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Had a failure to fire on my autoloader

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ump45

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Mar 4, 2003
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Happened for the first time ever.

I keep my SIG P226 well cleaned and loaded with 10+1 in a handgunsafe, which contains two sorb-it pads, an extra loaded magazine, and my loaded S&W 686P.

I brought the entire safe like that to the local outdoor gun range, without opening or changing the contents of the safe.

After setting up targets and so on, I opened the box and grabbed and fired the SIG P226 at the target 15 yards away. *Click*.

*Click*

I had to rack the slide, eject the unfired round, and fire the next round at the target. *Bang*.

After emptying the magazine, I grabbed the unfired cartridge from the table and gave it a brief visual inspection. Everything seems to be fine with it.

After this incident, I decided to switch to my S&W 686P for my personal defense needs.
 
I love my semiautos (rifles, shotguns, and pistols) but the only two guns I have loaded in the house are a Colt Trooper .357 and a 12ga stagecoach gun with exposed hammers. With each gun you have an immediate second shot if there is a misfire.

rk
 
Welcome to THR.

First guess is whatever you cleaned it with, deadened the primer. Second guess is something in firing pin did not allow a full "hit". Sometimes solvents/oils will loosen crude,only to dry back up and cause problems, and again the primer dealie.

Most of the time on my CCW while still at the range; I do an inspect and maintain, brush, pipe clean, Q-tip chamber and oil if need...but you cannot see the oil, I go e-a-s-y on lubing. I then fire at least 1 mag, usually 2 and don't go to slidelock. Holster and done. The gun runs, and POA/POI not affected by cleaning bbl, I don't clean bbls, I shoot jacketed ammo, I only clean chambers.

Any guns that I have kept in a gunvault or hidden for HD or in a business have been function tested at range and not cleaned,only as described as above...only wiped off for prints, be it Semi's or Revolvers. ( or anything else for that matter).
 
You aren't out of the woods yet and may have decided wrongly on the source of the problem.
Questions to consider:
1) was firing pin imprint on the primer just as deep as the fired cases?
2) age of ammo? how long have you had it in the chamber?
3) commercial load or reload? Its easy to collapse the anvil on a boxer primer with some equipment.
4) are you using a penetrating oil on the gun? WD-40 is a great product but can deactivate ammo.
5) did you try to fire the primer a second time? result?
6) if commercial, was it fresh premium ammo (I reserve this for PD purposes) or K-mart whatevers-on-the-shelf stuff (I reserve this for plinking).
I bet someone else could add a dozen more questions. You have a mystery on your hands. Time to do a little detective work. Good luck.
 
1) was firing pin imprint on the primer just as deep as the fired cases?

I do not know the answer to this question.

2) age of ammo? how long have you had it in the chamber?

Several months in the chamber.

3) commercial load or reload? Its easy to collapse the anvil on a boxer primer with some equipment.

Commercial load.


4) are you using a penetrating oil on the gun? WD-40 is a great product but can deactivate ammo.

Using BreakFree CLP exclusively on all parts, and wiped dry with clean patches.

5) did you try to fire the primer a second time? result?

Yes, I tried to fire the primer a total of 2 times. Both failed.

6) if commercial, was it fresh premium ammo (I reserve this for PD purposes) or K-mart whatevers-on-the-shelf stuff (I reserve this for plinking).

It was premium ammo. Federal HydraShok 135gr +p 9mm.
 
The 'C' in CLP is cleaner--that means a solvent.

If you let any CLP get into the firing pin channel (through the small hole in the breechface) during cleaning, it could very well have leaked out and deactivated the primer in the chambered round.
 
1) was firing pin imprint on the primer just as deep as the fired cases?

I do not know the answer to this question.

You did not note if the primer was hit by the firing pin or not upon examination of the failed round?

It would be interesting to see if you stored the gun in the same manner (pre-prepped in the same way before storage as in the previous experience) for the same amount of time and note any differences when you take it out again to perform the same routine at the range.
 
The fact is that sometimes even premium comercial ammunition just doesnt go bang. its a fact of life and there really isnt anything that can be done about it. It would have happened in the revolver just as easily. The only difference is that rather than racking the slide you just have to pull the trigger easily. Of course the other difference is that if it happened in the revolver your stuck with only 5 rounds. In the Sig youd have 9. If that doesnt make a difference for you then go with whatever setup your confident in. For the record i carry an sp-101 ;)
 
You just learned an easy lesson on why it's important to practice malfunction drills. No matter how well prepared we are, Murphy sometimes jumps out of the woodwork and gums up the works.
The most common failure to fire is a dud primer, light firing pin strike, slide out of battery or hard primer. It happens even with the strictest quality control.
Next time you're out on the range load a mag with some dummies in the mix and practice "tap, rack, bang" drills.
You may also want to consider doing a detail strip and cleaning of your gun on a 6 month or yearly schedule depending on climatic and enviromental considerations.
 
I'd agree with most of the comments here wholeheartedly.

Sometimes ammo just doesn't pop; good stuff and bad stuff alike. I had a very similar experience over Christmas. We went shooting and as I was clearing out my old defensive ammo and reloading with new stuff, I pulled my 686-5 out of its Bianchi #7L and fired it five times. I pulled the trigger six times. Eesh. :eek: T'weren't too happy about that. The round in question was a Federal Classic Hi-Shok 125gr JHP (which popped on the third try).

BTW, I also had my Sig 229 with me on my trip. You've got fine taste in weapons there ump45. 686P? Now, tell me what that extra hole is fo? Hold a survival kit? Matches, fishing line, etc? :D

It just goes with the terrirory. With an auto, tap-rack-bang (tap-rack-assess, or whatever) is just part of learning to shoot and maintain the weapon. All firearms have failture drills we should associate with them, since they can all fail. It's a little unnerving to hear a click instead of a bang, but I agree that the failure here was with the ammo not the gun.
 
I'd give the 226 another chance. Run another 500 rounds into your pistol and cycle your HD ammo once a month. I would have been more worried if the rounds in your magazine didnt pop off. It could have been a deactivated primer or just a bad round. You've got good taste in guns. :)
 
Freeways are very dangerous places to be, but we generally accept the involved risks and drive on them whenever we want to get anywhere not local, and which can't be easily reached by surface streets ... That doesn't mean freeways aren't any less "dangerous", though, we just tend to sometimes "forget" about it.

I've personally seen fresh factory pistol ammunition from Federal, Winchester & Remington which failed to fire, with apparent "bad" primers exhibiting acceptable firing pin indentations.

I've seen fresh ammunition with split cases, improperly seated bullets & primers, over-length cases which failed to chamber when the pistol cycled, etc ... Stick around ranges long enough and you'll probably either personally encounter, or at least hear about, cases with no primer pockets, no primers, backwards seated primers, or no flashholes in the primer pocket, no powder ... to mention a few problems.

I've also seen service ammunition which failed to fire, but which also appeared to have been exposed to excessive amounts of penetrating lubricants and solvents.

I've also seen semiauto pistols which had been improperly cleaned, "enough" times, so that the firing pin was trapped within a mass of sludge & debris, and was unable either reach the firing pin, or else lacked sufficient force to detonate the primer if it did reach it.

As owners we can take all necessary steps to visually inspect and check all new factory ammunition for apparent, potential problems ... and reloaders can take additional precautions ... and then take care to properly store and "use" the ammunition so that it's not adversely affected ... AND THEN, we can take the proper steps to clean, lubricate, store and use the firearms so they function properly.

Look at how many people fail to properly maintain their vehicles in good condition, until finally problems occur ...

We can only do what we can do ... but that's often a good deal of a lot, if done properly.

On the other hand, even if you take the best care possible, and use the best quality ammunition, which visually appears to be in fine condition ... how can you tell if the primer is going to work?

Like the man said, that's why we focus during training ... or should, anyway ... on what to do when malfunctions occur. Going into "brain-lock", and "freezing" at the wrong time, can be a BAD thing. Mr Murphy isn't known for his frequent warnings ... although he just apparently was nice enough to allow you a heads-up, wasn't he? Just something to think about, maybe?

Your 686 is a fine defensive weapon. I carried one on & off duty for several years. So is the SIG.

A "BAD" round of ammunition can happen with anyone's ammunition, though, as we've already heard discussed ... and a "bad" round doesn't care whether it's loaded into a semiauto pistol or a revolver.

Perhaps a little firearms maintenance and skills training review is in order? I certainly ask myself that same question any time I encounter a "new" circumstance which could adversely affect my ability to use one of my weapons for actual defensive purposes. Is there something I could've doen which might've prevented the possibility of the problem that occurred, or, at least, quickly & safely addressed & resolved the problem if it had occurred somewhere other than at the range?

Stay safe, live well, and practice as if your life depended on it.;)
 
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Federal Hydrashok. I used to carry it, in .45. I went to the range one day to fire the old stuff- 6-7 months old, and had 3 rounds that would not fire. I ran them each through my Combat Commander, my P14, and my Kimber Gold Match. None would fire after multiple attempts in 3 guns. In my opinion- switch ammo. Yeah, yeah, I know there are many of you that depend on Hydrashok, just as I did, this is my opinion based on my experience.
 
I've never had a misfire with any quality commercial centerfire ammo.

A couple of problems with old surplus ammo or rimfire, but the VAST majority of that goes bang on the first try too.

If you're having misfires with new, good quality, commercial ammunition then you need to take a HARD look at everything ELSE besides the ammo to start with. AFTER everything else has been eliminated then the ammo could be the problem.

Rounds that have been chambered a long time fail to fire.
Solvent from the firing pin channel has deactivated the primer

Rounds in a firearm that has been loaded for a long time fail to fire.
Solvents perhaps, as above.
High temperatures have caused the primer/powder to break down.

General problems
Lightened springs or home trigger jobs have reduced the force of the hammer strike.
Broken firing pin.
Malfunctioning firing pin safety.
 
After this incident, I decided to switch to my S&W 686P for my personal defense needs.

END

No offense but thats a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Any gun will fail if you fire it enough. Revolvers misfire, get cases stuck under the extractor and have bullets jump crimp. Autos can fail to fire, fail to eject ext. Clear the malfunction and get back in the fight. A type one malfunction like you had can be cleared in 1 to 1.5 seconds. That could get you killed. So could needing more than 6 rounds when you don't have it. Or having to reload the revolver. A 686 is a fine gun. But don't sell the sig short because of a round that did not fire.

Get some handgun training no matter which gun you chose and learn how to run it. Not just shoot the gun but run the gun. That means tactical reloads, speed reloads, malfunction drills, weapon retention drills ext. What you should have done when the gun clicked is a tap (the bottom of the magazine) rack (the slide) access ( the target) does he still need to be shot. With revolvers a type one is easy just pull the trigger again. The more difficult operations with a revolver include speed loading and tactical loading. Failing to properly unload a revolver can leave you with a case stuck under the extractor star. This is a very difficult problem to fix. Another problem with some revolvers is bullets jumping crimp and tying up the cylinder.
Pat
 
Failing to properly unload a revolver can leave you with a case stuck under the extractor star. This is a very difficult problem to fix.
:rolleyes:
But oh so simple to completely avoid in the first place.
Another problem with some revolvers is bullets jumping crimp and tying up the cylinder.
:rolleyes:
Unless you're using the wrong ammo in a super lightweight wheel gun or are not properly crimping your reloads it probably will never happen.
 
quote:
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Failing to properly unload a revolver can leave you with a case stuck under the extractor star. This is a very difficult problem to fix.
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But oh so simple to completely avoid in the first place.

quote:
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Another problem with some revolvers is bullets jumping crimp and tying up the cylinder.
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Unless you're using the wrong ammo in a super lightweight wheel gun or are not properly crimping your reloads it probably will never happen.


END

I have seen both happen in real life. You must not get out enough.
Pat:rolleyes:
 
As die-hard a revolver guy as I am, I have to say that what happened here was JUST as likely with a wheelgun as with a semi.

EXCEPT that as he noted, with the wheelgun you just pull the trigger again to bring a completely fresh round to the firing position.

That's what he meant by "immediate second strike".
 
Have you had this problem w/ your pistol before? How many rounds have you shot through this pistol? If there are no mechanical problems w/ your gun, I'd strike your problem up to find a bad round. Have you tried shooting it from another gun?
 
Pat believe me I get out plenty.

Getting a cartridge stuck under the extractor star is caused by carelessness. Nothing more. For all of the preaching you do about shooter induced malfunctions this is the BEST expample there is.

As for having a bullet jump the case. That's poor reloading practices. Using too heavy of a bullet in a too light of a revolver. When those uberlight S&W revolvers say on the barrel for xxx-gr or less thay MEAN IT.
Using the incorrect ammo is another one of your shooter induced malfunctions.

I have seen both of these conditions happen. That doesn't make them common. I have seen more than one shooter shoot themselves in their own leg. That is DEFINATELY a shooter induced "malfunction". Thankfully it wasn't in my class or one of my students.

But most shooters havd never seen any of the above three things happen.
And a smart shooter will NEVER have any of these three things happen.

Of course they have happened in the past, and they will continue to happen in the future because there are stupid people being born even as we speak.

Don't blame the gun though. It's not the guns fault.
 
Getting a cartridge stuck under the extractor star is caused by carelessness. Nothing more. For all of the preaching you do about shooter induced malfunctions this is the BEST expample there is.
end

It is an error on the shooters part and I said that. However it still happens. People still short stroke pump guns and limp wrist autos. But under stress with the minimally trained bad things happen. I had a round jump crimp on my Colt Python during a bowling pin match. Very rare but it did happen. Was not a reload either.
Pat
 
I had to rack the slide, eject the unfired round, and fire the next round at the target. *Bang*.

After emptying the magazine, I grabbed the unfired cartridge from the table and gave it a brief visual inspection. Everything seems to be fine with it.

Sounds to me its an ammo problem. All machine can malfunction, including the ones that's made for making ammo.
 
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