So a while ago my wife bought me some 9mm lead Speer 124gr RN bullets and they were just a mess in my CZ75 barrel and not very accurate anyway. They left a very sour taste in my mouth as far as lead is concerned but now I'm told that Speer lead bullets aren't really cast, they are swagged and don't have the same properties, i.e. they are softer and will lead a barrel more easily. Am I being too hard on lead bullets? Should I give them another shot? I hear too many reports of inconsistencies in the thickness of plated bullets to be happy with them but Zero bullets are about the same price as lead anyway so maybe thats the way to go. What do you all think? Any other good affordable options? My best loads have come from the bagged Winchester 124gr FMJs BTW. Thanks.
Have I not really tried "lead" bullets?
- Thread starter layusn1
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ReloaderFred
Member
Swaged bullets are generally pretty soft, and in most cases, will lead if driven very hard. To give lead bullets a fair trial, I'd suggest trying some from Oregon Trail, Meister, or one of the other large cast bullet companies. There are also many local commercial casters that make quality bullets. If you can find a local commercial caster, that would save you shipping.
For the most part, I cast my own, except for Cowboy Action, where the volume for my wife and I is impossible for me to keep up with. Between us, we shoot many thousands of rounds per year in just this one activity alone, and it's all cast bullets. We shot True Grit over Memorial Day weekend and between us we shoot a little over 1,000 rounds of cast bullets in two days. Leading in our guns was minimal.
Hope this helps.
Fred
For the most part, I cast my own, except for Cowboy Action, where the volume for my wife and I is impossible for me to keep up with. Between us, we shoot many thousands of rounds per year in just this one activity alone, and it's all cast bullets. We shot True Grit over Memorial Day weekend and between us we shoot a little over 1,000 rounds of cast bullets in two days. Leading in our guns was minimal.
Hope this helps.
Fred
snuffy
Member
Those speer bullets are nearly pure lead. They also have no lube grooves, so they are just coated with a basic wax, they lead badly at even modest velocity.
Hard cast lead bullets have ample lube grooves, and the use of a quality bullet lube almost eliminates leading. They can be driven to the max that a 9mm will go to without leading.
I'm using this mold to cast the 9mm 124 gr. truncated cone tumble lube bullet.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=340779
I shoot these in my 357 sig,(KKM), conversion barrel in my M-22 glock. Not sure of the velocity, but it's well above what the 9mm could do, NO LEADING! That's with lee liquid alox and the lee .356 push through sizer.
So, no, you haven't tried lead bullets----YET!
Hard cast lead bullets have ample lube grooves, and the use of a quality bullet lube almost eliminates leading. They can be driven to the max that a 9mm will go to without leading.
I'm using this mold to cast the 9mm 124 gr. truncated cone tumble lube bullet.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=340779
I shoot these in my 357 sig,(KKM), conversion barrel in my M-22 glock. Not sure of the velocity, but it's well above what the 9mm could do, NO LEADING! That's with lee liquid alox and the lee .356 push through sizer.
So, no, you haven't tried lead bullets----YET!
Shoney
Member
The key words in choosing lead bullets are "hard cast"! When “lead bullets” are to be used, especially in semi-auto pistols, they must be “hard cast lead bullets” with Brinell hardness 19 or higher. Any alloy of lead with a Brinell harness less than 19 runs higher chances of leading the barrel.
Some powders burn hotter temperatures than others and can increase leading. Shooting lead at the higher velocities usually associated with jacketed bullets can increase leading. Overcrimping lead bullets can cause distortions which give inaccurate loads.
I have shot many thousands of hard cast bullets in a wide variety of pistols and find them to be very accurate.
Yes, give them another try, but read up on the basics of loading lead.
Some powders burn hotter temperatures than others and can increase leading. Shooting lead at the higher velocities usually associated with jacketed bullets can increase leading. Overcrimping lead bullets can cause distortions which give inaccurate loads.
I have shot many thousands of hard cast bullets in a wide variety of pistols and find them to be very accurate.
Yes, give them another try, but read up on the basics of loading lead.
scott5
Member
Layusn1,
What ReloaderFred said.
Back when I started shooting lead in my 9mm's and 357's I got a little bit of leading and it was a pain to clean it out.
So what I did was drop some bullets in MICA (a white dry lubricant)
and shoot them.
It takes about 500 rounds in each barrel to do the trick.
Now I can shoot lead at jacketed speeds without leading.
I hope this helps.
What ReloaderFred said.
Back when I started shooting lead in my 9mm's and 357's I got a little bit of leading and it was a pain to clean it out.
So what I did was drop some bullets in MICA (a white dry lubricant)
and shoot them.
It takes about 500 rounds in each barrel to do the trick.
Now I can shoot lead at jacketed speeds without leading.
I hope this helps.
alucard0822
Member
I have always had the best luck with oregon trail hardcast in large and slow calibers, like 45colt, 45acp, 44sp and the like. I have also had very good luck with rainier plated bullets, they even seem to shoot better in my 45 kimber than FMJ winchesters do,and I get similar results in a 4" 686 with 158gr rnfp over about 6gr of bullseye and 124gr RN over 6.7gr of hs-6 in a 92FS. the only jacketed bullets I ever buy anymore are XTP's for use over H110 (4th of july loads) and 124gr fmj for use in my dad's poly rifled G19 and USP (seems to shoot the jacketed much better than plated).
The trick with lead is to use slower powders to get higher velocities without leading, hot and fast loads burn them up, the slower loads seem to help stabilize them in the rifling better and foul the barrel no worse than FMJ after abvout 250 rounds and a long day of running targets, a swipe or two with the boresnake and it's like new again, if anything it seems like a good lead load actually sweeps out the powder fouling that FMJ builds up on the sides of the grooves.
) and 124gr fmj for use in my dad's poly rifled G19 and USP (seems to shoot the jacketed much better than plated).The trick with lead is to use slower powders to get higher velocities without leading, hot and fast loads burn them up, the slower loads seem to help stabilize them in the rifling better and foul the barrel no worse than FMJ after abvout 250 rounds and a long day of running targets, a swipe or two with the boresnake and it's like new again, if anything it seems like a good lead load actually sweeps out the powder fouling that FMJ builds up on the sides of the grooves.
RoadkingLarry
Member
I've also found that speer lead bullets also tend to be undersized for most bores. Trying to shoot a soft lead bullet sized to .357 in a .38/.357 WILL result in a leaded bore.
Lead bullets is a whole issue of hardness, velocity and pressures. Too hard at low velocity and low pressure will lead like too soft at too high a pressure and velocity. Match the bullet to the job. Speer lead bullets are great for the .38 spl, .45 acp and sub 1000 fps loads in any cartridge with pressures around 16000 to 18000 psi. For magnum loads or high pressure cartridges like the 9mm or .40 s&w using lead, you need a harder bullet with good lube. I once read that if you take the BHN (Brinell hardness) and multiply it by 2,700 you get the minimum pressure you need to run the bullet at to get proper sealing in the bore and to avoild leading. Perhaps someone has the correct numbers and formula. After years of on and off success with lead bullets I finally had an epiphany.
I used to get terrible leading when using hard cast bullets in the .38 spl and low velocity .357 mag. Now I only use Speer or Hornady in the .38 spl. After reading the article I loaded some of these same cast bullets up to magnum velocity and pressure (1,286 fps from a 4" barrel revolver chrono'd) and the leading dissapeared.
I used to get terrible leading when using hard cast bullets in the .38 spl and low velocity .357 mag. Now I only use Speer or Hornady in the .38 spl. After reading the article I loaded some of these same cast bullets up to magnum velocity and pressure (1,286 fps from a 4" barrel revolver chrono'd) and the leading dissapeared.
wcwhitey
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 2,814
Steve C has some very good points, sometimes it is just trial and error. I have always been fine with most anybody's hardcast bullets in the .44 special, when I moved to magnums I got lead. The specials were always running around 850 fps using Unique. A clean super accurate loading that left no lead that a patch could not take care of and the bullets could be fairly soft like 12 BHN. Then when I would shift to the old standby of 10 grains of Unique behind the same bullet in a magnum case and the barrel would lead really fast beginning at the throat. After some reading and experimenting I came to the conclussion that the Unique I was using was just too fast burning and hot that when I turned up the pressure it would litterally burn the tails off the bullets. Turning to slower burning powders like 2400 gave me much less leading with hard cast bullets, there was some leading but nothing a basic cleaning could not take care of. Also I try to buy my bullets .001 larger like .430 instead of .429. A better seal in the barrel throat area will give less blow by and help the situation. Any of the current hardcast bullets are fine for .38/.44 spec/.45 Colt and .45 ACP pressure even with fast burning powders, leading should not be a problem. I was told that most of the major suppliers load to at least a 16 BHN for packaging and transportation purposes. For .357's I tend to just go with jacketed bullets for full power loads as this is an area were even plated bullets will start to break down at velocity. Bottom line is cast and hard cast bullets are accurate and economical. They are not for all situations but if the time is taken to develope good clean accurate loads and components are then bought in bulk they will save you alot of money and shoot circles around most factory loadings. LOL Bill
You have to match bullet hardness to the pressures and velocities you are shooting. Sounds much worse than it is. Try some hard cast bullets in your 9mm at around 1100 to 1200 and you should be fine. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error, but it is easily done.
I shot most any commercial cast, and home cast, bullets in my .45 for years with virtually no leading. The .45 is ideal for cast bullets, but you can make them work in any pistol caliber with a little research.
Cast Boolits is where many on this board reccommend for answers to loading lead bullets. I learned from books back before we had the internet.
Any luck chasing down my .40 brass yet?
I shot most any commercial cast, and home cast, bullets in my .45 for years with virtually no leading. The .45 is ideal for cast bullets, but you can make them work in any pistol caliber with a little research.
Cast Boolits is where many on this board reccommend for answers to loading lead bullets. I learned from books back before we had the internet.
Any luck chasing down my .40 brass yet?
CZ57
member
This is where a Lyman manual can really help. Very few have covered these issues like Lyman has over the years. Steve C has me curious and a BHN formula would be very handy as a quick reference. SAECO uses another hardness rating that is different from BHN, with 10 being very hard and suitable for higher velocity.
The way I learned is that swaged bullets shouldn't be pushed above 1000 FPS. In other words, keep your loads subsonic and 900 FPS as a velocity limit is an even better idea. This is why Lyman created their #2 alloy which is 15 BHN, but very high magnum revolver velocities demanded something harder yet and heat treating cast lead and using Linotype became the remedy to prevent significant leading.
I don't use a lot of cast bullets in 9mm, but when I have, they have been Oregon Trails/LaserCast. BHN is the hardest you'll find and OT rates them at 26. I haven't found many cases where the OT bullets couldn't be used as a substitute for a FMJ bullet for similar velocity, but you will need to reduce the powder charge to a level appropriate for the cast bullet you use. I have never got into plated bullets for that reason, and I don't buy FMJ. JHPs and hard cast lead cover my needs. Slug your bore and use hard cast bullets that are .001" above the measured slug diameter. There are other issues if you want to get a bit more precise with revolver loads, but basically, this is a pretty good rule of thumb. CZs typically have very good rifling and do well with hardcast bullets.
http://www.laser-cast.com/ they will send you a free sample pack ( around 10 bullets I think ) of the style you like.
The way I learned is that swaged bullets shouldn't be pushed above 1000 FPS. In other words, keep your loads subsonic and 900 FPS as a velocity limit is an even better idea. This is why Lyman created their #2 alloy which is 15 BHN, but very high magnum revolver velocities demanded something harder yet and heat treating cast lead and using Linotype became the remedy to prevent significant leading.
I don't use a lot of cast bullets in 9mm, but when I have, they have been Oregon Trails/LaserCast. BHN is the hardest you'll find and OT rates them at 26. I haven't found many cases where the OT bullets couldn't be used as a substitute for a FMJ bullet for similar velocity, but you will need to reduce the powder charge to a level appropriate for the cast bullet you use. I have never got into plated bullets for that reason, and I don't buy FMJ. JHPs and hard cast lead cover my needs. Slug your bore and use hard cast bullets that are .001" above the measured slug diameter. There are other issues if you want to get a bit more precise with revolver loads, but basically, this is a pretty good rule of thumb. CZs typically have very good rifling and do well with hardcast bullets.
http://www.laser-cast.com/ they will send you a free sample pack ( around 10 bullets I think ) of the style you like.
People, people. Good grief.
The way to get satisfactory cast-bullet performance is to MAKE YOUR OWN. Buying them is simply not a satisfactory way to put them to efficent and enjoyable use.
If you do so in an intelligent manner, most of the above comments on this thread simply do not apply.
For example, straight wheelweight alloy, UNhardened, probably about BHN12, will work beautifully in magnum-level revolver loads, meaning up to 1500 fps, WITHOUT "LEADING", and with excellent accuracy. As another example, my Ruger .416 Rigby has fired good groups at 100 yards with PURE LEAD bullets traveling over 2000 fps, properly-sized and lubricated with quality bullet lube. This was just a quick experiment, in connection with some other research I was running....but the fact remains that the pure-lead bullets did work.
Bullet hardness is praised by many folks as the "solution" to leading, when in fact it actually contributes to INCREASED leading in many cases. This is due to the reluctance of a hard bullet to "bump up" in size under moderate pressure, and also it's the reason that most hard-cast bullets shoot best in heavy loads, where the pressure is sufficient to cause the bullet to expand for proper obturation (sealing) of the bore against combustion gases....those gases are the major cause of leading, when they can get past the sides of the bullet and melt portions of it.
Proper bullet fit to the firearm is the secret to success. A very good rule of thumb is to use the LARGEST-DIAMETER cast bullet that will still allow the loaded round to be chambered in YOUR firearm, rifle or handgun. Guess what? The only way you'll determine that diameter is to cast your own bullets and experiment with increasing diameters. I'm loading for four S&W .357 Magnums, dating from 1955 to the 1990s, and ALL of them will happily accept bullets sized at .359", loaded in R-P or W-W brass. All four shoot accurately with max loads with air-cooled WW bullets, no gaschecks, and without any trace of leading, at speeds up to 1400 fps or more. The same applies to my .41 and .44 revolvers, but I don't own quite as many examples of those calibers.
Watching eBay listings, it's apparent to me that the vast majority of handloaders are unaware of the above. Why? Simply because when we see listings of bullet-sizing dies for sale, they are almost always the "accepted" diameter for the caliber.... .355" for 9mm, .357" for the .38/.357, .429" for the .44s, and so on. It's no wonder so many people give up on cast bullets and regret ever trying them.
There are also many moulds on the market which cast bullets that are almost doomed to fail. These moulds are undersize, and their bullets rarely will adequately seal a barrel against the gases. Such designs usually are known in cast-bullet circles, and some research can indicate which designs to buy, and which ones aren't recommended.
I'm loading a couple dozen different calibers with cast bullets, but here are some guidelines which work for my guns:
-in any .30-caliber rifle, I start load development with .311" bullets (and usually stay with that diameter...it works!)
-in .303/7.62x39 and 7.62x54, my first try is with .315". I have a Ruger 77 in 7.62x39, and it dotes on .313" bullets (bore diameter .3105")
-in 9mm, I use four different pistols, and all will work fine with .357", NO leading.
-in .357 Magnum/.38 Special, .359" gets the nod as mentioned earlier, except in our S&W M52 .38 autos, which seem to be barreled to 9mm specs...they get .357" bullets and shoot sub-ten-ring (3.39", standard NRA slow-fire target) TEN-shot groups at 50 yards.
-in .44 magnum, all the bullets are sized at .432", for both S&W and Ruger guns. Speeds in some loads are over 1500 in the 7.5" Super Blackhawks, UNhardened wheelweight alloy, NO leading.
-in .45 ACP, I follow tradition and go with .452", which works nicely in several different-make pistols.
.416 Rigby gets .417", but I'm going to try .419" in the near future. In the .45-70 (Shiloh Sharps), bore diameter .4575", I shoot .459-.462" bullets.
These are just a few examples. ALL shoot without leading, and even after hundreds of rounds without cleaning, my M1A and Garands, for example, have sparkling bores and NO LEAD IN THE GAS SYSTEMS, either.
It's a complicated subject, bullet casting, and it will really reward those who are willing to spend a bit of time in studying available info. The more we know, the better our results....and the more questions we dream up!
The way to get satisfactory cast-bullet performance is to MAKE YOUR OWN. Buying them is simply not a satisfactory way to put them to efficent and enjoyable use.
If you do so in an intelligent manner, most of the above comments on this thread simply do not apply.
For example, straight wheelweight alloy, UNhardened, probably about BHN12, will work beautifully in magnum-level revolver loads, meaning up to 1500 fps, WITHOUT "LEADING", and with excellent accuracy. As another example, my Ruger .416 Rigby has fired good groups at 100 yards with PURE LEAD bullets traveling over 2000 fps, properly-sized and lubricated with quality bullet lube. This was just a quick experiment, in connection with some other research I was running....but the fact remains that the pure-lead bullets did work.
Bullet hardness is praised by many folks as the "solution" to leading, when in fact it actually contributes to INCREASED leading in many cases. This is due to the reluctance of a hard bullet to "bump up" in size under moderate pressure, and also it's the reason that most hard-cast bullets shoot best in heavy loads, where the pressure is sufficient to cause the bullet to expand for proper obturation (sealing) of the bore against combustion gases....those gases are the major cause of leading, when they can get past the sides of the bullet and melt portions of it.
Proper bullet fit to the firearm is the secret to success. A very good rule of thumb is to use the LARGEST-DIAMETER cast bullet that will still allow the loaded round to be chambered in YOUR firearm, rifle or handgun. Guess what? The only way you'll determine that diameter is to cast your own bullets and experiment with increasing diameters. I'm loading for four S&W .357 Magnums, dating from 1955 to the 1990s, and ALL of them will happily accept bullets sized at .359", loaded in R-P or W-W brass. All four shoot accurately with max loads with air-cooled WW bullets, no gaschecks, and without any trace of leading, at speeds up to 1400 fps or more. The same applies to my .41 and .44 revolvers, but I don't own quite as many examples of those calibers.
Watching eBay listings, it's apparent to me that the vast majority of handloaders are unaware of the above. Why? Simply because when we see listings of bullet-sizing dies for sale, they are almost always the "accepted" diameter for the caliber.... .355" for 9mm, .357" for the .38/.357, .429" for the .44s, and so on. It's no wonder so many people give up on cast bullets and regret ever trying them.
There are also many moulds on the market which cast bullets that are almost doomed to fail. These moulds are undersize, and their bullets rarely will adequately seal a barrel against the gases. Such designs usually are known in cast-bullet circles, and some research can indicate which designs to buy, and which ones aren't recommended.
I'm loading a couple dozen different calibers with cast bullets, but here are some guidelines which work for my guns:
-in any .30-caliber rifle, I start load development with .311" bullets (and usually stay with that diameter...it works!)
-in .303/7.62x39 and 7.62x54, my first try is with .315". I have a Ruger 77 in 7.62x39, and it dotes on .313" bullets (bore diameter .3105")
-in 9mm, I use four different pistols, and all will work fine with .357", NO leading.
-in .357 Magnum/.38 Special, .359" gets the nod as mentioned earlier, except in our S&W M52 .38 autos, which seem to be barreled to 9mm specs...they get .357" bullets and shoot sub-ten-ring (3.39", standard NRA slow-fire target) TEN-shot groups at 50 yards.
-in .44 magnum, all the bullets are sized at .432", for both S&W and Ruger guns. Speeds in some loads are over 1500 in the 7.5" Super Blackhawks, UNhardened wheelweight alloy, NO leading.
-in .45 ACP, I follow tradition and go with .452", which works nicely in several different-make pistols.
.416 Rigby gets .417", but I'm going to try .419" in the near future. In the .45-70 (Shiloh Sharps), bore diameter .4575", I shoot .459-.462" bullets.
These are just a few examples. ALL shoot without leading, and even after hundreds of rounds without cleaning, my M1A and Garands, for example, have sparkling bores and NO LEAD IN THE GAS SYSTEMS, either.
It's a complicated subject, bullet casting, and it will really reward those who are willing to spend a bit of time in studying available info. The more we know, the better our results....and the more questions we dream up!
wcwhitey
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 2,814
Bruce, good information. I totally agree with your information regarding bullet hardness and "slugging up". Leading can be devided into two catagories, lube issues and pressure (blow by)issues. Leading in the throat and beginnings of the barrel and you have high pressure, blow by when the bullet refuses to slug up whether by being too small or too hard. Leading in the end of the barrel is a lube issue. A moderate to soft lead bullet 12-16 BHN will fit 90% of most peoples loads as long as they are properly lubed. Problem is that most commercial bullets are 16+ and will not "slug up" like you mention. This is one area that the commercial casters have led us to believe that harder is better. Like I mentioned in my last post about making the bullets harder for packaging and shipping purposes there is also the fact that some casters buy their lead in lots and the hardness is dictated to the them by the bullet lead suppliers. The buy it, melt it and cast it. I will say that I would love to get into casting myself and experiment like you do, might be a good hobby for retirement. Thanks for the post and info! Bill
Handloader magazine put out the "Handloaders Bullet Making Annual" I & II in 1990 and 1991. They also had a third in 92, but is was not very usefull. The first two are CRAMMED full of usefull information on making your own bullets, concentrating on cast bullets. Mine are yellow from age. If you are serious about learning to cast your own or load cast bullets these two books will tell you absolutely everything you need to know. They may still be available. I don't know.
They give a chart for BHN vs pressure which gives the "yield strength" of an alloy by hardness on the BHN scale.
(Yield Strength = where it upsets enough to fill the bore or throat)
BHN 5 = 7110 YS
BHN 6 = 8532 YS
BHN 7 = 9954 YS
BHN 8 = 11376 YS
BHN 9 = 12798 YS
BHN 10 = 14220 YS
BHN 11 = 15642 YS
BHN 12 = 17064 YS
BHN 13 = 18486 YS
BHN 14 = 19908 YS
BHN 15 = 21330 YS
BHN 16 = 22752 YS
This gives us an idea of where we need to start with our alloy or our store bought cast bullets for a certain caliber/load level.
They cover paper patched bullets, pure lead bullets at 1945 FPS, lubrication, Super Grex, wax gas checks, heat treating cast bullets, alloys, sizing (revolver vs auto), gas checks, leading and what causes different types, molds, casting, loading, cast bullets in rifles, etc. etc......... Real good stuff.
They give a chart for BHN vs pressure which gives the "yield strength" of an alloy by hardness on the BHN scale.
(Yield Strength = where it upsets enough to fill the bore or throat)
BHN 5 = 7110 YS
BHN 6 = 8532 YS
BHN 7 = 9954 YS
BHN 8 = 11376 YS
BHN 9 = 12798 YS
BHN 10 = 14220 YS
BHN 11 = 15642 YS
BHN 12 = 17064 YS
BHN 13 = 18486 YS
BHN 14 = 19908 YS
BHN 15 = 21330 YS
BHN 16 = 22752 YS
This gives us an idea of where we need to start with our alloy or our store bought cast bullets for a certain caliber/load level.
They cover paper patched bullets, pure lead bullets at 1945 FPS, lubrication, Super Grex, wax gas checks, heat treating cast bullets, alloys, sizing (revolver vs auto), gas checks, leading and what causes different types, molds, casting, loading, cast bullets in rifles, etc. etc......... Real good stuff.
CZ57
member
BruceB: How many .416 Rigby rounds do you fire in one sitting? I don't think anyone was saying that the hardest alloy is always the way to go. matching BHN to the velocity is a sound approach if the bullet is properly sized for the bore. And, how many posters mentioned that they are casters? I appreciate your passion for casting, but let's remember that a good many are just cranking out their first handloads.
You have me wondering why Lyman would even have bothered to develop the #2 alloy (15 BHN) if all we needed to do is follow the tack you've plotted. I have never seen recommendations for sizing more than .002" over bore diameter for pistols. You didn't mention slugging the bore, or that a powder charge needs to be reduced as you increase diameter.
1500 FPS with wheelweight alloy? Evidently, Lyman needs to have you consulting. I ain't fixin' to start pushing an alloy that soft to that velocity. Kinda makes me wonder how many pistol rounds you shoot in one sitting, if you're not getting any leading at 1500 FPS in a magnum revolver with wheelweight alloy. How many of these rounds have you fired in one sitting?
Let's remember what the original question was, a 124 gr. 9mm in a CZ 75. Your advice may be sound if the shooter is going to stop shooting after 10 rounds.
We can get into obturation, or revolver throats and make things about twice as complicated as they need to be. The question at hand is a pistol load that, if layusn1 is like most of us, he's probably going to put about a hundred or so rounds downrange in one session. Why not tell him how many times you've done this with your prescribed method at 1500 FPS, with a number of rounds fired.
I think Steve C hit the nail on the head. If you're going to buy cast lead bullets, understand that the alloy, or BHN needs to match the desired velocity you're going to be shooting them at. Under 900 FPS, swaged will work fine when bullets are appropriately sized, and slightly larger diameter to insure obturation, may be the ticket for a low velocity bullseye load. I don't find that anything above 18 BHN is necessary, but I don't get blow by problems, or leading when I push the OT bullets to 1500 FPS or higher. I don't get them from copper and brass jacketed bullets that have even higher BHN values. All kinds of topics can jump in here, but I will mention that the very hard alloys do have the potential for bullets to fragment before the desired depth of penetration is reached on some bigger game animals. SO Don't go taking broadside shots at elephants with the 124 gr. 9mm Lasercast bullet!
BTW, what do you do with an Elephant that has three balls? . . . Walk him, and pitch to the Rhino!
I don't seem to have the leading problems that many seem to get into. I slug the bore of a pistol. I try to buy bullets that are sized to .001" over bore diameter. I don't cast anymore because I had a melanoma dug out of my back that was deeper than the anesthetic penetrated when the surgeons scalpel dug into my back. I'm not saying that it resulted from casting, and please heed the advice for proper ventilition if you do. I did, but to me, it's about like saying you should only smoke cigarettes in a well ventilated area. A carcinogen, is still a carcinogen. So let me take this oppurtunity to recommend something that hasn't been mentioned. In fact, I haven't seen it mention in a single thread on cast bullets. Buy those rubber gloves at Wally-World and wear them when you are loading lead bullets of any kind. I like the moly coated variety for this reason, but unfortunately, I don't have a good affordable source at the moment. Another reason I like the 26 Brinnell of the LaserCast bullets. Less lead particulates floating around in the air!
Those Yield strength numbers are great, Walkalong, but they'd be better with accompanying velocity level recommendations.
You have me wondering why Lyman would even have bothered to develop the #2 alloy (15 BHN) if all we needed to do is follow the tack you've plotted. I have never seen recommendations for sizing more than .002" over bore diameter for pistols. You didn't mention slugging the bore, or that a powder charge needs to be reduced as you increase diameter.
1500 FPS with wheelweight alloy? Evidently, Lyman needs to have you consulting. I ain't fixin' to start pushing an alloy that soft to that velocity. Kinda makes me wonder how many pistol rounds you shoot in one sitting, if you're not getting any leading at 1500 FPS in a magnum revolver with wheelweight alloy. How many of these rounds have you fired in one sitting?
Let's remember what the original question was, a 124 gr. 9mm in a CZ 75. Your advice may be sound if the shooter is going to stop shooting after 10 rounds.
We can get into obturation, or revolver throats and make things about twice as complicated as they need to be. The question at hand is a pistol load that, if layusn1 is like most of us, he's probably going to put about a hundred or so rounds downrange in one session. Why not tell him how many times you've done this with your prescribed method at 1500 FPS, with a number of rounds fired.
I think Steve C hit the nail on the head. If you're going to buy cast lead bullets, understand that the alloy, or BHN needs to match the desired velocity you're going to be shooting them at. Under 900 FPS, swaged will work fine when bullets are appropriately sized, and slightly larger diameter to insure obturation, may be the ticket for a low velocity bullseye load. I don't find that anything above 18 BHN is necessary, but I don't get blow by problems, or leading when I push the OT bullets to 1500 FPS or higher. I don't get them from copper and brass jacketed bullets that have even higher BHN values. All kinds of topics can jump in here, but I will mention that the very hard alloys do have the potential for bullets to fragment before the desired depth of penetration is reached on some bigger game animals. SO Don't go taking broadside shots at elephants with the 124 gr. 9mm Lasercast bullet!
BTW, what do you do with an Elephant that has three balls? . . . Walk him, and pitch to the Rhino!
I don't seem to have the leading problems that many seem to get into. I slug the bore of a pistol. I try to buy bullets that are sized to .001" over bore diameter. I don't cast anymore because I had a melanoma dug out of my back that was deeper than the anesthetic penetrated when the surgeons scalpel dug into my back. I'm not saying that it resulted from casting, and please heed the advice for proper ventilition if you do. I did, but to me, it's about like saying you should only smoke cigarettes in a well ventilated area. A carcinogen, is still a carcinogen. So let me take this oppurtunity to recommend something that hasn't been mentioned. In fact, I haven't seen it mention in a single thread on cast bullets. Buy those rubber gloves at Wally-World and wear them when you are loading lead bullets of any kind. I like the moly coated variety for this reason, but unfortunately, I don't have a good affordable source at the moment. Another reason I like the 26 Brinnell of the LaserCast bullets. Less lead particulates floating around in the air!
Those Yield strength numbers are great, Walkalong, but they'd be better with accompanying velocity level recommendations.
fecmech
Member
CZ--1500fps is no big deal with WW alloy, really! It's done all the time. I've been casting since the early 70's and primarily magnum handguns in the beginning. I've run literally thousands of 173 gr. cast bullets out of a number of .357's in the 1300fps range with no leading at all and excellent accuracy. I don't clean my handgun barrels because there is nothing but a light coat of bullet lube in there when I'm done shooting. There has not been a patch or brush in the bores of any of my revolvers for years and I shoot at least a couple times per week on my property. The cylinders get brushed out when they get dirty but the bores are always clean and require no care.
Bruce is right, casting your own gives you the control over your size and the lube used and I'm with him on the idea of bigger is usually better. If you buy your bullets you may or may not have good results. If loading for the .45 auto almost no one has trouble with commercial bullets, same with .38 wadcutters. Those are not very demanding environments for cast bullets. When you start loading magnums like the .357, .44 or the high perfromance autos like the .40 or the 9mm it's a different story. Instead of 12-15k psi pressures you are working in the 30 to 40K psi range and thats where size, lube and hardness can be critical.
Jump in the water is fine, cast your own, it's a great hobby and learning experience. There is nothing more satisfying than shooting nice small 50 yd groups out of a handgun when you 've made the bullets and put the whole package together yourself.
Bruce is right, casting your own gives you the control over your size and the lube used and I'm with him on the idea of bigger is usually better. If you buy your bullets you may or may not have good results. If loading for the .45 auto almost no one has trouble with commercial bullets, same with .38 wadcutters. Those are not very demanding environments for cast bullets. When you start loading magnums like the .357, .44 or the high perfromance autos like the .40 or the 9mm it's a different story. Instead of 12-15k psi pressures you are working in the 30 to 40K psi range and thats where size, lube and hardness can be critical.
Jump in the water is fine, cast your own, it's a great hobby and learning experience. There is nothing more satisfying than shooting nice small 50 yd groups out of a handgun when you 've made the bullets and put the whole package together yourself.
Tomcat47
Member
You may want to try using gas checks to keep from leading the barrel. If your fps is reaching near 900-1000 you are probaly getting "meltdown" as we called it before it leaves the barrell. Above was some really in depth info you should copy and paste into MS Word.
Also run some rounds through a chrono to see where you are at. might help also. And we also always made our own lead bullets.
Also run some rounds through a chrono to see where you are at. might help also. And we also always made our own lead bullets.
alucard0822
Member
normally when there is leading in the last couple inches of barell, the bullet is hard enough, but it ran out of lube, especially in rifles/carbines. I have had better luck in rifles with heavier bullets (300gr OT in 44mag lever gun) that have a larger bearing surface and more lube rings, and only resort to gas checks in hotter 45-70 and 30-30 loads.
by mild hp38, how much?, the sweet spot should be between 4 and 4.5 grains in 9mm, too little and you get blowby, too much and you burn it up. another good load with the 124gr lead is 4.5-5gr of bullseye
by mild hp38, how much?, the sweet spot should be between 4 and 4.5 grains in 9mm, too little and you get blowby, too much and you burn it up. another good load with the 124gr lead is 4.5-5gr of bullseye
Sorry for the delay in getting back on this thread; I had business in Reno which took me away for the day.
CZ makes some excellent observations and raises questions which deserve answers.
His "How many Rigby rounds do you fire in one sitting?" raises a point already addressed by fecmech to a degree. The number of rounds "at a sitting" is immaterial, because I don't clean the guns once the desirable "conditioning" of the bore has been achieved. I haven't cleaned the bore of that 'Ruger Rigby' in several years, and at least several hundred rounds have been fired in that period. The Garands and M1A STILL haven't had the barrels cleaned; the actions and gas systems, yes, but not the bores, which are nicley conditioned after many hundreds of rounds.
The same applies to most other rifles and handguns here. If a gun gets wet afield, then certainly it gets thoroughly gone through. Otherwise? Nope! Sacreligious, maybe, but that bore-conditioning is important. It's worth mentioning too, that BEFORE firing a single cast bullet, ALL copper fouling absolutely must be removed from a barrel with a good copper solvent, before using lead bullets. Also, a light coat of bullet lube on the clean bore surface before firing the first lead bullet is a good idea....many of us suspect that the lube on a bullet is rather important for the NEXT bullet to go down the barrel.
Lyman created the #2 alloy over 50 years ago. Their "most recent" Cast Bullet Handbook" is TWENTY-SEVEN years old! Vast changes have occurred in the field over that three-decade period, and Lyman is far behind the times with that handbook. It still contains valuable info, but much of the book is outdated. A new one is in the works, I hear.
If someone is "just starting out", why not start out RIGHT, without a lot of old wives' tales and myths?
Again, I'll state that the LARGEST DIAMETER that will chamber easily is the best place to start experimenting in a cast load. Cast bullets are NOT the same as jacketed bullets, and they will adapt to their environment very easily. The ideal situation in a revolver is a bullet a bit larger than the chamber throats, which in turn should be somewhat larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. This ensures proper sealing of the gases for the full travel of the bullet through the gun. The proper working-up of the load eliminates concerns about over-pressure, and these same "over-sized" bullets can be driven FASTER than equal-weight jacketed bullets in most cases.
If CZ hasn't seen recommendations for sizing .002 (or more) over groove diameter, he's not paying enough attention. I have a .404 Jeffery rifle with groove diameter of .4185", which shoots very well (and WITHOUT leading) with bullets of .424" diameter. Research by Speer has demonstrated that the highest pressure in revolvers is reached before the bullet exits the cylinder...bullet diameter has very little effect in that area of the gun. It is now routine in active bullet-casting circles to use maximum-throat-size bullets, even if it means basically ignoring the actual groove diameter of the barrel.
The 9mms I shoot with .357 diameter have gone upwards of 1000 consecutive rounds without leading. (My Ruger P89 on a weekend-long defensive course some years ago fired 1200 cast-bullet rounds flawlessly, with no cleaning of ANY description....what a filthy gun THAT was!). Not exactly quitting "after 10 rounds", is it?
If it's not necessary to complicate a new caster's life with what I initially wrote, it's sure as blazes not necessary to over-complicate the whole procedure for him with "yield strength", or "hardness vs velocity" and other such arcane stuff. I have had linotype bullets fracture on game a couple times, so don't use such bullets in the field these days. Again, wheelweights do fine. My wife once cleanly killed a bull moose with two "soft" cast bullets from a Super Blackhawk, in a rather dicey situation.
I load for rifles, revolvers and autopistols, including some blackpowder along the way as well. About 95% of my needs are met with simple wheelweight alloy, sometimes water-quenched to boost the hardness for rifles, sometimes not. My Magnum revolvers DO shoot unhardened WW bullets to 1500+ fps without leading (or cleaning). My rifles DO shoot hundreds of rounds of water-quenched WW bullets consecutively, without leading (or cleaning). My M70 .338 can put TEN cast bullets in 15/16" from 100 yards, and that M1A has grouped ten cast rounds in 0.60" from 50 yards with iron sights...with 4831 powder! Now, tell me that 4831 is totally the 'wrong' powder (and it IS wrong, if we're speaking of jacketed bullets), and I'll repeat that cast bullets are DIFFERENT from jacketed, and require different techniques.
After forty years of casting, and some pretty serious research along the way with my own guns, not just "somebody else's books", I find it can be kept pretty simple if it's done right. To this day, I don't have a hardness tester, nor do I need one.
Whatever one is doing, if it works for you, that's great.
BTW, I had a toxicology screen done a couple months ago, and my lead levels are slightly below "normal". I don't wear gloves except when casting, but I do by George wash thoroughly after ANY time spent at the loading bench.
CZ, I'm very sorry to hear of your cancer troubles. My Reno visit yesterday was to see a cancer specialist, and I need an operation within the next two weeks....so I sympathize with your problems. Getting old is a bitch, but better than NOT getting old, I reckon.
CZ makes some excellent observations and raises questions which deserve answers.
His "How many Rigby rounds do you fire in one sitting?" raises a point already addressed by fecmech to a degree. The number of rounds "at a sitting" is immaterial, because I don't clean the guns once the desirable "conditioning" of the bore has been achieved. I haven't cleaned the bore of that 'Ruger Rigby' in several years, and at least several hundred rounds have been fired in that period. The Garands and M1A STILL haven't had the barrels cleaned; the actions and gas systems, yes, but not the bores, which are nicley conditioned after many hundreds of rounds.
The same applies to most other rifles and handguns here. If a gun gets wet afield, then certainly it gets thoroughly gone through. Otherwise? Nope! Sacreligious, maybe, but that bore-conditioning is important. It's worth mentioning too, that BEFORE firing a single cast bullet, ALL copper fouling absolutely must be removed from a barrel with a good copper solvent, before using lead bullets. Also, a light coat of bullet lube on the clean bore surface before firing the first lead bullet is a good idea....many of us suspect that the lube on a bullet is rather important for the NEXT bullet to go down the barrel.
Lyman created the #2 alloy over 50 years ago. Their "most recent" Cast Bullet Handbook" is TWENTY-SEVEN years old! Vast changes have occurred in the field over that three-decade period, and Lyman is far behind the times with that handbook. It still contains valuable info, but much of the book is outdated. A new one is in the works, I hear.
If someone is "just starting out", why not start out RIGHT, without a lot of old wives' tales and myths?
Again, I'll state that the LARGEST DIAMETER that will chamber easily is the best place to start experimenting in a cast load. Cast bullets are NOT the same as jacketed bullets, and they will adapt to their environment very easily. The ideal situation in a revolver is a bullet a bit larger than the chamber throats, which in turn should be somewhat larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. This ensures proper sealing of the gases for the full travel of the bullet through the gun. The proper working-up of the load eliminates concerns about over-pressure, and these same "over-sized" bullets can be driven FASTER than equal-weight jacketed bullets in most cases.
If CZ hasn't seen recommendations for sizing .002 (or more) over groove diameter, he's not paying enough attention. I have a .404 Jeffery rifle with groove diameter of .4185", which shoots very well (and WITHOUT leading) with bullets of .424" diameter. Research by Speer has demonstrated that the highest pressure in revolvers is reached before the bullet exits the cylinder...bullet diameter has very little effect in that area of the gun. It is now routine in active bullet-casting circles to use maximum-throat-size bullets, even if it means basically ignoring the actual groove diameter of the barrel.
The 9mms I shoot with .357 diameter have gone upwards of 1000 consecutive rounds without leading. (My Ruger P89 on a weekend-long defensive course some years ago fired 1200 cast-bullet rounds flawlessly, with no cleaning of ANY description....what a filthy gun THAT was!). Not exactly quitting "after 10 rounds", is it?
If it's not necessary to complicate a new caster's life with what I initially wrote, it's sure as blazes not necessary to over-complicate the whole procedure for him with "yield strength", or "hardness vs velocity" and other such arcane stuff. I have had linotype bullets fracture on game a couple times, so don't use such bullets in the field these days. Again, wheelweights do fine. My wife once cleanly killed a bull moose with two "soft" cast bullets from a Super Blackhawk, in a rather dicey situation.
I load for rifles, revolvers and autopistols, including some blackpowder along the way as well. About 95% of my needs are met with simple wheelweight alloy, sometimes water-quenched to boost the hardness for rifles, sometimes not. My Magnum revolvers DO shoot unhardened WW bullets to 1500+ fps without leading (or cleaning). My rifles DO shoot hundreds of rounds of water-quenched WW bullets consecutively, without leading (or cleaning). My M70 .338 can put TEN cast bullets in 15/16" from 100 yards, and that M1A has grouped ten cast rounds in 0.60" from 50 yards with iron sights...with 4831 powder! Now, tell me that 4831 is totally the 'wrong' powder (and it IS wrong, if we're speaking of jacketed bullets), and I'll repeat that cast bullets are DIFFERENT from jacketed, and require different techniques.
After forty years of casting, and some pretty serious research along the way with my own guns, not just "somebody else's books", I find it can be kept pretty simple if it's done right. To this day, I don't have a hardness tester, nor do I need one.
Whatever one is doing, if it works for you, that's great.
BTW, I had a toxicology screen done a couple months ago, and my lead levels are slightly below "normal". I don't wear gloves except when casting, but I do by George wash thoroughly after ANY time spent at the loading bench.
CZ, I'm very sorry to hear of your cancer troubles. My Reno visit yesterday was to see a cancer specialist, and I need an operation within the next two weeks....so I sympathize with your problems. Getting old is a bitch, but better than NOT getting old, I reckon.
snuffy
Member
Stirring the pot sometimes results in great info being brought out.
I started casting around 1973. At first it was for my SBH,(Super BlackHawk), when I got active in handgun silhouette. The only way to improve my skills was to practice a lot, the only way to afford that was to shoot homemade cast boolits! I now have 30+ molds of every description from single cavity to 6 cavity lee's. I have 5 electric pots, a couple that would work over a campfire, and a smelter I have yet to use that goes over a turkey fryer with a 6 quart dutch oven. Just too hot lately to fire that muther up!
I have at least one mold for every rifle, handgun or muzzleloader I own. It's just part of what accessories I get when I purchase a new gun. I have some load developement to do on a couple of guns, then I can rest easy. Range time seems to be too low on my proroities list!
The garden is all planted, now it can just grow!All good info Bruce, I agree 100%. Case in point, on 6-9-07, my son and I went to an IDPA shoot. He used my SA 1911 45 acp, loaded with Lee's 200 RFN cast of wheelweights, lubed with Lee's LLA tumble lube. Sized to .452 over 5.3 WW231. If anyone knows how a shoot like that is done, it's fast and furious. You certainly don't stop to let the barrel cool!
One relay was what's called a bill drill. 6 shots as fast as you can pull the trigger and get back on target, then a reload and another 6. After getting home, the pistol was stripped, the barrel bore was shiny but the rest of the pistol sure was dirty. NO LEADING! The course of fire required 120 shots, the gun had been fired with the same load for practice prior to that, not sure how many, approx 100?Bruce, good luck with that surgery, let us know how it turns out!
Your right. Velocity needs to be taken into consideration as well, but that is a lube issue as well. I wish they had given some guidelines for velocities also, but they did not.
That is generally caused by not enough lube, the wrong lube, or too soft an alloy for the velocity. . Try a different bullet of approximately the same hardness, but with more or a different lube, or a harder bullet. You need a harder bullet.
Leading at the breech is a different story. That can be from too hard an alloy for the pressure, or lack thereof actually.
Right now, I am healthy as a horse according to my Doc. You got me mixed up. I have had friends and family go through it and they are trying times for sure. My mom is a cancer survivor. One of my coaching buddies lost to it. It can be beaten. It happens every day.
scrat
Member
ya im last on the band wagon. However i can tell you what everyone is saying is pretty much the same way. Those speer bullets are junk. i dont even know why they sell them. think of it this way. I shoot 30 cal 30-30 170 grn lead cast bullets. with 18 grains powder. When i gas check them i load them with about 25-28 grains. Very little to NO leading at all. Depends on how they are made. So im sure thats a lot more grains of powder that you are using. You should give them a fair trial. they have only been around for what 300 years or more. With that in mind there are too many places to obtain good lead cast bullets.
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