. I'm at the Regimental level with several Battalions under my supervison......and we've had "no" M4 bolt failure issues. My personal M4 has had over 5k rounds that "I" put downrange...who knows how many before me.

I'd have to agree with Jeff White's suggestion that it's not just about the round count but how the rounds are put downrange. Much like wear and tear on the otherwise generally reliable M9 pistol, it's no accident that the most failures are seen by SOF units during training, when daily round counts can exceed what conventional units do in a year (during peacetime).

 

[rkh]

Intuitively, it makes sense that metal under stress will last longer if it is kept cooler rather than warmer. Steel just starts to lose rigidity when it gets hot.

As you know, an AR's bolt gets gets very hot, very fast. The same isn't true for my LW's bolt. I can dump a mag and pull the bolt and hold it in my hand without burning myself. I challenge anyone to try that with a DI gun.

Be that as it may, what really attracts me to the gas piston platform is ease of maintenance. Some people like--or at least don't mind--scraping carbon out of the interior of a rifle's receiver. I don't count myself among that number. It takes me about 1/5th as long to clean my GP AR as it does my DI. That, in and of itself, makes the system worthwhile.

Fantastic as they are, superior lubricant retention, parts longevity and ease of suppression barely register on my radar.


As to the HK's reported accuracy and breakage issues, I really can't comment. I have no experience with the rifle, but I will say that if true, they're HK-specific and not indicative of gas pistons in general. My LW has been an outstanding performer.

 

[inherentical]

As a Marine armorer, of the literally thousands upon thousands upon thousands of M16A2s I handled and repaired during my enlistment, not one of them had a problem due to the gas tube being dirty. Not one.

It's a great solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I've never seen a dirty "GAS TUBE" jam a gun either. Its the burn off of lubricant and carbon build up around the bolt that has caused the numerous problems I have seen in 16 years of using the AR15s. Even after a limited number of rounds the bolt will be hot, dirty, and DRY. A gas piston system will not exhibit that characteristic. That is in my book and improvement worth notice. Not such and improvement I think we should rush out to switch over, but I would LOVE to see us switch to a heavier caliber and while we are switching uppers, lets make a switch there too. I think it would give us a much tougher (read better ) weapon system to last us for many more years of service.

 

[woodycreek]

I guess time will tell, but HK's disdain for we civilians will likely see them in short supply at our local shops-o-fun....?

I was thinking about getting a 416 but after hearing just a few pros and the heavy price tag.........