h&k Mark 23 - .45 ACP

[Correia]

Because I haven't shot one, does that mean I can't at all know of what I am talking because all the reviews and everyone I know who owns one can't possibly be accurate sources on which to base an opinion?

Yes.

Because anybody that's been on online gun forums for any amount of time knows what reviews and sources you're reading, and most of them are as uninformed as you are. It is a painful circle of internet myths born over and over until they become truth in the minds of the people who are quoting each other, but seldom shoot guns.

So, when I go shoot this thing, does that magically make me know everything about the Mk23 and suddenly I'll realize that everyone who owns one and thinks highly of it is full of poo?

You could also tell us that the Ford Aerostar is the finest drag racing machine ever built because you drove it around a parking lot once. Still wouldn't win you very many trophies.

I've actually never been a huge fan of any HK trigger. I wouldn't call it garbage, but certainly not ideal either.

Name a $2000 gun that has a worse trigger... Okay, name a $1000 one... Allright, name one that isn't also made by HK.

What good does a steel grip do?

I don't know, I carry an STI. Best of both worlds.

Nice logic for living in the stone ages.

Hmmm... Anybody want to care to guess how many of those stone age guns are riding in military holsters compared to Mk23s? How did HK do with that new Marine contract?

Just because something did the job in its time means we shouldn't strive to build bigger, better, meaner, badder, and more capable?

1. Bigger. YES
2. Better. meh.
3. Meaner. I don't know, I'm not mean, but I did hurt someone's feelings once.
4. Badder. YES, (but mostly on customer service)
5. Capable... I don't know, are you talking about the Mk23, or the absurd giant flashlight/laser LEM thingy that is the only thing that will fit on its non-standard rail system?

Good for you. Then I encourage you to own/operate the handgun that best fits your needs - clearly not a Mk23.

Unless your job is rising out of the ocean and killing terrorists with piano wire, it probably doesn't suit your needs either. But damn if it doesn't give you some cool bragging rights on the internet!

and I never said it is the best thing ever. I did say it was supreme in certain areas, but I also recognized that it comes with other limitations.

You came onto a forum of absolute gun fanatics who shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds a year, a forum filled with zealots, instructors, cops, soldiers, collectors, and competitors, and told everyone that a gun you never actually shot was "supreme in some areas" because you read it in a book or a magainze.

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but some of us here get paid to write those type articles in those same magazines.

I'm not tryng to be a jerk here, but nothing in the world gets my goat more than someone with 2nd or 3rd hand opinuendo declaring the absolute truth to a bunch of 1st handers. I don't go on a NASCAR forum and tell them how to drive fast in a circle, and if I did, I could probably expect to get ribbed for it.

Although decently funny and probably a fun guy to hang out with at the bar, your aggressive whine-fest really diminishes the weight people are going to put into your opinion.

I think I'll get by.

AND we can objectively give credit to each pistol where it deserves because we don't have to substantiate our ego by slamming what we can't have.

You really have NO idea how many times I've heard some variation on that one. I'm not kidding, but probably about a thousand times. That is not hyperbole. For whatever reason, people who've drank the HKoolaid always assume that first.

My issue isn't neccesarily with the Mk23, though it is an overpriced, lousy triggered, brick of an ergonomic nightmare, my issue is with hype and conclusions based on hype.

but you seem to only want to acknowledge some of what is said so you can have verbal diarrhea (metaphorically speaking) and try to be the wise guy.

Actually, it wouldn't be verbal. I get paid for written diarrhea. I actually type faster than I talk.

And let me ask, since you apparently don't own a Mark 23,

Of course not. I actually shoot my guns.

why are you soooo concerned with the price tag?

Because for many years I made my living by selling guns to people and doing firearms instruction. My personal philosophy was to always try and fit the best possible gun to the person. As a professional instructor I found that one of the most difficult things in the world was to overcome student's preconceived notions that were not based in reality, but rather on hype and nonsense.

People who don't shoot, but pontificate endlessly based on Ian Hogg books and Call of Duty were the bane of my existence. Anything addressed as "supreme" because of somebody else's opinion gets my goat.

I still transferred a lot of Mk23s. 95% of the time, the purchaser was a blowhard who talked about how awesome his gun was, but I knew for a fact couldn't hit a pie plate at ten yards. The other 5% were collectors or people like me who would occasionally pick up a weird gun to screw around with it and then sell it.

Why get on here and rant?

Because my wife made me take a couple of days off of writing novels.

Nobody has forced you to own one,

And if they did, I would turn around and sell it on Gunbroker to some other rich guy to keep in his safe, and I'd buy two other really good guns.

yet you want to get on here and insult the people who own them or even admire them.

I haven't insulted you. I insulted your gun. You've made the common fanboy mistake of connecting your self esteem to your hardware.

I think that's interesting. You should call your mom.

Why? She doesn't like HK either...

 

[bondmid003]

If you want to be Solid Snake, I'd go with the Mk 23. If you AREN'T planning on saving the world anytime soon the USP .45 Tactical should do you just fine

By the by, I've got the USP .40 and I love it

 

[mljdeckard]

Come to think of it, if I was going to spend $2000 on a gun that big, I would get the STI Perfect Ten. Higher capacity, better trigger, and power to justify the size.

 

[FantasticChadwick]

You could also tell us that the Ford Aerostar is the finest drag racing machine ever built because you drove it around a parking lot once. Still wouldn't win you very many trophies.

Everyone already knows the Ford Aerostar is the finest drag racing machine ever built.

 

[18DAI]

Garbage trigger? You must be thinking of the M&P.

"HK hype"? Is that like Kimber hype?

 

[Correia]

They are similar, but the HK hype tends to run more toward that GSG9/Tom Clancy game hype, while Kimber hype is the classic/pretty/oh it is so awesome/sure some parts break off/why does the one that is exactly the same as the $800 one, but has different grips and checkering that looks like a plucked chicken cost $400 more? - type hype.

Oh, I'm an equal opportunity ranter.

 

[TurboFC3S]

The Mark 23 not being your cup of tea, no problem ... but going off on it like that is just plain ridiculous. Sure it's huge, sure it's expensive, but that thing is built to survive the apocalypse and still print tight groups afterward. I'm a 1911 guy myself, but my USP Expert has a spot in my bug-out-bag. If I owned a Mark 23 instead of the Expert, it'd be there in it's place. Also in that bag is a Springfield TRP, but I'd count on the HK first. Reliability is something that never even enters your mentality with the HK, same with durability. I have plenty of reliable 1911's, but I always run them clean and well lubed ... I couldn't say I have the same level of confidence in them if they had to be ran dirty, but I wouldn't worry one bit with the HK.

My Expert has the Match Trigger that's been worked by Gray Guns, and it's very nice ... still not 1911 nice but good enough that it has no negative impact on my accuracy. The Mark 23 trigger out of the box isn't bad in SA, DA is long and heavy but who cares, they can be transported cocked and locked too. If cost, size, and trigger (and the wanna be commandos who own them) are your complaints, then you miss the point or have a chip on your shoulder. For civilians the point is a preparedness plan, if you have a Mark 23 then your SHTF handgun slot is taken care of. Pair it with a EBR of your choice and you're set, but unlike having a 1911 in your SHTF kit, you can just have the gun and not have to worry about also having tools and a bag of spare parts.

 

[LancerMW]

i think the G21 would outdo the Mark23(none of this mk23 we aint the military here) for bugout purpose

 

[TurboFC3S]

Of course we ain't the military, we're militia

Have you ever seen a G21 next to a Mark 23? Sure the G21 will work just fine, it's a great combat pistol ... but to say it would outdo the Mark 23?!? Only in the sense that you could buy 3 of them for the same price.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Have you ever seen a G21 next to a Mark 23?

If we are basing this on size/cool factor...

I win.

 

[Correia]

So, Deer Hunter, do androids dream of electric sheep?

 

[TurboFC3S]

The size of the Mark23 follows the engineering. There simply isn't any other handgun engineered to the same standards. Then of course it's up to the end-user if the trade offs are worth it ... for me it's not, but it's mainly price that has kept me from buying one. If they were at or under $1000, I'd have one.

Bashing the gun is just silly. Bashing some of the dirt shooters that buy one because they heard it instantly transforms you into an Army Ranger, that I can understand

 

[bondmid003]

Deer Hunter, where did you get the gun from Blade Runner? Does it function or is it just a prop?

 

[Deer Hunter]

I got it from google.

No, that is not my gun. The actual gun sold for lots and lots of money and actually did work if I remember correctly.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The size of the Mark23 follows the engineering. There simply isn't any other handgun engineered to the same standards.

Size follows from the design process, which consisted of taking some good ideas from actual end users (sometimes conflicting ones) and then feeding them through hundreds of power point slides produced by Former-Action-Guys and Never-Been-Action-Guys, who added on their own fanciful ideas to justify tossing the coin at something that really didn't do anything much better than what was already in guys' holsters. The end result was a desire for a pistol that not only sliced, but diced, and even julienned.

Then said requirements were handed to a bunch of German mechanical engineers whose real world experience was non-existent but who dutifully engineered a mini-carbine to fulfill conflicting end user requirements and "I don't really know much about pistols, but if I let on my OER will suffer" fantasies from staff officers.

Can't really fault HK for the end result, to be fair -- it was a case of garbage in, garbage out. But the end result was not a pistol that caught on with anyone who gunfights for a living, pure and simple. What was supposed to be a revolutionary new pistol that would make the SOCOM operator a better warfighter ended up being a kind of forgotten limited purchase that mostly gathers dust in arms rooms.

 

[pale horse]

This thread has lost the wind in its sails. I would like to rectify this by giving a Soldier/Marines input. I am a unit qualified armory and have served in peace time as a Marine and war time as a Soldier.

So some of you may not know, but the military provides firearm companies with a set of guidelines for a piece of equipment and several companies answer and then the test begin. Upon the successful completion of the tests the branch selects the one that fits the bill.

If some of you guys want to get bent out of shape over a company making a military weapon that civilians are allowed to buy, save yourself the trouble. Its a merely offensive weapon, not designed for ccw, was not intended to be a target pistol. It had one purpose; an offensive pistol with silencer capabilities and to be a rugged operational weapon. In that capacity it excels.

I have seen and owned various HK pistols and they are good as a service pistol, accurate, reliable, rugged and with a mullet can make you feel like Snake. Just kidding on the last part, but really they are good for some and others not so much. If you are in market for a service pistol go to a range and borrow/rent one, if you like how it shoots get one. Dont just buys a pistol because so and so has or uses it.

So take my comments for what you got them for and if you dont like it you didnt pay for it.

 

[mgregg85]

This old thread again...

I do have to say this, I'd much rather carry my 29oz XD45 into a fight than that massive mk23. I'm even willing to be that my XD45, fully loaded(with it's one extra round) will still weight less or maybe equal the weight of that thing unloaded.

Now I haven't shot one of those things(sorry I don't have rich friends who will spend a grand or two on a pistol) but I have held it and dry fired it at a gun show and I was really unimpressed with the trigger and astonished at the weight.

I'm not a mall ninja or anything but I've gotta think that if I was going to war I'd much prefer to carry that extra weight in ammunition and not an "offensive handgun", whatever that may be.

 

[usp9]

...and astonished at the weight.

I'm astonished to hear you were astonished.

Some common comparisons...

Beretta M9 - 34 oz.

Sig 226 - 34 oz.

Baby Desert Eagle - 38 oz.

GI issue 1911A1 - 39 oz.

Sig Revolution - 40 Oz.

...and what does the "boat anchor" weigh? The one with the beefed up frame, longer, more accurate barrel...suppressor ready...



...38.7 ounces.


You 1911 guys better start dumping those "boat anchors". They just weigh too much. You mean that $2500 Kimber/ Wilson/ Sig holds less ammo, costs more, is less accurate, less robust, less reliable and on top of all that...weighs more.

Hmmmmm...

 

[FantasticChadwick]

OK, this morning, my Mark 23, as much ammo as I cared to carry, and myself went down the street to the shooting range. It was really pretty amazing. As soon as I fired the first shot, women just started coming out of nowhere throwing themselves at my feet, rose pedals began falling from the heavens giving me a red carpet on which to walk, I was instantly transformed into a Navy SEAL. Truly a life altering moment.

So.... not really all of that.

Trigger? Garbage. No, really it is.

OK, I'm whistling a different tune on the trigger. even out of the HK's I own and the ones I've fired, I honestly think the Mark 23 has the very worst trigger of them all. Terrible trigger. Hideous. And sadly, I'm not even being sarcastic. Correia, I'll never again argue the quality of the trigger on a Mark 23 with you. By very far, the trigger is the absolute worst aspect of this pistol.

Out of the box, I loaded each twelve round magazine with exactly 12 rounds. This first image is my target the very first 12 rounds I fired. Obviously needs lo---ts of work.

After emptying a Mag and thinking long and hard about what went so terribly wrong, I re-grouped (no pun intended) and went back to the firing line. This second picture is my target on the second full magazine I ran through my Mark 23. I gave my trigger finger a LOT more focus and you can clearly see the result. Keep in mind, this is showing all 12 shots and the target is gridded by 1" squares.

The second group was done with painstaking concentration on the trigger finger. Although a nice group, the process was dis-appointing to say the least. Every time I shot the pistol without giving the trigger my full undivided attention, my groups spread more than what I consider to be acceptable.

I will say that the groups this pistol was shooting drew lots of attention from people around me who had no idea what the Mark 23 is or any of the so called "hype" around it. Shooters around me were genuinely impressed with how phenomenally tight the groups were - especially at the 25 yard range.

All in all I am thoroughly impressed with the Mark 23 (of course I have to say that after spending so much money on 3 of them). The distance between the front and rear sights is a definite benefit of the pistol's size, the recoil was extremely manageable, and the large grip certainly gives the shooter very comfortable control over the firearm. I am very pleased with the entire package with the only exception being the trigger.

 

[RX-178]

I'd have to say that the entire process around a Mk23 was a serious case of Pentagon-induced 'solution looking for a problem' syndrome. I mean, you're talking about a weapon where the entire requirement was basically 'design a pistol that can replace a rifle'. Well, big surprise, they got a pistol that's in a similar size category.

That being said, the Mk23, by all accounts, did absolutely everything that was asked of it. I have fired a Mk23 two or three times, and it certainly made an impression on me. Or two.

First impression: BIG. My first thoughts were along the lines of 'It's really that big? I thought the camera just added 10 pounds in Metal Gear.'

Second impression: It was the only weapon that day at the range that did not suffer any malfunctions. That impressed me.

Both impressions led me to purchase a USP45 Tactical as my every-day carry. Which quickly changed to my 'every day carry as long as it's not over 100 degrees F that day'. Still, it is the weapon that I have the most confidence in using just because of how reliable it has been.

The other thing however, and I have to stress this to anyone considering a USP or Mk23 for any purpose. If I had bothered to look it up, I may have decided on a different weapon.

MAGAZINES ARE EXPENSIVE. We're talking about a pistol, with 12 round magazines, that each cost upwards of $60. In my opinion, that's insane. Of course, I've purchased five extra ones since buying the pistol, so I know I'm at least a little tweaked in the head.

Although, it has come to my attention that the USP MIGHT, and I must stress MIGHT, be the only weapon I have ever known to actually function reliably with aftermarket Promag magazines. I purchased a Promag 20 rounder as a range toy accessory, and so I could take cool-looking photographs of the weapon. It has yet to induce a jam after being used for over 300 rounds.

 

[bondmid003]

I own a USP 40, I'd actually like to hear what the benefits of the Tactical version are from someone who owns both

 

[Landpimp]

I have a Mk23.....its the one HK I honestly just dont like/love....its cool and all, but I can shoot as well or better with just my normal ole USP

but I got the Mk23 cheap...so its not going anyplace, i do use it to chock the tires on my Cruisers sometimes

 

[benderx4]

Size is relative. Given a big enough pocket, even a Mark 23 can be used for CCW. I put the Seecamp in my left pocket, and the Mark 23 in my right.

 

[ugaarguy]

Some common comparisons...

Beretta M9 - 34 oz.

Sig 226 - 34 oz. - aluminum frame

Baby Desert Eagle - 38 oz. - steel frame

GI issue 1911A1 - 39 oz. - steel frame

Sig Revolution - 40 Oz. - steel frame and horridly blocky slide

...and what does the "boat anchor" weigh? The one with the beefed up frame, longer, more accurate barrel...suppressor ready...



...38.7 ounces. - plastic frame

Exactly. It's a plastic frame gun that weighs just 3 tenths of an ounce less than a steel frame 1911. You ignore full size aluminum frame 1911s, which weigh only 31 ounces. How does a plastic frame gun weight 7.7 ounces more than a full size aluminum frame, steel slide, 1911? More accurate - it's on par with most good 1911s, and SIG P220s from what I've seen. Again, $150 - $200 and I can get a 1911 or P220 set up for a suppressor.

You 1911 guys better start dumping those "boat anchors". They just weigh too much. You mean that $2500 Kimber/ Wilson/ Sig holds less ammo, costs more, is less accurate, less robust, less reliable and on top of all that...weighs more.

If you're paying $2500 for a SIG or a Kimber you're getting ripped off. $900 to $1200 (roughly half the cost of a Mk.23) is more like it. For a little more money, still less money than a Mk.23, I'd skip Wilson: $600 for a donor SA GI or Mil Spec, and then send it to Jim Stroh at Alpha Precision to the AP I build done for an additional $829.00. I'd come out out with a hand crafted pistol for less money than an assembly line built Mk.23. I've yet to see any evidence that a Mk.23 is more mechanically accurate than a 1911 or a P220. I'm also not sure how a Mk.23 can be more reliable than 100%, which is what I've seen out friends P220s, and my 1911s (other than a POS SIG GSR - they should stick to the P220 for .45 ACP pistols). Less robust - a pistol is only as strong as its weakest link - better keep a good supply of the those little o-rings around. Sure, it'll run without one, but it loses your accuracy argument when the little rubber ring wears out.