the new(ish) H&K 416-what makes it so reliable?

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Not sure which SF Group you served in, but the one I spent five years in, the team guys weren't terrifically impressed with the HK416s they got issued. By the time I ETS'ed several team sergeants and senior 18Bs on teams were talking about switching back to M4s due to accuracy problems with the 416s . . .

Mileage on Counterstrike or Ghost Recon may vary . . .
Where did I say that I served in SF? And then you infer that I take my references from video games... :confused: I stated facts only (that the 416 was preferred over the M4...and that the AK was preferred over both, by that individual and most of his team), I am NOT an HK fanboy, have never played airsoft, scarcely play any video game, and own none of their rifles (though I do own a HK pistol), and haven't a clue what any of this has to do with anything.
 
You're denegrating those who prefer HK as video game junkies?

In my experience, they tend to be. Your mileage may vary.

Claiming Special Forces background?

Five years in an SF unit as a support guy, almost all of that working directly for the Group SFAUC and SOTIC committees. Run a search on my posts, you'll see I'm not at all about claiming to be anything I'm not -- having parenthetically added "(as a support guy, not a door kicker)" in dozens of threads, I do think I forgot to do so in this one. Oops.

Head-to-head, HK beat Colt, pure and simple. I'd be willing to bet large sums of money on any other head-to-head competition where the Army didn't try to rig it like they were allowed to with the first Dust test.

I don't recall mentioning the dust tests.

Yeah, prove it.

Check the 10-8 Forums. As I noted, people over there don't post behind screen names, all users register and post under their real names. Email the guy who had the problem if you want more details. The thread includes pictures of the failures they were having, etc.

(Note: My bad. They had 25 crap rifles, not 70. That's what I get for working off memory, I suppose.)

The initial post in the thread:

My SWAT team has recently received 25 new 416s as a test group with the intent of purchasing over 300 more in semi auto as patrol rifles in the near future. We are having serious feed issues with the rifles with ball and frangible ammo. The rounds are hanging up on the feed ramps instead of sliding in. We are using HK mags and colt mags with the same result. The same ammo works like a charm in our M-4s. We’ve swapped uppers and lowers with M-4s and the HK uppers are the problem. From my experience it seems that the feed ramps are rougher than the M-4’s

We’ve contacted HK and they said they were sending out a tech….two weeks ago. So far a rep from HK is a no show and now they refuse to return telephone calls. I understand 300 rifles to a company like HK is not that big a deal. At this point we are a step away from testing other rifles. I’ve carried their firearms for many years and have never had a negative thing to say about them. It is possible that they have a bad batch of parts. Has anyone else had consistent feed problems with a 416? Our issue is not limited to 1 or 2 guns we have about 10 of them with the same problem.

Solution appears to have been replacing the uppers or barrels with earlier production (2005 instead of 2007). Not real impressive QC, whatever you might want to think or pretend.

Anecdotes, suggestions you've 'been there', and veiled personal attacks ain't cutting it and I ain't buying it.

Once again -- Whatever. The 416 is a decent, but not superb product -- in my experience. You may have hundreds of hours on the gun and know it inside and out in ways I don't, but what I've seen with them doesn't live up to the hype.

I stated facts only (that the 416 was preferred over the M4...and that the AK was preferred over both, by that individual and most of his team), I am NOT an HK fanboy, have never played airsoft, scarcely play any video game, and own none of their rifles (though I do own a HK pistol), and haven't a clue what any of this has to do with anything.

I'm inclined to call BS. I've never met anyone in SF or the other SOF units I've worked with who'd trade an M4 for an AK. 416 I can see, depending on what they're doing with them, and if HK has tightened up their barrels since their early production runs, but the AK . . . nope.

Just out of curiousity, without asking the actual team number of your buddy, what are the first couple digits -- that's anonymous enough that no one could trace it back to any particular person . . .
 
Once again -- Whatever. The 416 is a decent, but not superb product -- in my experience. You may have hundreds of hours on the gun and know it inside and out in ways I don't, but what I've seen with them doesn't live up to the hype.

I'd still call what you posted here an anecdote. Read through the entire thread and the guy kept talking about frangible ammo and stuff that won't feed in his M4. They're runnin all kinds of 'tacticool' ammo through it and getting problems with a few guns. HK was scratchin their heads, sure, because nobody had ever seen it. I've also never heard of 10-8 nor do I think that it makes a difference if one uses their real name. Mine's Lance Clinton. Not really, but how are you supposed to know?

I would say that the HK416, in my experience, is a superb gun with a few flaws traceable directly to the parent design. My experience with the G36 has been nothin but favorable, to the point that I am sold, hook line and sinker. Would have liked to have seen the excellent M8 get adopted, but the Army hates progress. Last great gun they adopted was the Garand and they took from 1921 to 1936 to do that. Even then, it was a balky gas-trap gun. At least back then, they knew it was bad and fixed it.
 
How does a piston AR barrel and chamber outlast a direct impingement barrel and chamber? Simple, the piston AR transfers alot less heat, fouling, exhaust gases, carbon, to the barrel and chamber, therefore the these parts have been proven to last longer. In fact in testing among gas piston AR type rifle manufacturers the barrels average two or more times the service life. Also the H&K416 has the advantage that POF uses, cold hammer forged barrels which have twice the service life of button forged barrels.
Lets try a test, we both fire 1000 rounds as fast as possible through a gas piston AR and a direct inpingement model manufactured equally in all other aspects. Immediately after the last round fired we both open the upper reciever and pull the bolt carrier with bare hands and examine it, I guarrantee the DI model will be bone dry, hot enough to give you 3rd degree burns and then some, dirtier than 20 piston ARs fired the same way combined, and the barrel/chamber specs will be further worn than any equally made piston model.
I can say with personal experience that after firing over 200 rounds in a day at the range a few times now, with a gas piston M-4 that the rifle was cleaner in all aspects than any direct impingement model is after only 2-3 rounds fired. I can say with experience that the bolt, carrier, reciever, barrel, etc are much cooler than a DI model after only a few rounds fired also. I can say with experience that after over 200 rounds fired on a few occasions that the moving parts of that gas piston rifle are still covered with the same coat of oil I put there beforehand. Anyone who knows anything about moving parts in a any machine is that it requires lubrication to prevent breakdown, to prevent failure, to prevent excessive wear.
I have nothing against DI rifles, I trusted my life on the reliability of them on several occasions without failure, but I did my part by religiously maintaining those DI rifles.
If offered the choice of a gas piston rifle or DI to go into combat, it would be a tough choice because of minute differences in the 2 rifles advantages and disadvantages. With equal amounts of training, on both, and oportunity to explore the limits of each, Id probably choose the piston rifle, but I have far more time and training with the DI rifle to its favor right now. I am however getting used to the differences with the piston rifle and adapting to its quirks.
I can also say that the extension tube is showing no more wear after hundreds of rounds fired with the gas piston upper than with the DI upper.
 
There she is. Several hundreds rds in the time Ive had her and waiting for the next chance to burn off more.

Picture220.jpg

My wife even got time behind the trigger with this one, for the first time in fact last weekend.
She likes it!!!
50 yds open sights, she even bump fired while standing later on, that brought a smile to her face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9mCekXPlc
 
STEP BACK, TAKE A DEEP BREATH, EXHALE.....

To sum it up:

The test video was if not total B.S. very edited, agreed?

HK does make very trusted and reliable weapons, agreed?

The AR platform is a very trusted and reliable weapon, agreed?

Just because you read it, saw it, or heard it, does not make it true, agreed?

Not everyone is truthful about their knowledge and experience, agreed?

Some people have way too much spare time on their hands, agreed?

Doctors may need to prescribe more vallium, xanax, lithium, agreed?

And lastly we all know that just as in the case of the M-1 Garand and the M-14, HK is just trying to improve upon and perfect near perfection, Oh did I say that out loud?

:neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:


This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA
 
SHvar said:
How does a piston AR barrel and chamber outlast a direct impingement barrel and chamber? Simple, the piston AR transfers alot less heat, fouling, exhaust gases, carbon, to the barrel and chamber, therefore the these parts have been proven to last longer.

So, by what magic does the gas system in a rifle change the amount of heat, fouling and exhaust gases in the barrel and chamber of a rifle? I've seen you and FMF claim that; but nobody seems to be able to explain the magical process by which a 62gr cartridge at 55,000psi somehow transfers less heat and energy to the barrel and chamber because of the operating system being used. This is a totally new theory to me, so I am interested in learning more about it.

In fact in testing among gas piston AR type rifle manufacturers the barrels average two or more times the service life. Also the H&K416 has the advantage that POF uses, cold hammer forged barrels which have twice the service life of button forged barrels.

Hmmm... let's see. Cold-hammer forged barrels have twice the service life of button forged barrels and gas piston ARs using cold-hammer forged barrels have shown twice the service life. Do you see any flaws in this reasoning? Is there perhaps some other variable than the gas system that might explain the difference in barrel life?

Here is a hint - the Knight's 10.5" AR using a modern cold-hammer forged barrel shows a barrel life of approximately 18,000-20,000 rounds. That is roughly two to three times the barrel life of most other 10.5" ARs (due to wear in the throat only), yet the Knight's 10.5" is a direct impingement AR, not a gas piston.

Lets try a test, we both fire 1000 rounds as fast as possible through a gas piston AR and a direct inpingement model manufactured equally in all other aspects.

Both rifles would have the barrel fail around 600 rounds depending on the length of the barrel used in the test. The only question relating to operating system would be whether the gas piston bound up as the barrel drooped from heat or whether the gas tube blew before the barrel could burst (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't).

Immediately after the last round fired we both open the upper reciever and pull the bolt carrier with bare hands and examine it

Again, what does examining the bolt carrier tell us about the heat in the barrel and chamber of the rifle? You do know where the barrel and chamber is, correct? How is it that the barrel and chamber get exposed to less heat in a piston rifle? Could you please explain for me the exact process by which this happens?
 
So, by what magic does the gas system in a rifle change the amount of heat, fouling and exhaust gases in the barrel and chamber of a rifle?
Hmmmm, that would have to be the bolt not the barrel and chamber. :)
 
Immediately after the last round fired we both open the upper reciever and pull the bolt carrier with bare hands and examine it

Again, what does examining the bolt carrier tell us about the heat in the barrel and chamber of the rifle? You do know where the barrel and chamber is, correct? How is it that the barrel and chamber get exposed to less heat in a piston rifle? Could you please explain for me the exact process by which this happens?

I'm pretty sure he meant that you cannot hold the bolt carrier in your bare hands. I tried to make that point earlier. In reality, a Piston AR isn't going to perform much better than a DI AR in any arena as was said before because it ain't going full-auto. The bolt carrier will cool quick enough to keep everything safe and sound. 900rpm mag dumps, however, will heat the gun pretty well. Unless you're bump-firing like a true mall ninja, the bolt and barrel will take rapid fire till the cows come home. I believe that a functional cyclic rate of 100-300rpm that is possible with semi-auto is not sufficient to significantly damage the bolt, barrel, or gas system.

Please test this with YOUR AR and post the results!!! :neener:
 
"Immediately after the last round fired we both open the upper reciever and pull the bolt carrier with bare hands and examine it"

"Again, what does examining the bolt carrier tell us about the heat in the barrel and chamber of the rifle? You do know where the barrel and chamber is, correct? How is it that the barrel and chamber get exposed to less heat in a piston rifle? Could you please explain for me the exact process by which this happens? "

Wow, you are clueless.

Aside from that I can measure the temperature in the chamber with an infared thermometer very easily, Ill bet the chamber and barrel in the gas piston rifle is a noticeable amount cooler.


"Both rifles would have the barrel fail around 600 rounds depending on the length of the barrel used in the test. The only question relating to operating system would be whether the gas piston bound up as the barrel drooped from heat or whether the gas tube blew before the barrel could burst (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)."

What world do you live it? Any decent made AR will fire way beyond 600 rds as fast as you can load the mags and drop them without the barrel having drooping. What AR are you having fail that easy?
I was one of 3 who were dumping mags on a range that 12 others were loading, we had to dispose of the rounds before leaving for the day (no, the rounds werent paid for by us either). There were 3000 rds left, thats 1000 each, it wasnt the first time that happened either. I dont know where a few people get these rumors about good AR type rifles melting their barrels under hard usage. keep in mind the rifles we were firing were DI.
I saw an anniversary model DPMS fire 10,000 rds between mag changes and oil added to keep it wet, guess what the barrel never failed, it didnt droop.
So, next excuse?
The piston rifle does not have the DI system cycling hot exhaust gases in its reciever, and above its chamber, therefore the level of heat exposed to the chamber and barrel are much lower. Try it for yourself. In fact the exhaust gases only travel around 2 inches or less in a gas piston rifle above the port in the barrel, therefore 3/4 of the heat, carbon, exhaust, etc are vented directly in front of the front sight area in a spray.
See I have a gas piston rifle, therefore I know from my own experience how clean they are (200 rds and cleaner than a DI rifle after 3 rds), how cool they are (after firing a few mags straight, the bolt carrier is cooler than outside temps around me), after firing 200 rds in a short time the carrier and bolt are clean, cool, and wet with oil yet.
In fact I can do a spotless cleaning job on my gas piston rifle after 200 plus rds in a short time, almost every bit of cleaning will be the barrel, the rest requires a quick wipe and reassembly. But for me part of the fun of firing it is cleaning it, a habit I guess, its relaxing.
 
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the tenor of this conversation has dropped below acceptable levels and warnings have been served.

feel free to start a new thread without the insults


What world do you live it? Any decent made AR will fire way beyond 600 rds as fast as you can load the mags and drop them without the barrel having drooping. What AR are you having fail that easy?

fwiw, from the notes I took in a carbine diagnostics class, testing at colt showed exactly that behavior around the 500-600 rnd mark.
 
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