hangfires and unburned powder?

[Axis II]

I just got home from the range today and had a ton of issues! I had about 9 hang fires, groups all over the place and 3 that the powder was just scorched but didn't go off!!

Load is 50gr Z max with anywhere from 23gr-25gr of benchmark with a cci 400 primer, Remington brass about 2 times fired, FL sized out of a Savage axis 223rem. 23-23.6gr shot very well with one group of 4 I could cover with a dime at 100yards but I noticed when I got to 23.6 the problems started. 1 hang fire and threw the round about 3.5'' low, fired the next round and hang fire but hit where I wanted it, next round went off fine and the next round hang fired, 5th round wouldn't go off but had a good primer strike. Next 5 pack included 2 that would not fire at all with good primer strikes and a few more hang fires.

I took the 3 rounds that didn't go off home and immediately pulled them to find powder in there but I couldn't get it out and it looked yellow. I took a small drill bit and loosened up the powder and poured it into the pan and I had clumps stuck together that was yellow in color and the powder smelled burnt. All 3 rounds had the same thing. Clumps and burnt smell and really hard close to the primer.

Any clue what the heck happened here? I usually don't run cci 400 SR primer and run cci 450 for everything so I have no real life experience with these primers. I am about 98% sure the powder in the Remington brass was about 2yo and was the last of the 1lbs jug. I fired about 10 rounds with another rifle with a new jug of BM and cci 450 primers and LC brass and all went off without issue.

Any clue what the heck happened here?

 

[WestKentucky]

Sounds like your powder soaked up moisture at some point. I have had old shotgun shells do what you are describing after they got wet.

 

[Axis II]

Sounds like your powder soaked up moisture at some point. I have had old shotgun shells do what you are describing after they got wet.

I figured that at first but these rounds were loaded about 2-3 weeks ago and stored in a plastic ammo box in the house. I'm wondering if I didn't put the lid back on the jug tight enough.

 

[Demi-human]

Do you stainless tumble?

 

[Axis II]

Do you stainless tumble?

Nope. corn cob. These cases have been sitting in a plastic ammo box waiting to be loaded for about a year. I purchased the Remington brass just for this rifle to keep it separate from the other 223. I sized and corn cob tumbled to get lube off then loaded.

 

[Demi-human]

A conundrum then...

The lid seems reasonable, though unlikely. If I recall you are not elderly and law enforcement usually have a strong grip. If open in a terrible environment it can definitely absorb moisture.

Hmm... Very curious.

 

[Axis II]

A conundrum then...

The lid seems reasonable, though unlikely. If I recall you are not elderly and law enforcement usually have a strong grip. If open in a terrible environment it can definitely absorb moisture.

Hmm... Very curious.

Not elderly and not LE. Worked in the private sector for housing authority/Brinks trucks but don't do that anymore. Jugs stay in the basement in a small cabinet. I found it odd that it was yellow too! I can see moisture making it not ignite or making it glob up but turning it yellow and hard as a rock. The top portion of the powder was normal in color but closer to the primer was yellow so maybe it just seared that part.

 

[CKweigand]

I’ve recently started putting desiccant packs in my ammo cans that start off blue and turn pink when moisture content is high...to my amazement within a month and a half I noticed the color fading to pink. Orings and seals were nice and tight. I use plastic and steel cans, problem is the room in the basement where I’m left to put this stuff has some significant temp swings. Im hoping when we buy a new house within a year I’ll have a dedicated climate controlled room for this stuff. Invested way too much to let moisture ruin it...so as of late I have a little dehumidifier that is constantly on in the small room. Seems to help quite a bit.

 

[243winxb]

The powder starting burning, then just stopped.

Using a spray lube?

 

[WestKentucky]

Nope. corn cob. These cases have been sitting in a plastic ammo box waiting to be loaded for about a year. I purchased the Remington brass just for this rifle to keep it separate from the other 223. I sized and corn cob tumbled to get lube off then loaded.

Cob in your flash hole? Don't see that doing this, but maybe...did you have cob in your rounds that you pulled down?

 

[Axis II]

The powder starting burning, then just stopped.

Using a spray lube?

No sir! Imperial wax.

 

[Axis II]

Cob in your flash hole? Don't see that doing this, but maybe...did you have cob in your rounds that you pulled down?

Nope. I actually figured that and sifted through the powder in the pan and nothing. I also shined a light in the case and nothing weird in there either. Right now I'm guessing something got wet.

 

[Demi-human]

Nitro cellulose is yellowish. The graphite makes it grey. I don't know how, but suspect it got wet. The five or six thousand pounds of pressure in a primer will force out any media.

Curious.

Pull any left and walk tall. You've paid off Murphy for awhile!

 

[Axis II]

Nitro cellulose is yellowish. The graphite makes it grey. I don't know how, but suspect it got wet. The five or six thousand pounds of pressure in a primer will force out any media.

Curious.

Pull any left and walk tall. You've paid off Murphy for awhile!

I have 5 rounds left from that lot so ill just pull them and toss the powder in the garden. I'm curious to see if its clumpy like the other.

 

[Demi-human]

I am too. Could you let us know the outcome please?

 

[Axis II]

I am too. Could you let us know the outcome please?

Will do. It was funny when they wouldn't fire at the range i shook them to make sure i put powder in them and when i didn't hear anything i said ill be damned i didn't even put powder in these and the whole ride home im racking my brain trying to figure out how i didn't put powder in these. I pulled the bullets and there was powder and when i tried to pour it out it wouldn't budge.

 

[murf]

probably got moisture in the old one pound jug. i'd evaluate my case cleaning/prep method and make sure no moisture is sneaking into the prepped case and just carry on with the new pound of powder.

luck,

murf

 

[otisrush]

I have 5 rounds left from that lot so ill just pull them and toss the powder in the garden. I'm curious to see if its clumpy like the other.

After the powder is pulled from one of those rounds is it worth it to try igniting it somehow? Maybe take a sample from the bottle and compare the two? I think I might have watched *1* YouTube video of someone lighting smokeless out in the open. (Meaning I haven't spent much time seeing how smokeless behaves out of a case.) My impression was that it didn't behave nearly as I would have guessed (it burned much more slowly - I presume because of the lack of pressure from something like a case holding it all in). But be that as it may - if it doesn't burn basically at all - I wonder if that would focus the scrutiny to be an issue with the powder, as opposed to some other variable....most of which have been brought up here.

 

[hdwhit]

ohihunter wrote:
...5th round wouldn't go off but had a good primer strike. Next 5 pack included 2 that would not fire at all with good primer strikes and a few more hang fires.

I have never seen traces of moisture cause a powder to clump. Since this problem comes up a couple of times a year, I ran a test where a sample of powder was wetted with water and left to stand with periodic rewetting for more than a month. The granules never stuck together nor was I able to wash off all the graphite.

The fact that you had good primer strikes that did not cause the primer to ignite suggests this is more than some moisture having gotten into the powder since moist powder would not explain why a number of primers failed to ignite.

The entire reloading process should be thoroughly examined from start to finish with particular attention paid to the condition of the components as well as any cleaners, solvents or other chemicals that could 1) cause powder to ignite slowly or fail to ignite at all, and 2) cause a primer to fail to ignite even with a good strike from the firing pin. The causative agent is likely to be something that can cause powder to clump and when it contaminates a primer serve as a "cushion" between the primer compound and the anvil.

 

[Blue68f100]

I've had some powder start clumping in the can when it started breaking down, going bad. The powder was over 35 yrs old though.

 

[Demi-human]

Yes, I don't see moisture infiltration, to the point of non combustion, and still being pourable into a case and appearing otherwise fine. I suspected oil until imperial was said to be used.

 

[Axis II]

Yes, I don't see moisture infiltration, to the point of non combustion, and still being pourable into a case and appearing otherwise fine. I suspected oil until imperial was said to be used.

I trickle each rifle load too so I can see if there would be any issues. The only other thing that just dawned on me after re reading this thread was the wet tumble thing. I don't wet tumble cause I cant afford a $140 machine but when I get range brass which this just reminded me I left a bunch of 10mm, 40, 45 and 9mm in the range bucket I wanted to hoard lol. If its muddy or very nasty I will wash it so I'm not getting all the mud in my tumbler/media and die but I only use Remington brass for this rifle and every piece was Remington brass. I'm kind of wondering if somehow some Remington range pickups didn't make their way into this lot when I was getting brass ready to load. I think the odds of this are 1 in 1billion because all the prepped brass is stored in plastic ammo boxes and labeled what they are. If by some very odd chance the range brass was Remington and didn't dry out after sitting in my slop sink for a month to dry then I put powder into a wet case.

 

[Demi-human]

Last week I just poured water out of the dirty range brass I picked up in the woods, in November. If they aren't uncomfortable to hold, too hot, then they aren't dry yet.

I love my convection oven! How did I reloa.. um, cook, without it?

Two hundred Lapua brass, in a sheet pan, at one hundred and seventy degrees, under convection. With butter and leeks, diced. Dry for thirty minutes, turning halfway to get the nice golden color on both sides. Serve with nitroglycerin and lead garnish. Serves one. For a dinner or multi day competition, multiply by number of guests and matches.

I would think the tumbler would have dried them. I have never used a vibratory tumbler though.

 

[Axis II]

Last week I just poured water out of the dirty range brass I picked up in the woods, in November. If they aren't uncomfortable to hold, too hot, then they aren't dry yet.

I love my convection oven! How did I reloa.. um, cook, without it?

Two hundred Lapua brass, in a sheet pan, at one hundred and seventy degrees, under convection. With butter and leeks, diced. Dry for thirty minutes, turning halfway to get the nice golden color on both sides. Serve with nitroglycerin and lead garnish. Serves one. For a dinner or multi day competition, multiply by number of guests and matches.

I would think the tumbler would have dried them. I have never used a vibratory tumbler though.

I would have thought that also.

 

[murf]

there are a lot of nooks and crannies in a brass case. surface tension keeps water in those places. heat and evaporation would be a good way to get that terrible dihydrogen monoxide out of your cases.

murf