H&R "Pardner" Pump

[Titus]

I was just thinking of threading it for the Williams apertures. It looks similar to the Williams part that some folks just remove the aperture from and use as a ghost ring.

 

[MAX100]

It would be easy to make the little bar that slides in the slot and then drill & tap it for Williams apertures. The GR aperture that is on it is all you need. The smaller Williams apertures are for long range rifle shooting.


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[mrbambastik]

I've bought a Norinco 982 a while back, following MAX100's review in another thread. Can't find anything bad about it.
If you want to compare apples to apples though, I'll tell you what: compare the Norinco 982 to the Wilson Combat shotgun or to the Mossberg 590A1, not to the Rem 870. Compare a military shotgun to another military shotgun, not to a short-barreled-trap-gun.

The Norinco 982 is China's military shotgun.

I don't care if they copied the Wilson Combat or if Wilson Combat copied the Norinco, in the end the Chinese are able to mass produce a quality firearm for a fraction of the price of Wilson Combat who is unable to mass-produce theirs.

When I read people trying to move the argument to "It's Chinese, it's commie-bad", it tells me they find no bad argument on the technical aspects of the Norinco 982. Not a single one. So they go try to find something else to talk about and muddy the water.

But to anyone with good judgement, it is not complicated.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Max and Mrbam, if Al Queada made an 870 clone at a competitive price, would you buy or sell them?

 

[MAX100]

Max if Al Queada made an 870 clone at a competitive price, would you buy or sell them?

That is a big stretch to compare China & AL Queada. China products have been a main staple of the US economy for many years. The US economy would fall apart without them. They fund the US Iraq War.


If anyone feels that strongly about China they should stop buying Remington firearms. Cerberus is the one giving their money to China.

I am a business owner not a Politician. I leave the Politics to the crooks in DC.



Product competition is always a good thing for the consumer.


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[HB]

That is a big stretch to compare China & AL Queada. China products have been a main staple of the US economy for many years. The US economy would fall apart without them. They fund the US Iraq War.

Agreed, I would assume most of us here believe in Capitalism in one way or another. China is offering a more or less equal product but at a discounted price. While I do want to say buy American..... China isn't an all out opponent, although the Communists in control still keep the chinese ignorant, although 10 years from now that may not be the case.

I would still probably buy an 870 instead though just because it's an established gun.

HB

 

[chasw]

PP shotgun

Max100, Good info on these lowcost shotguns. Dicks here in Lex,Ky had them for 179.00 a couple months ago. I have limited $ and shop for the best deal if possible. Remington 870 are around 300.00 and Mossberg 250.00 for the same type shotgun. Chasw

 

[ladykilla]

Dave, really? You are so hardcore that no items in your home were bought in China? That's exactly how you are makining it sound like. Since we are in the asking mood, Dave, do you have any items in your home/vehicle that were made in China?

This anti-China argument is getting old and your points of argument are a bit laughable. If you want to be the one to save America on your white horse, then do so all the way. Not just on the topic of a shotgun.

 

[rbernie]

This anti-China argument is getting old and your points of argument are a bit laughable.

Well, let's be fair. There is a difference between buying Chinese made toys for my kids (which may cause them lead poisoning but the offshoring of that manufacturing doesn't otherwise result in a significant technical benefit to China) and buying weapons from the arms research and manufacturing side of the Peoples Liberation Army. Y'all are sounding just as silly in rebuttal as you suggest the anti-China argument sounds.

In the end, I think the most rational argument for those who don't care about geopolitics is still economic. I can demonstrably buy an clean lightly used 870 Express Magnum off Gunbroker, AuctionArms, GunsAmerica or even locally for the same price as a Nork. All y'all who want to compare Wingmaster prices to the Nork are smokin' crack; the Nork is comparable to the Express Magnum and clearly does not even TRY to have the fit-n-finish of an 870 Wingmaster.

So, mano-a-mano, the Nork on a good day is only FRACTIONALLY (a twenty spot or so) less than a typical clean used 870 Magnum Express, and on an average day actually costs MORE than a used 870 Magnum Express. I've proven FOUR TIMES in the last six months that I can buy an excellent-condition 870 Express Magnum for up to $50 LESS than a Nork can be bought at Academy Sports.

So why would I want one when it offers no economic advantage, and is an unproven quantity? It makes ZERO sense, unless it offers some feature set that the 870 does not.

So far, the rear GRS is about the only argument that I've seen that might make the Nork look like a contender.

 

[rbernie]

Here ya go:

A used sub-$150 870 Express Magnum for sale; at current auction price will be under $200 after shipping and transfer fees are included.

Look! Here's a Express Super Magnum, also under $150 plus shipping and transfer fees, putting at at less than $200 in my hand.

This 870 Express looks like a good HD gun. Oooh, look - right now sitting at $190 plus shipping and transfers. That's just a bit more than the out-the-door price of a Norinco at my local big-box sporting good store.

Hey! An 870 Express with rifle sights and a monte-carlo stock. Dang - it's not even $140 yet.

We can do this ALL DAY LONG, guys. A $180 + tax Nork IS NOT A BARGAIN, no matter how you spin it.

 

[MAX100]

rbernie

Those are plain "used" 870 shotguns.

"New" Norinco 982 shotguns come with a nice set of GRS that would cost you almost as much as the shotgun if you had to buy a similar set after market. All for $180. The Norinco 982 bbl locking lug is in a better location for a tactical shotgun. This is important when you want to mount a flashlight mount on the shotgun. It is also a stronger mag tube extension setup.

The 870, Norinco 982 and the Norinco made Pardner Pump are all well made shotguns. Buy the one that you feel suits you best.


GC

 

[rbernie]

"New" Norinco 982 shotguns come with a nice set of GRS that would cost you almost as much as the shotgun if you had to buy a similar set after market.

Agreed. I was referring specifically to the OPs question WRT the NEF Pardner Pump.

The 870, Norinco 982 and the Norinco made Pardner Pump are all well made shotguns.

But only one has seen more than a half century of use and is proven to last hundreds and hundreds of thousands of rounds for the money that it costs to buy it.

One is proven, the other is still supposition. You may be right, but only time will tell.

Your money, your chances.

 

[MAX100]

But only one has seen more than a half century of use and is proven to last hundreds and hundreds of thousands of rounds for the money that it costs to buy it.

One is proven, the other is still supposition. You may be right, but only time will tell.

The 982 has been imported into the US for 10 years now with tens of thousands sold. How long does it take for you and others to consider it proven, Never. In my eyes and others who own them, they are proven. No one ever post that they are having problems with one. I have seen one post in the last year where someone was having a problem with the action lock on his Pardner Pump.

Guns & Ammo magazine did a review on them in their July 2000 issue. They said they had to be the best deal going in a tactical shotgun. They gave it 3 out of 4 stars. I bought my 982 shortly after that. They have made some improvements on them since then.


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[rbernie]

An honest question, given the tactical slant to the 982 - what LE agencies have picked up the 982 or the basic Pardner Pump as an issued weapon? Has anyone put the Norks thru the quals for any LE agency, to see how they fare under documented hard use?

 

[Big D]

So you're tellin' me that none of yall go to Wal-Mart or buy ANY of their products? Just in case you do, and forgot, 99.9% of the **** they sell is manufactured, assembled, and or made in China, People's Repulic Of. I don't like it, but that is the way it is. If the U.S. Govt would stop forcing companies from its own soil by the taxes they have to pay, plus all the regulations they have to go by, then maybe, just maybe you would have more U.S. stuff made in the USA.

Why would anybody who is trying to make a profit produce something in the US and barely break even, when they can actually make something overseas? No, I don't agree with it, nor do I like it. Never have, never will. But somehow, someday, somebody is gonna have to face the music. Times have changed....and they are constantly changing. I hate it as much as the next person, but these are the facts of life.

 

[MAX100]

I have only heard of one Police dept who issued them. I don't know if it is true or not. I have sold the 982 & the model 37 Ithaca copy to Police officers. What they did with them I don't know. There are a lot of guns that are well made that will never be considered for LE issue for whatever reason.


Here is the Norinco model 37 Ithaca copy with factory GRS and metal heat shield. It is well made also. I haven't seen any in a few years. I wish I would have kept one when I had them.




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[Hawk]

China products have been a main staple of the US economy for many years. The US economy would fall apart without them. They fund the US Iraq War.

I'm no expert on the matter and, as noted previously, I reside in a glass house. However, we seem to be missing something of import that Dave mentioned:

China's a subcontinent holding 1 of 4 humans now alive. Lots of enterprises there that have nothing to do with the govt.

Norinco's owned and operated by the Chinese military, the muscles behind the human rights violations, the oppression and the evils done in Tibet and elsewhere.

RBernie has noted something similar.

I take that to mean that there's Chinese manufactured stuff completely distinct from military or government subsidized Chinese manufactured stuff. If I'm correct this would not be a subtle distinction.

The toys or other household goods you buy from Chinese suppliers are not owned and / or subsidized by the Chinese military.

Assuming this source to be authoritative, and I have no knowledge if that's the case, it would seem there are "two Chinas".

This trend is an outgrowth of Mao-era doctrines of "People’s War" which sought to create multiple redundant factories to ensure weapons production even after the capture of Chinese territory. But instead of rationalizing its defense sector, since the PLA reforms of 1998, China has promoted and subsidized increasing competition among its weapons design and manufacturing concerns, with a resulting surplus of systems.

This would lead me to believe that some Chinese products are competing "fairly" (whatever that means) while some are subsidized by government policy.

I can see where some folks would feel a bit of disquiet knowing their shotgun came from an overseas equivalent of Raytheon or GE.

Also, the poster that linked to "military shotgun" photo from the website of our friend Max P. probably didn't notice the double shot of irony on the page containing the photo.

This one:
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh38-e.htm

It seems the Hawk 97-1 is actually marketed as an "anti riot gun". This may have special significance for those of us that remember the events of 1989. I expect there are a number of folks on these fora that were still in diapers in 1989 and wouldn't see irony in purchasing a Tiananmen Square Commemorative Anti-Riot shotgun as it were.

I still intend to stay clear of the politics, apart from posting what I found recently above, but I have a better appreciation for those that do see issues. It would appear there are indeed "two Chinas" as far as products go and the Norinco is firmly on the government / military subsidized side. That says nothing about an ability to mass produce a product competitively and much about being part of a system that has little constraints regarding the need to show a profit - quite unlike the product I'm familiar with that must stand on its own two feet profit-wise and actually lives at the upper end of its scale - it pretty much has to given the freight and other import costs.

I'm feeling rather of a subtle shift in my attitude though it remains, at this time, largely uninformed. But I didn't want a Norc anyway so no harm done, I suppose. If it's indeed subsidized I have no respect for their price point. I'm not prepared to state such as fact given two hours of old guy internet research - I'll cheerfully listen to anyone that has better information. At this point, it looks like what we used to call "dumping".

 

[hoghead]

That doesnt mean those used Remingtons will end up selling that low the bidding has not even ended

 

[Hawk]

That doesnt mean those used Remingtons will end up selling that low the bidding has not even ended

I had to log in to Gunbroker to do a search on closed / sold auctions. Hope these work:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104249215
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104792904
They won't work for terribly long - Gunbroker purges older stuff.

Nevertheless, I doubt you'll find anyone mounting a serious assertion that a similarly configured 870 would be priced like the "anti-riot" Norinco with ghost rings et al.

If the objective is simply the lowest cost shotgun in any configuration I can see the occasional used 870 diving under the Hawk. I'd be most surprised to see it happen when the configurations were similar.

In fact, someone seems to be doing a reasonably brisk business in 870 Tac barrels ONLY with a buy-it-now over the Norc's price:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104302380
(there were several such listings).

 

[MAX100]

Hawk

The US Government allows Norinco firearms to be imported into this country. Cerberus Remington H&R pays Hawk Ind. to make it happen. There is big market for Norinco firearms in the US, Canada and many countries around the world.

I guess you have some work to do convincing the world. Maybe this is a better idea, let's leave the Politics to the crooks we vote into office.



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[Dave McCracken]

Nice duckndodge, Max. I imagine Vidkun Quisling was equally as talented 'splaining himself.

Or Marshall Foch.

There's a fair amount of China made stuff here. There's NOTHING made by the Chinese Army.

China is loaded with entrepreneurs selling stuff to us.

China is run by the worst dictatorship left on Earth, and I refuse to support them by doing anything that pays for their oppression.

You refuse to see or maybe just acknowledge the difference.

" Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain" -Frank Baum....

 

[Titus]

So what you're saying is you're not buying anything from the "Quislings" at Remington anymore then?

 

[forrestd]

There's a fair amount of China made stuff here. There's NOTHING made by the Chinese Army.

No, but the taxes collected because of the business activity goes to the Chinese government which can allocate it to their military.

Also, China's dictatorship is worse than Sudan's, Saudi Arabia's, or even North Korea's? If you say so.

 

[ohioarmedneutrality]

I've never understood why someone has a problem with me buying a brand new shotgun made in China, but not an SKS or an AK or accessories made in China. For me the choice was simple. The PPP was a really solid gun, perfect for home defense, and it was at least $50 cheaper than a crappy used Mossberg.

 

[MAKster]

To those people who are opposed to buying Chinese made guns, how do you feel about buying German Mauser rifles that were used by Nazis to kill American soldiers in WWII.