Have we lost our marksmanship roots?.....are scopes crutches?

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Have a friend, learned his shooting in the Marines. Very much better than average shot years ago. Problem is he cannot really see sights anymore. But won't admit it. Has a firm stand, "I can shoot better with sights than I can a scope." Well quite simply it can't be true.

And while he once shot exceptionally well with open sights, he doesn't anymore. Shoots a bit, complains he can usually do better etc. etc. I feel he probably could shoot darn close to as good as ever if he simply fixed his optical problem with a scope. You cannot aim if you cannot see your aiming device.

I feel his philosophy against scopes, and that real marksmen don't need them quite a shame. If he just got himself a decent scope, even a 4x or heck a 2.5x he could make out the crosshairs and put hits on target likes he knows he should. Even if he doesn't like crosshairs, he could get one of those post reticles.

I don't know where this prejudice that people using scopes are displaying lesser marksmanship comes from myself. It certainly isn't from the results possible. Quite simply it makes no sense.
 
Are scopes crutches? Of course not. They are simply a better sighting system for longer range shots. Dot sights are simply faster target aquisition sights for closer distances.

As for getting away from our roots, you have to remember that our roots are in guns that did not have sights. The earliest long guns carried into battle and early cannons had no sights. So our roots are in indexing along the barrel and point shooting.

Oh, and according to the picture, we are apparently using other 'crutches' today that we didn't use in the past. We have gotten away from black powder muzzle-loaded single shot to breech load cartridge-firing guns that include a several options in shooting (single, semi, and full auto) with 1 to many rounds carried onboard.
 
I take pride in shooting over iron sights, that's the way the Corps taught me and that is what I am comfortable with.

I will never need batteries or worry about scope glare with iron sights, and I can shoot with both eyes open.

But truthfully, I don't look at scopes as a crutch.

I personally have always had trouble using telescopes and binoculars, and I have trouble getting the right amount of eye relief on a standard rifle. That has made me less interested in scopes. I have trouble firing 10 shots in between cease fires because I can't see through the scope, it magnifies my movement, and I can only take getting punched in the face so many times before I get tired of it. But that is my personal issue, not the scope's fault. So for me, scopes are not worth the hassle.

But if I could comfortably use a scope, I would.

And reflex sights just make all kinds of sense to me.

So, while I love open sights, I think scopes are a great thing for everybody else.

And my vision won't always be perfect, so I gotta learn to use them eventually.
 
It should be peoples', possessive of a group, not an individual

Sorry, I couldn't resist!
-------------------------------------

Maybe you should have resisted.

Nouns such as people, that are plural in themselves, take a singular possessive form: people's, women's, children's, etc.

However, that spelling of "acquisition" caught my eye--but I'm not going to pick on a 16-year-old whose writing is far better than the average adult's.

(Sorry for the digression.)
 
A scope is just one part of a total delivery system...when the only question is simply...to hit your mark. Scopes are an option and options are not a loss, but a choice.... your ability is always directed by your choice.
 
I use scopes when hunting big game as in low light and just plain being able to see what exactly you are shooting at is a very important thing.

Am I better with a scope than irons sights?
Depends on what I am doing at the time I would guess.
I would use scopes for hunting, bench rest and a few other things as if you do not in most cases you are seriously handicaping yourself.
Now I am off to the the national rifle championships for a week on wed. and scopes are not allowed during the cmp week and if they were I know they would not win anyway as proven last year when the NRA allowed a scoped class. ( the scores were beaten by both match rifle and service rifle open sights in those 240 shots also).
In competitions its easy to see the difference as you take a very good rifle shooter with open sights and let him shoot the scoped equipment guys stuff ( The same exact as he does) and you are going to be a hell of alot closer than taking the scoped bench rest guy and letting him use your equipment in a xtc service rifle match.
 
Right now, all I have are iron sights. IMO, they're cheaper, harder to break, don't shift zero with temperature (enough to notice, anyhow), and are much less expensive than scopes. ;)

Also, nothing I own would benefit from a scope--but even when I had my modified Swede mauser, I was constantly disappointed because it had no provisions for irons. :(

Personally, I think that only using irons requires more skill than using glass.
 
Well, I concede that--especially on one point. My eyes are toric, and thus most rear-aperature irons look egg-shaped. :scrutiny: :uhoh: My contacts don't counteract this completely, so...

So I like a challenge :D
 
It's a Catch-22 currently

With many current rifles commercially produced there isn't the option to just go with open iron sights as they are made without them. You have to use a scope or other sighting device of some sort.

A scope helps with longer shots by providing better shot placement. This is good for hunting or precision target shooting. However, for most firearms activities, open sights really aren't that bad. I've used both for hunting and have been successful with standing shots at 100 yards.

What I can say is that with the rear apeture-front blade sights on my M-1 Garand are much more resistant to abuse than the variable power scope on my 12 gauge slug gun. I also don't have to worry about fogging them up like the scope.

I will say that some open iron sights are easier to line up and use for precision work than others. I have seen some examples of good ones and bad ones and I know which kind I prefer if I can't use a scope.
 
I like iron sights, but open sights are an abomination. I like aperture sights.
 
I like a standard transmission in my vehicles. My wife likes automatics. We can drive each others vehicles but prefer our own. The differences don't make either one of us a better driver. Different strokes for different folks.
 
I had a red dot on my Ruger 22/45 for a while, but got bored with it and went back to the really nice target sights. Much more fun.
Click to expand...

Me too. Scopes aren't just fun for me. The only gun of mine that is scoped is my deer gun. I had an SKS and my pistol scoped, and neither are anymore. Most of my guns are milsurp, too, they'd ruin the feel of the gun.

If God wanted me to shoot it, he'd have given me the eyes to see it :D

Nah, they are no more crutches than tools. If they make people better, I'm all for it.
 
Since I've started shooting highpower, I've got a newfound respect as to what iron sights can do. I don't necessarily think of scopes as a crutch, since I've seen hard guns do miracles with scoped and iron sighted rifles.
 
I have to have a scope

Now because of vision problems, but even when I was (much) younger I shot WAY better witha scope...My buddy have some nice aperture sighted gun, and I can shoot OK with those, but only out to 100 yards or so...I wouldn't even try a shot at a deer(let alone anything smaller) at 200 yrds without a scope, with at least some magnification...

To each their own, but I certainly don't consider a scope to be a "crutch"..
 
Look at a majority of the rifles being manufactured today. Synthetic, sightless hunting rifles. About the only way to get iron sights on anything between a .270 and a .375 is to go with a lever action "brush buster" that has a reputation of being a short distance rifle. I think it is more the reputation and manufacturing than the actual want and need.
 
When I first started shooting, over [groan] 35 years ago, I could consistantly hit a 12-0z soda can at 75 yards with my iron-sighted Nylon 66.

Now, I can't even SEE the soda can @75 Yds. :eek:


Closest I can find to the "Binocular-eyed" smiley...
 
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I had a student in class the other day tell me that we need to get laser sights for the M9 Beretta. I about fell on the floor with laughter. I then sternly told him that if he is unable to shoot with iron sights, a laser (NINJA Hi-Yah) was only going to make his shooting worse.

As for me I only have scopes on the weapons that need it. My 7mm RemMag and so on.
 
I'm hardly 16 years old, and I've been called "Grammar Nazi" before.
Click to expand...

Sure, red dot sights are nifty, but just isn't practical for use by people such as myself
Click to expand...
Subject-verb plurality agreement, anyone? :neener:

Yeah, just like everyone else, I couldn't resist. Apologies and whatnot.

In any event, I wouldn't go so far as to call scopes crutches unless someone can't hit a target at 25 yards without one. A scope allows a shooter to do things that iron sights don't: reliably hit targets at long ranges. Much though I respect modern snipers, I don't think anyone can "reach out and touch someone" from 2400 meters over iron sights (at least not intentionally). Whether or not a scope is a crutch depends, I think, on the shooter.

That being said, I, personally, don't care for the idea of using scopes. This goes hand-in-hand with my having no real interest in modern rifles; I like bolt-action rifles with wooden furniture; preferably ones that saw action in at least one World War.

(OTOH, when it comes to pistols, I'm into the "tactical tupperware"...go figure)
 
Bogie, I stand corrected.


I should have written:

for the vast majority of shooters, scopes do not change group sizes. But for benchrest shooters who consider shifts in their group sizes that are measured in tenths of an inch to be significant, they can change group size.

But then again, with the benchrest standard, stray gnat farts can significantly change group sizes.

hillbilly
 
I don't mind scopes, but I do think they can be somewhat of a crutch as it eliminates the need to practice the fundamentals of sight picture and sight alignment needed for irons.
 
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