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Have we lost our marksmanship roots?.....are scopes crutches?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Rembrandt, Jul 22, 2005.

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  1. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    American Children once were skilled in the art of penmanship and spelling....today it's sloppy handwriting, keyboards and spell check.

    As shooters have we also become too dependant on scopes and "dots" only to loose our open sight skills?

    ..... :( guess "wetting the front sights when fix'n to do some serious shoot'n" is a thing of the past.....
    [​IMG]
     
  2. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    I use scopes and red dots - primarily because of old eyes. When younger never had any probs with iron sights tho did prefer aperture/ghost ring set-ups best on long arms.

    I do think even so - a good scope on a quality rifle will add accuracy potential - maybe turn a MOA rifle into 1/2 MOA - some may disagree. I am just glad to have these things! :)
     
  3. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Our firearms are more powerful and accurate, optical devices are part of the evolution of the entire system, allowing us to use that power and accuracy.

    That said, I still appreciate a rifle with iron sights.
     
  4. bogie

    bogie Member

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    What matters, more than any sighting system (unless you're getting downright anal retentive), within 300 yards on deer-sized game, is consistency, wind and terrain reading, and technique.

    FWIW, I shoot benchrest, and I get downright nuts about scopes.
     
  5. MSGT9410

    MSGT9410 Member

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    I'm hardly 16 years old, and I've been called "Grammar Nazi" before. I guess it's because I got really annoyed when reading people's papers in school (something our teachers did; made us read other people's material) and getting angry when I see things such as "lol" and "omg", as well as "you" being replaced simply with "u", on top of the vicious "2" in place of too, to, and so on. :uhoh:

    When it comes to shooting, I personally don't care for using a scope. It's just not my thing I guess. Sure, red dot sights are nifty, but just isn't practical for use by people such as myself...I doubt I'm going to have a need for rapid target aquistion, and if a bad guy comes-a-stormin' into my home, I'll use my trusty Mossberg if it ever comes down to me acutally having to use a weapon to defend myself - and I hope to God it doesn't come to that.
     
  6. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    yeah, we've lost our skills with buggy whips too

    and dang if i can find a doctor who knows how to use leeches either
     
  7. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Scopes do not make shot groups smaller.

    Scopes do not affect hold, trigger squeeze, breath control, or follow through.

    Scopes only make it easier to see a still target, but in fact make it more difficult to see a moving target.

    Scopes are not "marksmanship crutches."

    hillbilly
     
  8. MikeIsaj

    MikeIsaj Member

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    Scopes, Lazers, etc are excellent tools with a place and purpose. I still think basic sighting skills are important because you should never count on technology. Batteries go dead, components fail, scopes get banged up. It's nice to know how to do it without them.

    As I teach my children to shoot, I start them with the basics that includes iron sights.
     
  9. Soap

    Soap Member

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    What hillbilly said. The scope in no way affects marksmanship.
     
  10. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    I dont see how it matters eith way, If you are profiecient with both sights and scope it matter not. Use the tools you have, dont disregard them becuase there just not "The good ol way".
     
  11. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    C'mon! I can barely afford the rifles, now ya wan' me t' buy 'scopes, too? :(
     
  12. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    I belong squarely on that bandwagon. For fun, I use iron sights (just so I can say "I shot such-and-such at X range with iron sights"), and because it's cheaper. Or, for rifles where the accuracy wasn't the prime thing it was built for (SKS anyone?). With modern sporting guns, often times there is no sight system (like on some modern remingtons, or other such things out of my price range). On my rifles where I feel that they are more accurate than I, even with the iron sights provided, then I will mount a scope, in order to maximize the efficiency of each shot (something that is, to me, fun). I might be the oddball for this, I dunno. To each their own. (Oh yeah, for the most part I target shoot, so my aim doesn't need to be quick).
     
  13. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    Scope vs. Iron

    I have to admitt, I was very intimidated by the iron sights on my M14S, but after a little practice I have become downright awesome, even if I do say os myself. A lot of the guys I shoot with also use irons only for combat shooting.

    I still like optics on my hunting rifles, although I use fixed 6X or 4X, the only other scopes I have are on my long range guns and they are very specialized.
     
  14. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    I had a red dot on my Ruger 22/45 for a while, but got bored with it and went back to the really nice target sights. Much more fun.

    I'd probably like it better if the dot didn't cover half the target...
     
  15. Taurus 66

    Taurus 66 Member

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    Scopes enable us to go where iron sights will not. I do not hunt ... well ... at least not yet, if you know what I mean. :evil: There may come a day where I must reach out to 500+ yard distances. I would like a really nice accurate, low light gathering scope to assist me. If the scope malfuntioned or became damaged, it could be easily removed and the iron sights below it would already be set for 0 - 200 yards.
     
  16. rust collector

    rust collector Member

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    I composed a little poem for this occasion:

    You can shoot what you can't see
    but not with any regularity.

    Yes, I can handicap myself any number of ways by using antique rifles, shotguns or bows, but a. I like being able to see where my projectiles are landing and what lies beyond my target, and b. even a prairie dog deserves a humane kill.

    Yes, I have quite a few guns around that do not wear glass, and every huntsafe student of mine learns how to use iron sights just as my kids learned to drive with a manual transmission. Primitive has its place, but the optics add to the fun for me and my aging eyesight.
     
  17. Greg L

    Greg L Member

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    Optics are good to a point. If you don't have the foundation to build the house off of however....

    With my Scout Troop it is single shot .22s with iron sights. You HAVE to reaquire the sight picture after every round. We do want to get them some really good sights but for now the "pumpkin on a post" method is getting them in the general ballpark.

    For my guys I would rather that they learn without any enhancements and then work up to it fwiw.
     
  18. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Wrong.

    I shoot benchrest. If you scope is allowing deviation, either via paralax or via the internals moving around with recoil, your groups _will_ gain enough size that you won't win. Charlie Hood whipped up a nifty little dealie that fits on a sight rail, and holds two scopes. You sight both in on the same spot, then fire a hot recoiling load.

    Then you move the rifle back into battery. Did one of the scopes change position?

    Then you fire a shot using only the right scope. Then the left.

    If the holes are in different spots, you have a problem.

    Some folks are taking perfectly good $500 scopes, and essentially gutting the adjustment, to "freeze" the scopes - turning 'em into something on the order of Unertly's external adjustment scopes. Arnold Jewell (yup, that Jewell...) has been making adjustable rings.

    This isn't likely to affect most of y'all, but I get into it.
     
  19. ACP230

    ACP230 Member

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    I read that the photo of Sgt. Alvin York you posted was an exaggerated publicity shot.

    I use peep sights, scopes and red dots, like them all and have done good shooting with each. I can't do as well with open iron sights on the barrel now, due to eyes that are older than they used to be.
     
  20. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    If I could still see iron sights, I'd shoot them.
     
  21. mattw

    mattw Member

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    i do not think that we have so much lost our "roots" in iron sights, scopes have just become more affordable and less complex so now a wider range of people are able to use them, bringing their rifles and shooting skills to their full potential.
     
  22. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    95% of the shooting I do is with iron sights. The only scoped gun I have is a 10/22 that I put together specifically to shoot an event that required optics.
     
  23. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...I got really annoyed when reading people's papers in school..." MSGT9410, good for you. It's nice to hear from a high school student who knows that proper spelling and grammar is important. The Queen's English gets raped on every forum I post on. Makes me crazy. Using proper spelling and grammar gives credibility. Improper use of the Queen's English makes you look like an illterate twit. If your teachers accept papers with 'u', 'lol', etc, they should be fired.
    "...in place of too, to, and so on..." However, it's to, too and two. Not 'and so on'. Sorry, I'm on your side completely, but just couldn't resist it. Snicker.
    As to the question at hand, there's no question that a scope allows you to see your target better and, therefore, allows you to place your shot better. And there's also no question that the cost of a good scope has come way down while the quality of the optics has gone way up. Old eyes, hunting at dusk or dawn, some long range shooting matches, sure, but not every rifle needs a telescopic sight.
    I really don't understand why anybody would want to scope an SKS, an M1 Carbine or any other carbine. Screws up the balance. Screws up the balance on most milsurp rifles, ruins their value and most of 'em just aren't meant to have scopes. Why buy an as issued No. 4 Lee-Enfield, K98 or 1903A3 if you want a scoped rifle? Or spend the money for a sniper version of a milsurp.
     
  24. Sharps Shooter

    Sharps Shooter Member

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    Yeah, one might consider my scope a crutch. But then you'd have to consider my bifocals a crutch too. Not to mention the cane shaped shooting stick I rely on when I'm hunting because after years of hiking up and down mountains my knees got to hurting. So what? Lord willing, I'll still be up there on the side of a mountain trying to put a venison in the freezer this fall. I'll be the hunter with all the "crutches." :D
     
  25. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    It should be peoples', possessive of a group, not an individual

    Sorry, I couldn't resist! :D

    If there is an easier way out, most people will take it. I use a holosight and irons. My eyesight is still good (corrected) but I prefer the ease of the whizbang. I can still fall back on the irons however. I do about 50/50 in my shooting.

    You can't turn back the technology machine. People used to churn their own butter and build their own homes. Now you have 15 varieties of butter and not-butter...and homes have thermal-this and engineered-wood-that, Digital photography made everyone capable of photomanipulation whereas film photography took much more skill and knowledge to correct and photomanipulate.

    Many scopes provide something that open sights won't--magnification. Scopes provide the ability (on certain firearms) to hit targets a mile away...at minimum it increases the range compared to the naked eye. I don't think one can see a target a mile away with the naked eye, let alone hit it with a firearm using open sights. Yet, it doesn't exactly make it easier because with the addition of a scope, one has to learn how to mantain it, zero it, operate the turrets and whatnot.

    It adds a new dimension of complexity to the firearm...it doesn't necessarily make it the lazy way out. It offers the ability to gain an edge in longer distance shooting. Why not take advantage of it if you need that ability? To scold them is silly!

    Why do some people put 4' tall wings on 4-cylinder cars? I don't understand either but its great that people have the freedom to do weird things I'd never try :D
     
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