the new(ish) H&K 416-what makes it so reliable?

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FRAUD is exactly what that is.
While it was not so much fraud as misdirection, I agree the test was rigged; but I very seriously doubt that they altered the "other competing design" in any way. The receiver opened up exactly where it should have (at least from a strength of materials point of understanding). :)
 
but I very seriously doubt that they altered the "other competing design" in any way.

Oh no, of course not! Of course the M4 blew up - no doubt about that. All guns will with a bore obstruction and a high power round. What is most certainly fraud is the strong implication (arguably a representation) that the 416 WON'T also blow up under the same conditions.

Fraud= communication of a representation, known false, with intent to deceive, for pecuniary gain.

The representation communicated is that the 416 can fire without harm with a bore obstruction of water. It's false. It's known by them to be false. The representation was made with an intent to deceive the watcher/would-be buyer, and it was done to sell guns (for pecuniary gain). That's fraud.
 
Well I for one know exactly why the 416's are so reliable.













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The Germans always make good stuff :neener:

TUCCIOHOLIC.jpg
 
mljdeckard said:
You are the one posting an AT article as if it reflects the views of the army.

Just because you say this doesn't make it so. Where, sir, did I either SAY or IMPLY that "Army Times magazine" reflected the view of the Army. I posted the link to the article as a REFERENCE to demonstrate I wasn't anally extracting my assertion as it appears other posters are. So, either man up with proof for YOUR accuastions against me or back down.

Lazuris said:
Jees guys. Just get a SCAR and end this debate.

I'm holding out for the Magpul Masada/Bushmaster ACR/Remington ACR. Can't buy that yet. You CAN buy the RugAR-15 though. Or the LWRC piston gun. Or the Bushmaster piston conversion. Or... the dozens of others on the market. SCAR's available. AR-180B, Robinson ACR, Robinson M96, etc.
 
I wasn't anally extracting my assertion as it appears other posters are.
I orally extracted my information from a friend and member of SF...he said that the 416 was a great improvement over the M4 (though he also said that he would prefer his AK due to the sound). :)
 
I orally extracted my information from a friend and member of SF...he said that the 416 was a great improvement over the M4 (though he also said that he would prefer his AK due to the sound).

One has a hard time living and working this close to Fort Bragg without interacting. Word on the street is only as good as the guy telling you. SF guys tend not to talk too much about what they do nor do I like repeating what they say....

SO, I tend to trust references. The HK416 is firmly entrenched in the SF community and the SCAR is inching its way into the SEAL portion of that community. Verdict is still out on the FN product but the HK416 has been slugging it out for a few years now. Adopted by a few countries, several agencies, and sales are going strong.
 
FMF said:
the most important change is designing the bolt around the gas piston system instead of a retrofit kit...this keeps the hot gases that normally cycle the bolt out of the chamber

Really? Could you explain to me how a piston keeps hot gases out of the chamber. That one puzzles me.

SHvar said:
Lets see, a whole different world cleaner all of the time, alot cooler temps, doesnt cook the oil off of its moving parts, barrel and chamber last longer, to mention a few.

Again, how does a gas piston operating system make a barrel and chamber last longer?

As for the Army dust tests, I'd be interested in seeing how a direct impingement AR would do with:

1. Hand assembled rifles like the ones the other manufacturers submitted for the test since they had no production line set up.
2. Gas port in ideal location - the gas port location for the M4 is a holdover from the XM177. How reliable would the other rifles be if we cut the barrel length in half without modifying the bolt, bolt carrier or gas system beyond playing with the port size?
3. Used new High Reliability Magazines (like the other rifles) instead of USGI magazines with green followers
4. Used a different bolt and barrel extension actually designed for a carbine, instead of using the original bolt designed for a 20" rifle and increasing the load on it 150%
 
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SF guys tend not to talk too much about what they do nor do I like repeating what they say....
Note the lack of clarification (a member of SF)...it shall remain that way for a reason...I would rather people doubt my sources that know my sources. ;)
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
As for the Army dust tests, I'd be interested in seeing how a direct impingement AR would do with:

1. Hand assembled rifles like the ones the other manufacturers submitted for the test since they had no production line set up.

Actually, HK416 and their Magazine were both in production at the time.

2. Gas port in ideal location - the gas port location for the M4 is a holdover from the XM177. How reliable would the other rifles be if we cut the barrel length in half without modifying the bolt, bolt carrier or gas system beyond playing with the port size?

If the port is in the wrong position, is the wrong size, or something is wrong with the gas tube, those are changes that you THINK they would have tried already with 20 different AR-15 manufacturers. I, for one, think they got it right for a 14.5" barrel.

3. Used new High Reliability Magazines (like the other rifles) instead of USGI magazines with green followers

If you read into the dust tests, they actually break down how many failures were magazine related. For the M4, that is 239 magazine related failures. Assuming that the HK magazine is 100% reliable (It's not), then that would still mean the M4 got stompped.

4. Used a different bolt and barrel extension actually designed for a carbine, instead of using the original bolt designed for a 20" rifle and increasing the load on it 150%

I don't believe that the stress on the barrel extension is any greater nor is the bolt being stressed any more. In fact, I would say that the carbine barrel extension would be subjected to roughly the same forces. Please flesh out this idea because I don't get how 60,000 PSI is any different from a carbine than it is from a rifle.
 
Actually, HK416 and their Magazine were both in production at the time.

The HK magazines were in production because they are a handoff from the SA80A2 program - although whether that was a benefit to the 416 is a fair question considering that TACOM and the Navy have both cancelled use of the HK magazine.

As for HK being "in production", my understanding is that neither FN nor HK had an actual production line set up. They were producing a limited number of weapons for SOCOM and test samples; but neither one was capable of fufilling large orders for rifles at the time of Dust Test III. Of course, that is just based on what I've read and there is certainly a lot of misinformation out there. If you have a reliable source you can share, I'd love to hear more.

If the port is in the wrong position, is the wrong size, or something is wrong with the gas tube, those are changes that you THINK they would have tried already with 20 different AR-15 manufacturers. I, for one, think they got it right for a 14.5" barrel.

Several different manufacturers have tried different positions than the standard M4 carbine and with good success; but those models don't get the kind of testing that the M4 does. Most of the upgrades in the M4 (heavier buffer, beefed up extractor, feed ramps, better mags) are really there to solve the problems inherent in a shorter gas system using parts designed around the pressures in a 20" rifle.

If you read into the dust tests, they actually break down how many failures were magazine related. For the M4, that is 239 magazine related failures. Assuming that the HK magazine is 100% reliable (It's not), then that would still mean the M4 got stompped.

Yes; but the HK had 9 magazine stoppages, the FN had 19 and the XM8 had 18. I think we can both agree that a difference between 239 and 9-19 indicates a bit of a problem that has nothing to do with the rifle.

Reduce the magazine stoppages to levels typical for the other rifles and we are already 1/3 of the way towards a DI rifle that performs as well in that test as the most modern gas piston designs - even before we do crazy stuff like say, building a DI rifle designed around a 14.5" system instead of making do with a 20" system cut down to 14.5".

I don't believe that the stress on the barrel extension is any greater nor is the bolt being stressed any more. In fact, I would say that the carbine barrel extension would be subjected to roughly the same forces.

The barrel extension isn't under any greater force; but if you change the design of the bolt, you must also change the design of the barrel extension. The bolt IS under much greater forces, check out the Rifle Forum Reading Library discussion of midlengths for more details and links to the technical data. The problem is that the bolt in use was built for a 20" rifle - and like many well-engineered items, it is designed to withstand stresses far greater than what it would commonly encounter in a 20" rifle. However, with a carbine, the gas reaches the bolt faster (shorter travel distance + higher port pressures) and unlocks the bolt earlier in the cycle than with a 20". This puts much higher stresses on the bolt and reduces the operational life span of the bolt.

Even a simple thing like radiusing where the bolt lugs meet the bolt and redesigning the extractor would be a big benefit; but logistically, you have to support two different kinds of barrel extensions and bolts, so the Army hasn't warmed up to that solution. Take a look at the early 2001 SOPMOD Improved Bolt project or the KAC E3 bolt (or any of the other bolts developed in response to that) and you'll see some of the problems we have created by using a bolt designed for a 20" rifle in everything from 14.5" carbines to 10.5" CQB type M16s.
 
Can you just imagine the poor gas piston after a US GI gets done "cleaning his rifle".
 
However, with a carbine, the gas reaches the bolt faster (shorter travel distance + higher port pressures) and unlocks the bolt earlier in the cycle than with a 20". This puts much higher stresses on the bolt and reduces the operational life span of the bolt.

You are correct, the bolt unlocks sooner... and that produces greater forces on the extractor and cam pin hole. The greater force on the extractor MIGHT cause the extractor pin hole and the extractor pin, but extractors are the primary victim here. Still, no greater stress on the bolt.

Even a simple thing like radiusing where the bolt lugs meet the bolt and redesigning the extractor would be a big benefit; but logistically, you have to support two different kinds of barrel extensions and bolts, so the Army hasn't warmed up to that solution. Take a look at the early 2001 SOPMOD Improved Bolt project or the KAC E3 bolt (or any of the other bolts developed in response to that) and you'll see some of the problems we have created by using a bolt designed for a 20" rifle in everything from 14.5" carbines to 10.5" CQB type M16s.

The easiest thing to do would be to relieve the bearing surface of the lug opposite the extractor. Bolt life immediately improves. We've been down this road before, have you heard my bolt improvement lecture already?

The Real Mags said:
Can you just imagine the poor gas piston after a US GI gets done "cleaning his rifle".

I don't have to imagine. I've seen it. HK416 has been in widespread service for five years and G36 for well over a decade. They use the same gas system. I've got experience with the G36, but not that much. Couple-hundred rounds of Wolf and the piston looked like the AR-15 piston does after one shot.
 
You are correct, the bolt unlocks sooner... and that produces greater forces on the extractor and cam pin hole. The greater force on the extractor MIGHT cause the extractor pin hole and the extractor pin, but extractors are the primary victim here. Still, no greater stress on the bolt

Look, if you just want to talk at me, we can end the conversation right now. If you want to have a discussion, then it would help to listen to me and actually read some of the stuff I suggest before you dismiss what I wrote without even one word about all the data I've asked you to read showing that bolts do in fact have higher stresses in a carbine.

I won't even ask how you can agree that the bolt unlocks sooner (while forces acting on the bolt are higher) and that there are greater forces on the extractor (part of bolt) and cam pin hole (big hole in the middle of the bolt); but no greater forces on the bolt or bolt lugs.

However, just in case you did read all of that and disagree but somehow chose not to explain why you found the data unconvincing here is some more on that subject:

Failure Analysis of the M16 Rifle Bolt
V.Y. Yu*, J.G. Kohl, R.A. Crapanzano, M.W. Davies, A.G. Elam, M.K. Veach (Have to find it online; but if you can't I have a zipped copy in Word).

Brief discussion of 2001 SOPMOD Improved Bolt Project
Extractor lift in M16 family of weapons

In fact, while I don't have the time to go back through the different NDIA Small Arms Symposiums from 2000-2009 and find every discussion of problems with greater stresses on M4 bolts, you can find all of those conference presentations archived here:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/index.html

If nothing else, reading those conference reports is a great education on the M4 system and small arms in general. It will take awhile though, it usually takes me a day or two to process the annual presentations and you've got nine years to catch up on.

All of which goes back to the original point, which is that using a botl designed for a 14.5" AR instead of recycling the 20" bolt would improve the reliability of the rifle.

HK416 has been in widespread service for five years

Uhhh widespread service? How are you defining that? It has been in limited service with select units within the Army (and not even all of them) and was adopted by the Norwegian Army in 2007 (where it has had a lot of teething issues common to any new rifle).
 
I won't even ask how you can agree that the bolt unlocks sooner (while forces acting on the bolt are higher) and that there are greater forces on the extractor (part of bolt) and cam pin hole (big hole in the middle of the bolt); but no greater forces on the bolt or bolt lugs.

The bolt lugs get much of the 60,000-odd PSI from the cartridge firing. About 50% of that is spread between just two lugs, the weakest lugs by chance and those adjacent to the extractor. This is from memory, BTW, but I agree a redesigned bolt would be good. How about the redesigned one on the M96 or the G36?

Check your PM.
 
I don't have to imagine. I've seen it. HK416 has been in widespread service for five years and G36 for well over a decade. They use the same gas system. I've got experience with the G36, but not that much. Couple-hundred rounds of Wolf and the piston looked like the AR-15 piston does after one shot.
I was actually poking fun at how us military guys are hard on everything I can certainly forsee troops bending their gas piston rod.
 
I would say that the SF that have tested and used the 416 (as well as the M4) would be a pretty good test. They chose the HK design almost exclusively...You Fail.

Not sure which SF Group you served in, but the one I spent five years in, the team guys weren't terrifically impressed with the HK416s they got issued. By the time I ETS'ed several team sergeants and senior 18Bs on teams were talking about switching back to M4s due to accuracy problems with the 416s . . .

Mileage on Counterstrike or Ghost Recon may vary . . .
 
Not sure which SF Group you served in, but the one I spent five years in, the team guys weren't terrifically impressed with the HK416s they got issued. By the time I ETS'ed several team sergeants and senior 18Bs on teams were talking about switching back to M4s due to accuracy problems with the 416s . . .

Not buying it.
 
Actually, HK416 and their Magazine were both in production at the time.

I think this is correct.

There is also a rumor floating around that the HK416 numbers in the tests were skewed because one in ten of the rifles provided was a jam-o-matic lemon that had the majority of the 416 failures observed. Don't know if this is true or not, but it would (hopefully) indicate HK didn't cherry pick their weapons for the test if it is.

A 10% crap rate in the test also says some ugly things about HK's standards these days, which may be in keeping with the account in the last couple years of a major metro SWAT team dropping the HK416 after the 70 or so 416s they ordered were about 1/3 to 1/2 lemons that wouldn't run properly, and then had to deal with HK getting attitude with them on the matter. (Story is posted on the 10-8 Forum, which doesn't have anonymous screen names, for anyone interested in it . . .)
 
Are the 416s assembled on American soil? If not they won't get a major contract with Uncle Sam.
 
I'm of the opinion that virtually ALL of the stories out there about the HK416 failing to perform are at the very least GROSSLY exaggerated and more than likely fabrications. The world is against HK. Be it Colt, FN, Glock, Steyr, or whoever, everybody has a bone to pick with HK.

The HK haters don't play fair and take EVERY chance to take a pot-shot at HK. The reality is that HK's are highly refined and reliable weapons. Save for a few lemons over the years... the HK4 and VP70 come to mind, virtually EVERYTHING produced by HK just dripped of quality. Unless something has changed in the last two or three years, they are STILL made from the best stuff on earth and prove it every day.

The burden of proof for the HK-Haters club is much higher for me. I can remember back in the 80's when the exchange rates started skewing really bad and everything HK doubled in price, you'd get all manner of people crying about how overpriced HK was and how they were just charging for the name.

BS. Anything from Germany costs more. That's what Socialism will get you. That doesn't mean they don't produce good stuff, only that with every purchase, you give some happy Jerry better medical care and clean streets! Germany thanks you!
 
Badger I agree with what you said, in fact somewhere I read that the enviro-friendly ammo the army in Norway was making the soldiers sick, I don't know if it was connected at all with the malfunctions or not.
 
Are the 416s assembled on American soil? If not they won't get a major contract with Uncle Sam.

HK is still working on a US manufacturing capability, which will supposedly bring a civilian legal version of the 416 with it (on a proprietary lower).

I'm of the opinion that virtually ALL of the stories out there about the HK416 failing to perform are at the very least GROSSLY exaggerated and more than likely fabrications.

Whatever.

The ones issued to our team guys had trouble holding 4 MOA with green tip ammo, and consistently shot groups twice as large as a stock M4A1 with whatever ammunition was run through them. They're combat-accurate guns for close range use, but certainly nothing magical to write home about, and were considered a possible liability by the SF NCOs I mentioned above for deployment in Afghanistan where longer shots might present themselves and the HK super-gun might come up short. We never had reliability issues, but other users have, and that's documented.

My take on the 416 is about like my take on the MP5 -- nice enough gun, has some major flaws to go with its pluses. I'd feel well armed with an MP5 or a 416, but HK and their products aren't anything special compared to other major manufacturers and their products (like, say, FN). HK fanboys tend to be from the video game and airsoft community, people with actual hands on experience mostly have more balanced outlooks (+/- some of those whose hands on experience involved huge outlays of their own income).
 
We never had reliability issues, but other users have, and that's documented.

Still not buying it. WHERE!? You're denegrating those who prefer HK as video game junkies? Claiming Special Forces background? I claim neither. Just tryin to state the facts and I'm calling BS on this unless you can demonstrate something in writing. Head-to-head, HK beat Colt, pure and simple. I'd be willing to bet large sums of money on any other head-to-head competition where the Army didn't try to rig it like they were allowed to with the first Dust test.

major metro SWAT team dropping the HK416 after the 70 or so 416s they ordered were about 1/3 to 1/2 lemons that wouldn't run properly

Yeah, prove it.

Mileage on Counterstrike or Ghost Recon may vary . . .
HK fanboys tend to be from the video game and airsoft community

What, that's two times you've suggested people who disagree with you are gamers and fanboys? Try some substance. News articles, statistics, test results, etc. Anecdotes, suggestions you've 'been there', and veiled personal attacks ain't cutting it and I ain't buying it.
 
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