Has Tactical Gone Too Far?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Ah, so iron sides are back up? Here I thought they were a legitimate target aquisition system.

Well, they wouldn't be a very effective back-up if they weren't a legitimate targeting system would they? Just a nit pick; but you don't acquire a target with your irons - that is what the MkI Mod0 eyeball is for.

Seriously though, look at the Marines evaluation of the ACOG (which is now being issued throughout the USMC as the Rifle Combat Optic). Marines are required to hit targets out to 500m with iron sights as part of their basic training. Yet every Marine found the ACOG easier to use and scored better using it at all ranges. Look at any 3-gun competition. How often does the iron sight competitor come out on top of the guys in the open class?

Lots of guys who know how to use iron sights real well choose to use optics as their primary sight. Why do you think that is? Because they are suckers for marketing buzzwords?

Maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough on SWAT/Police/Urban Combat tactics. I live in the country and I don't plan on a tactical entry into a building full of crack dealers anytime soon.

Well, you don't have to be in combat to appreciate an ability to shoot more accurately, more quickly. If you do any type of hunting, timed competition, etc. you realize the benefits of optics. About the only place they may not be apparent is if you spend all your time plinking at a stationary target on the range.

The reason optics are the primary sight system is because they are the more effective sight system for the vast majority of people. This isn't supposition. You can look at military studies. You can look at 3-gun competition[/quote]. You can do your own tests side-by-side with your buddies. The results are apparent.

 

[rustymaggot]

No.

Simply because no one makes a drink can coozie that can be put on a picatinny rail.


Yet.

vibration would disturb any carbonated drink and a good chance it will overflow. you could roll with fruit juice, but soda is out. if you do make one ,maybe a brass catcher is in order, to avoid a empty shell landing in the drink.

 

[308win]

Wanna put your suit and your stalking skills to a test? See how close you can get to a Wild Turkey! Whew!

Where I shoot groundhogs if I sit still long enough a turkey or three will walk by. Turkeys aren't scarce in Licking County.

 

[coylh]

vibration would disturb any carbonated drink and a good chance it will overflow

I.F.D. = Improvised Fizzy Drink

 

[TexasRifleman]

vibration would disturb any carbonated drink and a good chance it will overflow. you could roll with fruit juice, but soda is out. if you do make one ,maybe a brass catcher is in order, to avoid a empty shell landing in the drink.

Actually I saw a picture posted over at arf com where some idiot mounted one on his rail. The photo showed him shooting with what I think was a Miller Lite in the thing.

 

[Mad Bodhi]

98% of the these guy's would be better served learning to shoot rather than getting the latest greatest bit of plastic to hang on a 15 lb .22.The whole problem is that people want to have all the cool stuff because it's something you can show off,you can't show of training as easily.My rifle is not a toy it is a WEAPON,and as such I consider any modifications carefully with a few things in mind.Will it adversely affect reliability? Am I using this as a crutch? Does it add complexity? and last, Are the actual benefits worth the trade off? I am responsible for the safety and well being of my family under any circumstance,from making sure their vehicles are in order and the smoke alarm has batteries to going to war against an aggresor.Always remember that a rifle is for serious business.Keep that in mind and you'll likely end up with a weapon that fits YOUR situation.If that happens to be a 15lb .22 ,well then GODSPEED.

 

[rocky]

Yes, I cannot afford to keep up with all the new ubertactical toys. Hmm, I wonder what color will be "in" for '06? Will coyote brown go by the wayside?

 

[Jeff White]

We live in America where people have enough disposable income to indulge their hobbies. If some guy wants to spend thousands of dollars on the latest HSLD toys so that when his friends come over, he can trot his M4gery out of the safe and impress them, I don't have a problem with that.

To me it's just the same as people who build elaborate model railroads, restore antique cars, build hot rods that will drive 60 mph faster then any posted speed limit, collect antiques, coins or matchbook covers. It's a hobby and if it's not your cup of tea, you don't have to participate.

I have to admit, that sometimes I look at the pictures of some hobbyist's kit on the forums and get a little jealous because my department can't afford some of that stuff and neither can I. The only time I have a problem with that hobby is when an item of equipment becomes very popular and the collectors and airsofters buy it up so quickly that the guys who really use the kit for it's intended purpose can't find it in stock.

Jeff

 

[444]

One of the things that have defined my hobbies since early childhood is the fact that I love gadgets.
I buy as many firearms related gadgets as I can.
In my opinion, the vast majority of stuff I buy has a good solid practical use. And, I arrived at this decision after using the products, which is more than I can say of most of the bashers.
If you spend much time on internet gun forums, you will quickly find out that there are a large number of people who are very negative. There are also a number of people who love to buck trends. If something is popular, they are against it just because it is popular. My dad is like that. If some music is popular, he hates it. If "everyone" is wearing some style, he makes sure he would never be seen wearing that. If men are wearing their hair long, he has his head shaved. If shaved heads are popular, he grows his hair out. He even goes so far as to put down the local football team just because pretty much everyone where he lives root for that team. Thank God that I realized this was stupid behavior and make an effort not to do this myself.

"98% of the these guy's would be better served learning to shoot rather than getting the latest greatest bit of plastic to hang on a 15 lb .22."
I have over a dozen AR15s. I have ARs with barrel lengths of 7.5", 10.5", 16", 20", 24". I have all the cool stuff to go with them including suppressors. I have everything "hanging" off them that I think I want. Cost or weight don't even enter into the equation. If you want to shoot against me, bring it on. I'm not worried.

One of the things that makes me chuckle is reading theads like this where a bunch of people try to impress each other by talking about how they don't buy into the whole "tactical" craze: Why ? Because their guns are built strictly for combat.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

Gadgets are fun and all, but everything is being called tactical now. That's one of the main reasons I think its gotten out of hand. Today I saw an ad for tactical pants.How the hell can pants be tactical?

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

Turkeys aren't scarce in Licking County.

I think I'll have to head up to Licking County next Turkey season. Is there any good public land around there?

 

[308win]

Some around Flint Ridge Park but it gets a lot of pressure. Also around Black Hand Gorge. You might check out Dillon Reservoir area. Most of it is in next county but there are a lot of turkeys. Check the DNR site for public hunting areas. I hunted turkeys in Illinois in the late 70,s and early 80's when there were a half dozen counties or so open and a statewide harvest of 40 was a big deal. Now I will see close to that many in a week during certain times of the year.

 

[Jeff White]

M.E. Eldridge said;

Gadgets are fun and all, but everything is being called tactical now. That's one of the main reasons I think its gotten out of hand. Today I saw an ad for tactical pants.How the hell can pants be tactical?

You're complaining about marketing. I'm sure whatever advertising agency is writing the ads and advising the manufacturers on what to call their products has done some reseach and decided that the word tactical will sell to the target audience. Who knows, next year it might be strategic equipment that everyone wants to buy.

Jeff

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Gadgets are fun and all, but everything is being called tactical now. That's one of the main reasons I think its gotten out of hand. Today I saw an ad for tactical pants.How the hell can pants be tactical?

Well somebody could make a pair of slacks with the "cellphone" pocket on the left hand side. The big cut on the rear pockets of the 5.11 pants is also handy to use as a dump pouch for expended mags.

Are these things 95% of people would appreciate? No. Are they things that are more effective than better training? No. Do they have a limited utility for certain jobs? Sure.

 

[KriegHund]

I want to know your opinions on the matter. Has the tacti-cool fad gotten out of hand? At every gun show I see ARs decked out in all sorts of fancy lights, lasers, collapsable stocks, holographic scopes, grips, mag couplers and other junk. Now I could see the use of a light or laser on a pistol or carbine, in fact I want to put one on a Hi-Point .40 S&W Carbine, but what they got now seems to much to me. Any other thoughts?

When youve got over 3 aiming devices (not including iron sights) i consider that a "Yes".

One flashlight, one red dot, and a forward grip, im fine with.
However, red dot and laser, that seems a little pointless.

It really depends on how usefull the stuff is.

 

[444]

"How the hell can pants be tactical?"
How can a pair of boots be "hunting boots", or "hiking boots" ?
How can a knife be called a "hunting knife" ?
Why would a coat be called a "ski coat " ?
Why would a car be called a "family car", or a "work car" ?
What about a "lawn tractor" or "farm" tractor.

You get the idea.

Many things can be used for multiple uses. Many items were made with a specific purpose in mind and that item works very well for that purpose. That doesn't mean you can't possibly use it for anything else.

Ok, so what would make a pair of pants "tactical" ?
Well, I guess we would be comaring that pair of pants to a pair of dress slacks or maybe jeans ? Or can we campare them to hunting pants ?
They have features like reinforced stitching, pockets down on your thigh that you can got into when wearing gear or body armor, big pockets for carrying gear that would be unsightly at the office, wide belt loops................some even have pockets sewn into the knees that you can insert knee pads into.

I own a couple pairs of tactical pants. I find that they suit me better than any other pants I own for everyday wear. I like to carry a lot of junk in my pockets. I have taken a number of formal shooting classes and wore those pants at those classes and thought they were terrific: when I had worn my two pair and had to go back to jeans it changed my whole style: if nothing else just because I couldn't stuff the pockets full of magazines: both full and empty.

 

[MS .45]

I don't see the problem with it. To each his own. I tend to keep my weapons pretty simple but that is just because I spend a lot of my disposable income elsewhere.

 

[middy]

One of the things that makes me chuckle is reading theads like this where a bunch of people try to impress each other by talking about how they don't buy into the whole "tactical" craze: Why ? Because their guns are built strictly for combat.

I think you nailed it, 444.

 

[Manedwolf]

Yep...although I'm guilty of it myself!

Mainly, the police have gone way, way overboard with this "Tactical" crap. IMHO, SWAT teams were a bad idea 20 years ago and a worse idea today. The SWAT teams are brought in for every instance it seems. Just as an example..that kid in Florida who was shot...and the kid had a pellet gun.

The kid had painted the red tip of it black, and it was a school hostage situation. I call that a good response and a good shoot.

 

[mtnbkr]

No.
Simply because no one makes a drink can coozie that can be put on a picatinny rail.
Yet.

Several years ago (nearly 10), my wife, then girlfriend, gave me a handlebar mounted drink holder for my mountain bike. It even had a quickrelease so you could remove it, leaving the mounting bracket attached. I never figured out a good use for it since I didn't take can drinks on my rides. It was marketed to hold your coffee cup, but the last thing I want on a mtn bike ride is a bouncing cup of steaming hot liquid nearby.

Probably wouldn't be too hard to modify it for a picatinny rail. Heck, it was even made from titanium.

Chris

 

[TechBrute]

Has "Tactical" gone too far?

The more important question is if Cowboy Action Shooting has gone too far! Seriously, limiting yourself to 6 shots in a pistol? 2 shots in a Shotgun? Your can't even use a shotgun that ejects its own shells! What's with that?

How about that silly Hunting? Seriously, they have meat down the street at the deli. Of course some guys have more money in their hunting ATVs than I do in my rifle.

Benchrest shooting? Talk about worthless! 50 pound rifles? Nothing practical there!

Trap and Skeet? Come on, I see shotguns out there that cost more than my car! What do you need all that money in a shotgun for? Nothing practical about that! And for what? Shooting little clay Frisbees!

And what's all this whining about a 10lb rifle? You can have an AR with a light and optic and it would still weigh less than the legendary M1A.

At the end of the day, I have a rifle with a white light and a red dot optic. Totally practical. I'm not wedded to the iron sights as if one must master the irons otherwise they won't be able to hit anything. People who know a WHOLE lot more about practical rifle usage than you do say that a white light is indespensable. People who have FORGOTTEN more about rifle usage than you will ever know have shown over and over the benifit of the red dot optic.

If you want to live under a rock with your single shot muzzleloader, feel free. I won't judge you. Actually, I will...

 

[USMCRotrHed]

If you got it, use it

Yetserday at the range, I looked down the line. I was shooting on the 200 yard targets with my AR (iron sights) and so was 1 other guy. He had a 30/30 lever action with iron sights. There was a guy shooting 100 yards, sighting in his scope for hunting and such. On the far end were 4 others. One guy was teaching his girlfriend to shoot his SKS on the 25 yard targets and then the last 3 guys all had "tactical toys". There were optics and scopes galore on rifles that spent the whole time sitting on the benchrest while shooting.

My point is...if you are going to spend the money on that stuff, use it to it's potential. Those guys had the equipment to outshoot me at 200 yards and they never pushed themselves to see what their gear could do. BUT it sure looked cool. IMHO it would have looked cooler at 200 yards.

 

[308win]

Yetserday at the range, I looked down the line. I was shooting on the 200 yard targets with my AR (iron sights) and so was 1 other guy. He had a 30/30 lever action with iron sights. There was a guy shooting 100 yards, sighting in his scope for hunting and such. On the far end were 4 others. One guy was teaching his girlfriend to shoot his SKS on the 25 yard targets and then the last 3 guys all had "tactical toys". There were optics and scopes galore on rifles that spent the whole time sitting on the benchrest while shooting.

My point is...if you are going to spend the money on that stuff, use it to it's potential. Those guys had the equipment to outshoot me at 200 yards and they never pushed themselves to see what their gear could do. BUT it sure looked cool. IMHO it would have looked cooler at 200 yards.

Maybe the knew what they were capable of at 200yds and didn't want to embarass themselves. I know my Remmy will shoot better than I can but that doesn't stop me from trying.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I sometimes refer to it as "tack tickle." By that I mean those folk who believe that the trigger on a firearm simply cannot be pulled until it has at least twice the original cost of the original platform bolted on in the form of various accessories. It has to meet some idea of what a given sort of firearm is SPOZED to look like before it can ever be fired the first time, you understand.

I see it most among the shotgun crowd, probably some in other camps feel the same way. Shotgun forum moderator Dave McC has tee shirts made up with the acronym BA/UU/R, a common refrain over there. It stands for 'Buy ammo, use up, repeat.' Of course that assumes someone actually wants to learn to SHOOT, as opposed to passively accumulating kewl points by spending money on fuzzy dice and fender skirts.

lpl/nc (run what helps you shoot better)

 

[TechBrute]

By that I mean those folk who believe that the trigger on a firearm simply cannot be pulled until it has at least twice the original cost of the original platform bolted on in the form of various accessories.

Oh good, another "enlightened" member who thinks that there should be some correlation between the cost of a firearms and the cost of the add-on.